What to do to optimize chance of career in conducting?

[gapoc459]

I'm afraid this isn't exactly piano related... I'm a pianist, and I'm extremely interested in learning how to conduct, perhaps professionally. I am still in high school; I have talked to faculty in our music department, and our conductor offered to start giving me private lessons next term.

Basically, when I watch videos of Claudio Abbado or Leonard Bernstein, I just feel so inspired, I feel that that is what I really want to do. The problem is, I assume not many conductors get to be like Claudio Abbado or Leonard Bernstein... There's probably not more than, what, 100, 200 conductors in the world who are music directors of a very strong orchestra. The rest of them probably have to teach, or conduct several orchestras, or play their own instruments to make a living; a career prospect, which, although I would certainly enjoy, I do think I would be better off in another field.

So how do I know what my potential is, and what can I do to maximize it? Chances are, I won't be the next Dudamel or Harding, but I would love to try. I'm deeply passionate about music theory and music history, I'm multilingual (will be comfortable in Italian, French, and German by the time I'm midway through college), I memorize music extremely easily; but these seem like the more superficial qualities of a great conductor.

I apologize if my question is immature (or premature); it very well might be, but this seems like a life I would be thrilled to lead, and despite the odds, I want to try my best to snag a shot at it.

[falala]

I'm afraid this isn't exactly piano related... I'm a pianist, and I'm extremely interested in learning how to conduct, perhaps professionally. I am still in high school; I have talked to faculty in our music department, and our conductor offered to start giving me private lessons next term.

Basically, when I watch videos of Claudio Abbado or Leonard Bernstein, I just feel so inspired, I feel that that is what I really want to do. The problem is, I assume not many conductors get to be like Claudio Abbado or Leonard Bernstein... There's probably not more than, what, 100, 200 conductors in the world who are music directors of a very strong orchestra. The rest of them probably have to teach, or conduct several orchestras, or play their own instruments to make a living; a career prospect, which, although I would certainly enjoy, I do think I would be better off in another field.

Indeed. But it's also worth remembering that any decent conductor OUGHT to have a professional-level musical ability outside of just conducting too. Bernstein was a leading composer and could certainly play to a professional level, although it wasn't what he was most known for. Abbado didn't (AFAIK) play professionally, but he certainly studied piano and violin to a high level before specializing in conducting.

Real conducting is probably one of the most complex and advanced things you can do as a musician, so you need every ounce of general musical background supporting it. This also of course means that even if you don't become a world famous conductor, you may well have an interesting and satisfying musical life of which conducting is one aspect.

So how do I know what my potential is?

You don't. Nobody does. And people don't have predetermined potentials written for them like some kind of destiny. At least noone has ever found evidence of such a thing.

and what can I do to maximize it?

Same as with anything: get the highest quality tuition you can, and work like hell.

Chances are, I won't be the next Dudamel or Harding, but I would love to try. I'm deeply passionate about music theory and music history, I'm multilingual (will be comfortable in Italian, French, and German by the time I'm midway through college), I memorize music extremely easily; but these seem like the more superficial qualities of a great conductor.

On the contrary I'd say those are a great start. To add to that you need the highest playing skills you can get, and an absolutely first class ear. Aural, aural, aural. Work it until you can follow a score and hear EVERYTHING.

Oh, and people skills - very important too.

I apologize if my question is immature (or premature); it very well might be, but this seems like a life I would be thrilled to lead, and despite the odds, I want to try my best to snag a shot at it.

By far the hardest thing about becoming a conductor is getting experience. If you want to be a pianist or a violinist, you can sit in a room with your instrument for as many hours a day as it takes to become great. Of course there's performing experience as well, but just playing the instrument, which is the first step, you can do on your own.

Not so for conductors, and no matter how inspiring it all seems you never really know what it's like to conduct until you actually do it.

