Memorizing a Piece- How much time away from the piano?

[nickadams]

I want to memorize the piece to the point where I can basically read the music in my mind. Like if I want to look at the 9th measure, I can just scan to it in my brain and "read".

But it seems like even if I memorize a piece to the point where I can easily write it down from memory, when it comes time to play it, muscle memory takes over and makes it so I'm not "reading" from my head like I want to.

So what's the point of all my memorization away from the piano when I ultimately end up playing off of muscle memory and I could have built that up faster by just starting work at the piano to begin with?

[faulty_damper]

Recall.  Look at it, look away, and recall.  Then look back to see if you're correct.  The same applies to playing.  And test studying.

[nickadams]

Faulty damper, can you reply to this part perhaps:

But it seems like even if I memorize a piece to the point where I can easily write it down from memory, when it comes time to play it, muscle memory takes over and makes it so I'm not "reading" from my head like I want to.

So what's the point of all my memorization away from the piano when I ultimately end up playing off of muscle memory and I could have built that up faster by just starting work at the piano to begin with?

[faulty_damper]

You're not doing the recall of the former.  As in, you continue to recall the muscle memory, not the visual.

[theholygideons]

In the heat of the moment, and for maximum performance i believe muscle memory is priority.
However, if you want to prevent memory lapses and mistakes, then your spatial memory of the keyboard and hands, memory of the score, and audial memory can help to back it up. If you want to get good, you must practise away from the keyboard. Also our spatial and audial memories are much more power than muscle memory, and erodes far slower.

[nickadams]

In the heat of the moment, and for maximum performance i believe muscle memory is priority.
However, if you want to prevent memory lapses and mistakes, then your spatial memory of the keyboard and hands, memory of the score, and audial memory can help to back it up. If you want to get good, you must practise away from the keyboard. Also our spatial and audial memories are much more power than muscle memory, and erodes far slower.

So would it be a good plan to memorize say the 1st 8 measures away from the piano, then go to the piano and play the measures while focusing on "reading" the music from my head? Then go back to memorize the next 8 measures (but with a little overlap with the previous 8 to help with connectedness), and play them at the piano?

What exact method do you guys use? I'm new to this

[theholygideons]

Read about the Gieseking Leimer method.
just Google it, one of the first links is the pdf.
talks about picturing the keyboard in your head and searching for patterns, I haven't finished reading it though, but it's a good book of ideas to start with.

[dima_76557]

So what's the point of all my memorization away from the piano when I ultimately end up playing off of muscle memory and I could have built that up faster by just starting work at the piano to begin with?

Whatever known "trick" you apply to strengthen your memory for a piece, the intensity with which you do it is crucial, and not the procedure itself. EVERY note, every seemingly insignificant detail should have a purpose and should be played/practised with the greatest attention and intensity you can muster. If you can't even do that physically at the instrument, then "mental practice" is in itself just a waste of time.

[outin]

Are you sure you need to be able visualize the score while playing? Some concert pianists can do it, but many don't according to interviews. Research has shown that people's brain are structurally different and this has an effect on the cognitive functions. It is possible to modify the brain by extensive training, but it might be a really long and difficult process and there's no evidence that biological differences can be completely erased, especially after childhood.

It might be more useful to find your own individual method of creating more secure memorization by using the different memorizing strategies in a way that is most efficient to you.

[nickadams]

It might be more useful to find your own individual method of creating more secure memorization by using the different memorizing strategies in a way that is most efficient to you.

Can you describe some of these different strategies so I can try them out and see what suits me?

[gregh]

For what it's worth, I think it's common for people to be able to recite something from memory starting from the beginning or at set starting points, but getting into it at an arbitrary point is problematic. I can recite 24 digits of pi from memory, but I couldn't start at the tenth digit without silently running through the nine before it.

That aside... can you sing the ninth measure? You would want it to be the case that if you know what it sounds like you can play it.

[outin]

Can you describe some of these different strategies so I can try them out and see what suits me?

There have been many discussions on this before. For me the most efficient has been to learn to start from as many different spots as possible. That requires some extra thinking and concentration on those spots and the fingering and that's the only way for me to really securely memorize the piece. I usually memorize the technically hard parts without any special effort, simply because they require more concentration in the first place.

Another thing that is essential for me is to let the piece be partly forgotten a couple of times and relearn it.

I am probably the worst memorizer ever, so I've tried everything. I have noticed that I do have a "visual memory", but it's quite limited. It is quite slow and it does not work when I am doing something physical at the same time, like playing. Also it is not detailed enough, I can often see the image in my mind, but there are missing spots in it. So it's not something I could rely on.

Memory retrieval exercises cause me a headache, because I am not able to concentrate long enough on a single thought strain without feeling like my head is bursting. I've tried association techniques as well, but the associations tend to create too many new thoughts so that isn't very effective either. Meditation would probably be helpful, but I am not able to keep my over active mind restrained long enough to get anywhere with it.

My aural memory is the best, I never forget how the music sounds. So singing or hearing the music in my head while playing works, but I've noticed that I cannot often do it when stressed or tired.

Practicing to play with my eyes closed helps with my quite poor spatial memory.

I think "muscle memory" is very important in playing the piano and should not be treated as something bad. You just need to find ways to supplement it with something else, so that you won't get into trouble when it occasionally fails.

Yesterday my teacher asked me to play a piece I didn't bring with me, so I tried to play from memory. I had to restart a couple of times, but then I simply "emptied my head" and played without thinking, just hummed the tune in my head and I had no trouble. I noticed that the hard parts that I had worked a lot separately were not hard when I just let my muscle memory take over and didn't think about them. The issue for me is how to get into that state of mind without having to restart a few times