Exploring fingering hands together

[1piano4joe]

I've read many posts here about hands separate for technique and speed considerations according to Chang and other posts about hands together for coordination according to Bernhard.

I am aware many forum users don't bother with hands separate at all or only do it occasionally.

Personally, I use hands separate since I am only an intermediate and usually get good results with this method of learning.

What I would like to know is this. If hands together establishes muscle memory then is there a way to try out fingering hands together without causing this muscle memory?

Generally, I work out the fingering hands separately so there is no concern about muscle memory. However, I'm finding more and more now that (since my skills have improved somewhat) fingering and movement that I have used hands separately, that are economical and allow for great speed, actually don't work so great once the hands go together.

Do I just try fingerings hands together and decide whether or not they are any good with as few as possible repetitions? I find this difficult to do since to play at tempo can require some time. I use the 7 repetitions and 20 minutes to master rule. This forum taught me I can and will have done hundreds of repetitions in that time. So, if after 20 minutes (on average) I am not at tempo then what do I do? Do I attempt to try a different fingering even though my first "trial fingering" is now ingrained?

Nothing confuses the motor centers more according to this forum and I couldn't agree more. I get "married" to my fingering. For better, for worse. Divorce is so ugly. I have had to "start over" by "relearning hands together fingering" when I made a bad choice. I really, really don't like it.

What do the "hands together people from the outset" do? Is it correct to assume that these are highly competent, accomplished pianists playing advanced repertoire? Do they just make solid fingering choices from experience so muscle memory is not an issue? Is the ability to learn hands together related to good sight reading skills? If "Pros" are sight reading hands together at tempo then how does that help me?

I don't have "Pro" sight reading skills. Also, I am still learning technique even after many years of study as each piece brings new challenges. So what does an amateur like me with limited skills do?

Any tips, suggestions or recommendations as always are greatly appreciated, Joe.

[hfmadopter]

I generally do HT, if there are exceptionally rough spots I work on them HS and then bring them back together again. Sometimes in doing HS I find a new pattern or I should say a different and better working pattern. I don't think you need to be locked into one method vs the other method.

I can only speak for myself but I doubt I have ever worked something up to speed in 20 minutes of practice. Perhaps 20 minutes of hard practice after 20 days of getting it all together in the first place. It really depends on the level of the piece and if it's something I get along with ( certain musical forms just come naturally, others do not).

Ok here is a for instance. I've been working on this piece for nearly two weeks, it's basically all together now and ready for the correct tempo. There are two rough spots in the piece, so I broke those down into HS work. Low and behold, the issue I thought was in the left hand all along is actually in the right ! I was not finding that out HT. I corrected that issue and now good to go. So HS has value. My teacher taught this way, mostly HT but work out the rough spots HS, that was perhaps 35 years ago now.

Hands separate is nothing more than a tool. Sometimes you just have to stop working on something and take a different approach.

[timothy42b]

For the kind of music I play (hymns mostly) it is really common to have to catch bass clef notes in the right hand or treble in the left.

So if I start HS it's going to be wasted when I realize I have to finger it differently.

I start HT, then alternate with HS once I'm sure how I want to finger it.  I do the HS significantly faster than HT.  I would admit that sometimes I do it exactly twice as fast, but that might cause my stalker to appear. 

[outin]

What do the "hands together people from the outset" do? Is it correct to assume that these are highly competent, accomplished pianists playing advanced repertoire?

In my case no. I just find it easier to learn the hands together first to figure out how everything goes together and then return to HS later if I need to work on a specific spot.

Do they just make solid fingering choices from experience so muscle memory is not an issue?

I was worried about this too in the beginning, but then I noticed that my muscle memory is so flexible that it's really not a problem. I actually often change fingerings when the pieces mature and I notice that I am not getting the sound I want or there's tension. It usually takes me only a few sessions to reprogram. Don't know if this problem is generally overrated or if I am a freak. Maybe it's just my unreliable memory...

But of course good fingerings start coming more naturally after playing similar figures before.

Is the ability to learn hands together related to good sight reading skills?

Obviously not, since my sight reading skills are pathetic.

[j_menz]

I do pretty much exclusively HT, and have done since I was a raw beginner.  I also do a lot of sightreading, so have a pretty well developed fingering-on-the-fly sense.

Of course, some pieces require more thought, and if I am spending more time on a piece I will sort out some of the fudges that that on-the-fly method didn't resolve optimally.

One of the disadvantages of this is that I tend to have poor muscle memory of pieces, and find myself swapping fingering even when I shouldn't. The advantage, of course, is that I can read a lot of repertoire.

[ted]

This is a very intriguing question as far as improvisation goes. For pure technique, on my silent clavier, I almost always work on each hand separately. However, during playing, when ideas come thick and fast, the sensation is that I am playing with one big hand of ten fingers, with any finger doing duty anywhere.

Also, I don't know exactly how the brain allocates left and right hand function, but some mighty funny properties surface while playing sometimes. Why is it so much more difficult to play synchronous but hand-independent finger striking in staccato than legato ? For instance, coordinating broken scale passages in two keys at once is dead easy in connected fashion but a real test in pure staccato. Well, it is for me, not that I'm really an example of anything.

The only reason I can come up with is that the former lends itself to processing in groups, while the latter demands thinking in separate notes, but I don't really know. Generally speaking, in answer to the original question, I do both, but reserve separate practice for purely physical issues.