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Topic: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?  (Read 2197 times)

Offline ranniks

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Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
on: November 14, 2013, 07:27:48 PM


In terms of difficulty, which pieces are similar to the above rendition of an OST? Also, let's say that student A wants to learn the above piece with ease, what pieces would give him the weapons to tackle it?

For instance, piece X could give him the quickness while piece Y the technique and on and on.

Suggestions would be very welcome.

If I can learn to play this piece, people will be blown away. Not only that, I'll be blown away completely.

Edit:

FYI, I intend to play this piece in the future when I have the skills. That could very well be 3-5-x years from now.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #1 on: November 14, 2013, 11:36:54 PM
I'm detecting shades of Liberace here.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline rubato22

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 12:18:31 AM
All 3 movements of Beethoven's Pathetique I'd say just for starters, that is seriously good and same difficult!

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 12:26:43 AM
All 3 movements of Beethoven's Pathetique I'd say just for starters, that is seriously good and same difficult!

I would agree with this, and add that in order to cover this version more-or-less directly, note for note, you'd also probably be looking at being able to get through 3-4 Chopin Etudes fairly well.

Offline rubato22

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 10:24:42 AM
I would agree with this, and add that in order to cover this version more-or-less directly, note for note, you'd also probably be looking at being able to get through 3-4 Chopin Etudes fairly well.

And I would agree with that too! I nearly added the full set/s of both etudes to my reply but didn't want to sound pedantic, however true. Could OP tell us what the potential student is playing now? May be better to try write a simplified version of that piece, unless he/she is already playing complete sonatas etc.

Offline tdawe

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 01:33:41 PM
I'm detecting shades of Liberace here.

Indeed!  :-\

And truthfully - one Liberace was more than enough for the world...  ::)
Musicology student & amateur pianist
Currently focusing on:
Shostakovich Op.87, Chopin Op.37, Misc. Bartok

Offline ranniks

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 05:54:35 PM
Are you all serious? Is what he is doing that end-piano-playing material? Wow.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 07:07:56 PM
Are you all serious? Is what he is doing that end-piano-playing material? Wow.
He's playing a lot of material there Ranniks. Also consider your rhythm issues, do you think you could handle even the intro section?
My other reply was tongue in cheek, regarding you wanting to impress people with this piece. You aren't ready, plain and simple as that. Don't try to be another Liberace, he was a master at all the glitter etc. and then some. While most people would consider him having been a moderate pianist.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline ranniks

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
He's playing a lot of material there Ranniks. Also consider your rhythm issues, do you think you could handle even the intro section?
My other reply was tongue in cheek, regarding you wanting to impress people with this piece. You aren't ready, plain and simple as that. Don't try to be another Liberace, he was a master at all the glitter etc. and then some. While most people would consider him having been a moderate pianist.

I have absolutely no idea who Liberace is. I googled him and apparently he was this successful pianist who made a lot of money.

I have not a doubt in mind that I could learn this piece though, starting today.

The only question remaining is how long it would take.

That includes getting over any rhythm issues that I have.

My reasoning is: dedicate 2 hours a day on this piece for the next 12 months.  I won't be able to play it at the video's level, but definitely around there somewhere. My approach would be note for note. If I did 3 notes each day, that would still be over 1000 notes in a year. I don't think this piece has a thousand notes to begin with.

Also, in the opening post I have not said that I wanted to learn this piece right now. I was asking questions on where to begin to learn this piece, in other words putting blood sweat and tears into it. That may well be over 5 years from now or 10. There will still be people to be blown away then I hope.

Offline alpacinator1

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 08:18:32 PM
2:59

Someone's been playing the Waldstein  ;D

Quote
I don't think this piece has a thousand notes to begin with.

Yes it does.
Working on:
Beethoven - Waldstein Sonata
Bach - C minor WTC I
Liszt - Liebestraume no. 3
Chopin - etude 25-12

Offline ranniks

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 08:40:35 PM
2:59

Someone's been playing the Waldstein  ;D

Yes it does.

Fine, I would learn 6 notes of this piece each day for 1 year, that equals  6 * 365 = 6*300 + 6*60 + 6*5 = 1800 + 360 + 30 = 2190 notes in total. I would finish this piece then and if not, come very close to.