Do you have any possibility of gaining access to other young musicians like yourself? Not even necessarily an orchestra - you could just get eight or ten random instruments together, arrange something for them and conduct it. Are then any opportunities in your area that could feed into this? For example could you offer to play for a local amateur dramatic society or something, in return for them stumping up a little money to pay expenses for some of your friends to make a little band for their performance, that you conduct? Could you arrange something for some event at school and convince them to let you get people together and conduct it? (Arranging is a really important skill to go with conducting, and being able to do it well can open up a lot of possibilities).

I don't know the details of your situation so I'm just throwing ideas out, but the principle is: you need to look at what's around you and if it moves, conduct it! You need to apply initiative and imagination to making these situations happen, because they won't happen on their own. And you need to learn how to manage people in such tricky situations. You need to learn what makes it worthwhile for them to sit and be conducted by you - how you can keep them onside when you don't have money to pay them. That takes experience, and learning from your mistakes. So the sooner you start, the better!

Good luck.

[Bob]

Study scores.

Take conducting lessons.

Get a group to conduct (good luck).

Apprentice somewhere doing something so you can get in front of a decent group.

Put together your own group when you can't find anyone.  If you're in college, you might be able to get non-majors or music ed students on secondary instruments. 


One thing I remember, complaints/advice, for conducting is just to have an idea of what sound/concept you want to get across. 

Find a high school group, similar ideas.

[oxy60]

What you need to know is incredible. Many schools demand that you are able to play ALL of the orchestral instruments reasonably. Major, minor scales and a simple piece as a beginning.

[gvans]

You are to be congratulated on your vision and drive. Don't give up, keep at it.
In addition to the above comments (most of which are well taken), I would highly recommend studying "The Score, The Orchestra, and the Conductor" by Gustav Meier, among other books.

Dover Editions provides complete scores at very reasonable prices for many classic works; I would suggest studying these with recordings. 

Good luck, and keep us posted as to how the battle goes. 

[Bob]

A couple ideas I heard that are interesting/useful....

Buy everything you see related to the topic.  I'm thinking books/videos.  You can collect articles.  You build up your own how-to library.

Buy your own scores.  Create your own repertoire library.

Have a teacher, sure, but do more than what they say.  Work on your own stuff.  Don't just follow what the teacher says or they might hold you back.

[timothy42b]

Start small.

Conducting a handbell choir was my first experience. 

[knoxville]

I'm a conducting masters student, and I've got one piece of advice for you:

CONDUCT ALL THE TIME

Seriously, do all the eartraining and score study that people here have suggested. You have to be good at all of that to be able to completely understand and internalize the music. Study conducting technique, listen to music all the time, read all the clefs and transpositions, but none of that will REALLY prepare you for getting in front of an ensemble. Experience is the best teacher. You need to conduct as many groups as possible in order to find out what works and what doesn't. You need to run a ton of rehearsals to develop efficiency in communication, which is the skill your players value the most.

Start your own group, pay your friends in beer and pizza to play for you.  Contact your local community orchestra. GET TO CONDUCTING, SON

[gapoc459]

Sorry to revive this thread. Some really great responses! I'm taking private lessons from our school's conductor, and I've already bought thousands of pages worth of Dover scores.

Obviously, there's a lot of material I can try to consume on my own, and with the help of my music teachers, but looking ahead to college/conservatory... I'm about 95% sure that I want to pursue a career in music (and conducting attracts me the most, though I'm still quite interested in composition and piano performance). I just don't know what I should focus on over the next few years: whether I should hone my piano ability as much as possible and go to conservatory as a pianist (or collaborative pianist?), or whether I should focus on academics and go to an academic school with a strong music program (ideally Yale, but there are many, more realistic options). Given that there's no undergraduate major for conducting, I'm just confused as to what's the best route to take over the next few years.


I didn't want to start a new thread, because I couldn't really find a subforum where this could fit. Do you guys know of any reasonably high level music fora that are not focused on piano, or is it fine to post questions like this here?

[awesom_o]

I would recommend you study piano performance or collaborative piano.
Do you play any other instruments?

You need to become disgustingly good at reading scores, if you want to have any chance of being a conductor.

I suggest you find a partner and take up 4 hands playing immediately. Much of the mainstream orchestral repertoire can be played by two pianists on a single piano.

Familiarizing yourself with the repertoire in this way will do many good things for your musicianship that will transfer directly to conducting, composition, and piano performance.

[gapoc459]

I'm planning on taking up violin lessons starting in the fall. I will also join our concert choir.

What exactly do collaborative piano programs teach? Are they harder or easier to get into than piano programs?

Are there any books on sight reading and score reading that I should try study? or is it really just a matter of practice (I'm doing a lot already; reading Beethoven quartets, etc.)?

[awesom_o]

Usually, you have to study piano performance first for undergrad. Collaborative degrees come later, although I obviously don't know how it works at every single school.

Honestly, becoming proficient at reading takes quite a bit of practice. It's important that you practice the right way, however, otherwise it can be easy to simply re-enforce bad habits rather than develop good ones.

The good habit which you are trying to develop is the habit of playing with extremely beautiful sound and fantastic rhythm, without looking down at your hands.

[Bob]

Learn all the instruments.  That's another big part.


For forums... I haven't run across a conducting forum, but I haven't looked either...  MENC/Nafme has forums but they tend to wipe out their entire forum every few years.

[falala]

Sorry to revive this thread. Some really great responses! I'm taking private lessons from our school's conductor, and I've already bought thousands of pages worth of Dover scores.

Obviously, there's a lot of material I can try to consume on my own, and with the help of my music teachers, but looking ahead to college/conservatory... I'm about 95% sure that I want to pursue a career in music (and conducting attracts me the most, though I'm still quite interested in composition and piano performance). I just don't know what I should focus on over the next few years: whether I should hone my piano ability as much as possible and go to conservatory as a pianist (or collaborative pianist?), or whether I should focus on academics and go to an academic school with a strong music program (ideally Yale, but there are many, more realistic options).

Do the first, without a doubt. Being a good pianist, even if you're not a great one, will massively increase the number of ways you can get into conducting. You could play in pit orchestras and work up to deputy MD work on the way to MDing. You could do repetiteur work for an opera or ballet company. You could accompany choirs, and then take over conducting when the regular conductor isn't there.

Generally this is how it works. The piano is the instrument of the general music "centrepiece", "creative hub" or "leader" - it's the instrument for composing at, arranging at, playing arrangements on to show people how they go, training singers from, accompanying choirs, playing reductions for opera or musical rehearsals etc. etc. These are the things that lead to conducting. By doing them, you get to understand the knowledge and skills involved, meet the right people and get yourself into the right circumstances to catch a break.

Most conductors are at least decent pianists. The exceptions are those who are very good on another instrument and go into conducting with a speciality based around that instrument - like brass players becoming brass band leaders, violinists leading and then conducting a chamber orchestra etc.

I also second the suggestions awesome has given.

I'm planning on taking up violin lessons starting in the fall. I will also join our concert choir.

Do you have a good natural voice? Using that would be a GREAT way of getting wider ensemble experience that could lead to conducting opportunities as well as fantastic general ear training. And without requiring stupid amounts of practice or catching up with child prodigies who have been doing it since they were 3.

[falala]

Are there any books on sight reading and score reading that I should try study? or is it really just a matter of practice (I'm doing a lot already; reading Beethoven quartets, etc.)?

I used this and it's very good:

https://www.amazon.com/Preparatory-Exercises-Reading-Vorbereitende-Partiturlesen/dp/019321475X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396791509&sr=1-1&keywords=morris+score+reading

Pretty old though. Not that that's a problem in itself - just that there may well be more useful things on the market now, including CDs, multimedia or whatever.

[gapoc459]

So say I get into a conservatory for piano (especially a high pressure, competitive one eg. Juilliard). Am I allowed to take courses in orchestration and conducting? Are piano majors not expected to be working towards a career as a pianist?

A lot of fantastic conductors (Bernstein, more recently Alan Gilbert) went the college (Harvard) route. I'm sure there is more of an intellectual atmosphere at such places than at conservatories, or does it not matter?