But I'm not going to. Instead I'll be learning a decent amount of level 2-3 grade stuff with one grade 5 piece along the way. That way I'll be having a strong fundament to tackle harder pieces like this one. Although, this one will need a lot of work.

It's not bad to have a goal, even if some deem it unrealistic.

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 09:28:44 PM
2:59

Someone's been playing the Waldstein  ;D

Yes it does.

That guys been playing lots of things and he didn't start doing it last year.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline tdawe

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 11:49:00 PM
Why would someone dedicate a year of solid practice to this? If you haven't realised that this is terrible after a year you may need to be committed.
Musicology student & amateur pianist
Currently focusing on:
Shostakovich Op.87, Chopin Op.37, Misc. Bartok

Offline outin

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #13 on: November 16, 2013, 07:04:23 AM
I have absolutely no idea who Liberace is.

I guess us older folks all know who he is (certain images will forever be ingrained in the mind), but not everyone knows he started as a classical pianist.


I have not a doubt in mind that I could learn this piece though, starting today.

The only question remaining is how long it would take.

That includes getting over any rhythm issues that I have.

My reasoning is: dedicate 2 hours a day on this piece for the next 12 months.  I won't be able to play it at the video's level, but definitely around there somewhere. My approach would be note for note. If I did 3 notes each day, that would still be over 1000 notes in a year. I don't think this piece has a thousand notes to begin with.

I don't think it works like that. The more one studies the piano the more clear it becomes that the note by note approach will fail in more complex/technically demanding material.

I thought at some point that I could learn Chopin Etude 10-2 this way, but all I got was sore hands. And I didn't even try to play in tempo  ;D

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #14 on: November 16, 2013, 11:13:45 AM
Why would someone dedicate a year of solid practice to this? If you haven't realised that this is terrible after a year you may need to be committed.

Ya I'm not a fan of everything that goes on in the piece but it would be technically challenging non the less to a less than advanced player. There is a lot going on in it. How much value there is in the piece is up to the OP though. Only he can decide that for himself. I wouldn't care to do it, nor do I feel that I could currently handle the piece myself. And I did Pathetique in recital and studied a few Chopin Etudes, as people are suggesting as a minimum requirement to tackle this one. That was at about 8 years into my piano study of 11 years. I know my limitations and that was a long time ago.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline ranniks

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #15 on: November 16, 2013, 11:49:31 AM
I guess us older folks all know who he is (certain images will forever be ingrained in the mind), but not everyone knows he started as a classical pianist.

I don't think it works like that. The more one studies the piano the more clear it becomes that the note by note approach will fail in more complex/technically demanding material.

I thought at some point that I could learn Chopin Etude 10-2 this way, but all I got was sore hands. And I didn't even try to play in tempo  ;D

But surely learning several notes a day could work? I'm a firm believer in hard work....It's taxing though.

Well, you can play the raindrop prelude Outin, that is marvelous to me.

It was never my intention to suggest that I wanted to learn this piece now......It shouldn't be bad to talk about future piano goals.

Offline outin

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #16 on: November 16, 2013, 12:04:39 PM
But surely learning several notes a day could work? I'm a firm believer in hard work....It's taxing though.

But hard work isn't enough when the right kind of work and specific skill is needed. You know that it's not just about finding the right notes, but how to use your whole body in the right way to play them and how to use your mind to assess what the right way is.

If you had a teacher who would make it his priority for you to learn this one piece, then probably possible. But when would you learn all the other pieces then?

To me hard work at the piano sounds like forcing something... Forcing something is not the way to learn to play, that I found out pretty early...

Well, you can play the raindrop prelude Outin, that is marvelous to me.

Never played that, you must be confusing me with someone else  ???

It was never my intention to suggest that I wanted to learn this piece now......It shouldn't be bad to talk about future piano goals.

Of course not!
I just think it's good to make wise decisions about when it's the right time to start the actual work. Teacher's are there to help with that :)

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #17 on: November 16, 2013, 08:35:47 PM

But I'm not going to. Instead I'll be learning a decent amount of level 2-3 grade stuff with one grade 5 piece along the way. That way I'll be having a strong fundament to tackle harder pieces like this one. Although, this one will need a lot of work.

It's not bad to have a goal, even if some deem it unrealistic.