Also, how hard is it to get into most conservatories? I know Curtis, Juilliard, and Eastman have ridiculous acceptance rates (like 4, 7, and 13 percent, no?), but besides that, most schools have acceptance rates well above 20 or 30...

[falala]

There's a problem with how much relevant advice I can give you as I'm UK-based so some things are quite different. I'm equating your "conservatory" to our "music college" and your "college (eg Harvard) to our "University" - which is probably broadly accurate, but not necessary accurate in detail. So I'll say what I can with that caveat, but any American members here might want to correct me on anything I get wrong.

So say I get into a conservatory for piano (especially a high pressure, competitive one eg. Juilliard). Am I allowed to take courses in orchestration and conducting? Are piano majors not expected to be working towards a career as a pianist?

Yes, of course you can take such courses - although how many, what they are exactly etc. will depend on the individual institution, and would be a good thing to research in making your decision. But training as a piano major doesn't mean just doing piano all day. There'll be theory classes, aural etc, and as you move up the years these will involved making choices according to what your interests are.

Having said that, conducting can be a difficult thing to get going even at conservatory level because there'll be other people wanting to do it, and few opportunities to actually DO it (as opposed to just studying the theory of it). They can't just throw the school orchestra open to whoever wants to conduct it; the kids playing in it are there to be led and taught by qualified experienced conductors.

You can do it, but again it takes a lot of self-starting, confidence and sheer balls. Sweet talk people, bribe them, make tit-for-tat deals with them and just generally do whatever you have to do to get 10 or more people together in a room with their instruments, willing to be your guinea pig. Just don't expect it to be easy.

A lot of fantastic conductors (Bernstein, more recently Alan Gilbert) went the college (Harvard) route. I'm sure there is more of an intellectual atmosphere at such places than at conservatories, or does it not matter?

That may be so, I don't know. Bernstein was obviously a great pianist before he went there though. Only part of this is about the educational route; the greater part of it is about the fact that you ought to be a good pianist and get practical musical experience if you want to be a conductor ANYWAY.

My prejudice is that people who try to go into conducting via an academic, university-type music degree without substantial practical experience behind them, lack the necessary skills to properly "think music" on the fly, in realtime, the way a conductor needs to. Conducting a group, getting the aural feedback as you do it, adjusting accordingly and shaping a realtime performance are much more like playing an instrument than they are like reading a book or even analysing a score. The reading and analysing are great and necessary background studies, but when push comes to shove MAKING music is MAKING music. It's a realtime activity, and the only way to learn it is to do it.

But there's no reason why someone with decent practical skills already, and the desire and determination to keep developing them, couldn't use a university music department environment to their advantage as I described above just as much as a conservatory one.

Also, how hard is it to get into most conservatories? I know Curtis, Juilliard, and Eastman have ridiculous acceptance rates (like 4, 7, and 13 percent, no?), but besides that, most schools have acceptance rates well above 20 or 30...

How long is a piece of string?  

The question is more: Once you get below a certain level of quality in the institution and consequent difficulty getting accepted, is it really worth your time and money to spend three or four years studying there?

If I were you I'd start finding out about particular institutions of both kinds; what they do; who's studied there etc. etc. For now, work hard at the piano and get as good as you can, while seeing if you can get some conducting experience as discussed here. But don't stress to much about the details of where you'll be going in X number of years. Both routes contain plenty of potential advantages and opportunities.

How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

[Bob]

Are you going for orchestra conducting? (Or band?)

[gapoc459]

Wow, falala, incredible response! Thank you.

I am 16. Sophomore in high school, so almost two years before college auditions/applications. And yes, probably orchestral conducting (and opera (if there's any companies left by the time I get there...)).

[Bob]

Tell your high school teacher.  Get some experience that way.  Experience plus something to stick on your conducting resume.  Maybe take lessons from that person -- That will get your foot in the door for doing something with their group and it will get you a recommendation for college. 

See if there are any regional orchestras.  Same idea.  Get some experience.  Get a recommendation.