Ranniks, I apologize for not haven followed the theme of your topic more reliably than I did at the outset of your thread. And certainly it's good to have goals but indeed, realistic must also enter the equation. You have many lofty goals already.

Additionally, learn and play your music because you love it and to make it sound the way you love it, not for the wow factor of your listener. If the lower 2 and 3 grade pieces don't have what you need in them to feel that way, find chord structure and dynamics in them to work on. The wow will come through on it's own with time. And at that you will still never please everyone. You have quite some ways to go yet before you need to be concerned about this aspect of piano.

Once again, as some of us have been doing from the start last year, I suggest you start perfecting your music at lower levels. Really make them sound musical. I feel absolute #1 on the list should be to fix up your rhythm issues. That is going to derail everything you work on and fixing it will improve everything you work on. Stay on it, it's not natural to you yet so you have to stick with it !
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline kalirren

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #18 on: November 17, 2013, 04:07:55 AM
This video wins my award for being unpretentious and wonderful.  That player is having balls-out fun and is being quietly, cleanly precise about it.  Serious piano skills at work.

Edit:  And good quality of recording, too.  Seriously, who -is- this guy?  Has Square/Nintendo hired him yet?
Beethoven: An die Ferne Geliebte
Franck: Sonata in A Major
Vieuxtemps: Sonata in Bb Major for Viola
Prokofiev: Sonata for Flute in D Major

Offline tdawe

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #19 on: November 17, 2013, 04:14:14 PM
Oh, I don't doubt that the technique required by the piece is very high level. I just question how valuable it is as a piece of music.  Perhaps I am being pretentious but if you are going to expend that much effort you may as well approach one of the masterpieces of the piano.
Musicology student & amateur pianist
Currently focusing on:
Shostakovich Op.87, Chopin Op.37, Misc. Bartok

Offline outin

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #20 on: November 17, 2013, 05:03:35 PM
Oh, I don't doubt that the technique required by the piece is very high level. I just question how valuable it is as a piece of music.  Perhaps I am being pretentious but if you are going to expend that much effort you may as well approach one of the masterpieces of the piano.

But the value of a piece of music for OP can only be judged by himself...The "masterpieces" are already played a lot and have been recorded countless of times. I certainly want to learn some of them, but I also want to explore less known music. I didn't start learning piano just to play what everyone else does, I want to be able to find new gems :)

Offline lilla

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #21 on: November 17, 2013, 06:30:02 PM
Considering all that has been stated so far, I would add one suggestion.  And this is what I suggest to my students who are struggling to polish a piece of music.  Estalish the form of music - Theme, part A, Part B, PartA1, Ending/Coda, or the more established sonatina forms (recapitulation, etc.  Pick a part of the piece that you feel is doable.  Practice only that part, slowly, getting it correct, and then attempting tempo as written if possible. Memorize it.  That way you will have a nice selection of music to play, representing the entire piece which may never come you way in it's entirety.  It's another way to take it step by step and feel that you have accomplished something.  And to be able to play something great-sounding 

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #22 on: November 17, 2013, 06:30:59 PM
Oh, I don't doubt that the technique required by the piece is very high level. I just question how valuable it is as a piece of music.  Perhaps I am being pretentious but if you are going to expend that much effort you may as well approach one of the masterpieces of the piano.

To the OP it is obviously very valuable. I play some music that I love and that others may find little value in. It's personal. I like some new age and hymnal type music that many may not be able to get into but that I enjoy playing. I even like working up Christmas Carols, I started last month for this Christmas Eve. You might think I'm crazy but I get a great feeling working on Christmas Carols ! Piano is about enjoyment and about being heard to me and some things get right to my soul or heart if you will, and it doesn't have to be Pathetique to get there ( though it could be that just as well). Ranniks likes some of these Japanese cartoon pieces. So be it.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline ranniks

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #23 on: November 17, 2013, 09:07:35 PM
As Outin and David say. :)

The uploader of the transcription has this to say in the description of his video:

Quote
I've put all my skill and dedication into this piece, because I wanted this transcription to be the pinnacle of my transcribing activity, a summary of my pianistic skill, in order to give the term "anime sheet" a new meaning, taking it to the next level.

And with this, I can retire now in satisfaction.
See you next time

No wonder.....

Offline tdawe

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #24 on: November 17, 2013, 11:01:57 PM
I don't want to derail OP's thread into a discussion about relative musical value but I would like to confirm that by masterpiece I did not necessarily mean overplayed 'pop' classical music (perhaps I should have chosen a less loaded term). I assure you there is plenty of fantastic music that is not played enough, for example, Dutilleux's Piano Sonata. It's true I suppose that a lot of the less popular 'masterpieces' probably require a certain level of theoretical knowledge to fully appreciate. That said, philosophers (and musicologists) have been debating taste for centuries and never reached a satisfactory conclusion thus I cede..!

As it stands - I apologise for my earlier comment - it was certainly snippy and unnecessary.
Musicology student & amateur pianist
Currently focusing on:
Shostakovich Op.87, Chopin Op.37, Misc. Bartok

Offline outin

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #25 on: November 18, 2013, 04:45:32 AM
I don't want to derail OP's thread into a discussion about relative musical value but I would like to confirm that by masterpiece I did not necessarily mean overplayed 'pop' classical music (perhaps I should have chosen a less loaded term). I assure you there is plenty of fantastic music that is not played enough, for example, Dutilleux's Piano Sonata. It's true I suppose that a lot of the less popular 'masterpieces' probably require a certain level of theoretical knowledge to fully appreciate. That said, philosophers (and musicologists) have been debating taste for centuries and never reached a satisfactory conclusion thus I cede..!

But it's always an interesting topic to discuss...It's quite normal for PS threads to go all over the place :)

Since securing the status of a masterpiece requires not only musical depth but also time and acceptance by elitist groups, I do not hold that status that high myself.

Another thing is that perfection can be a little boring, so I find some lesser works very pleasing, although I would never consider them masterpieces.  [/quote]

Offline j_menz

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #26 on: November 18, 2013, 04:59:41 AM
Another thing is that perfection can be a little boring, so I find some lesser works very pleasing, although I would never consider them masterpieces. 

Not sure that it's perfection per se that's boring, just that "great art" is often an exploration of great universal themes. Sometimes we need a break from that.

In m,y experience, everyone who reads great literature also has their secret stash of light reading; every serious student of film has their secret stash of schlock horror/cheesy comedy/ethel merman films. And everyone who has a love of serious music also has their collection of cheesy pop/accordian polkas/dubstep.  The people who sneer most at these little diversions are generally the people who also are most likely to avoid the worthy.

** Notes your addition of Telemann to your "fun".  Bach isn't far off.  :D
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #27 on: November 18, 2013, 05:23:11 AM
** Notes your addition of Telemann to your "fun".  Bach isn't far off.  :D
There's still a huge gorge with no bridge between... ;)

Offline j_menz

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #28 on: November 18, 2013, 05:29:35 AM
There's still a huge gorge with no bridge between... ;)

Telemann -> Vivaldi -> Bach's Concerto Transcriptions of Vivaldi -> Bach's own work.

Or you could try this one:

"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #29 on: November 18, 2013, 05:50:43 AM
Telemann -> Vivaldi -> Bach's Concerto Transcriptions of Vivaldi -> Bach's own work.

Or you could try this one:



I may not care for Bach, but Vivaldi I cannot stand :o

Offline hfmadopter

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Re: Comparing this piece to a classical piece, which one?
Reply #30 on: November 18, 2013, 10:21:33 AM
I don't want to derail OP's thread into a discussion about relative musical value but I would like to confirm that by masterpiece I did not necessarily mean overplayed 'pop' classical music (perhaps I should have chosen a less loaded term). I assure you there is plenty of fantastic music that is not played enough, for example, Dutilleux's Piano Sonata. It's true I suppose that a lot of the less popular 'masterpieces' probably require a certain level of theoretical knowledge to fully appreciate. That said, philosophers (and musicologists) have been debating taste for centuries and never reached a satisfactory conclusion thus I cede..!

As it stands - I apologise for my earlier comment - it was certainly snippy and unnecessary.

Sometimes people just really like another whole genre of music to express themselves in, in addition to classical.

It's ok, I put in the Liberace spin in this thread and I don't think the OP expected it from me ( we,  and a few others here go back to his beginning piano lessons, he has conferred in us over the last 18 months or so). It's natural that someone would follow the comment and as mentioned, threads do tend to wander !! He will weed through and get what he wants from the thread.
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.
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