Too late to be a concert pianist?

[snoa]

So a bit of background:
I'm 18, going to college soon to major in CompSci, also going to flight school to get my pilot's license so I can be an airline pilot. I've been a musician since I was around 4, and have played various instruments. I've got mainly a jazz/blues/funk background and am definitely an emotional player (as in, I think of music more in terms of how it feels and flows, and the moods/vibes/colors it gives off, and less in theory terms, though I do know more than my fair share of theory). My first instrument was piano, but I stopped playing that when I was 12 and have just started playing again about a month ago. I guess I'm progressing pretty quickly through it, I've already started tackling these two songs:

The latter I'm working on as a transitory piece to Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# Minor, since my teacher said the pieces were fairly similar in that they're pretty chord heavy, and not really all flowy and melodic like the song in the first video (Yes I'm sure there are pieces that are more similar, but she was just looking at the pieces I brought with me) and is easy enough for me to get to work on while still being a bit of a challenge. I mostly teach myself how to play these songs. I mean I practice 45 minutes every day for 5 days a week, and music lessons are only twice a month for 30 minutes each so I kind of have to; but my music teacher does an awesome job at helping me with my technique, giving me tips and song recommendations, and keeping me on the right path as well as integrating what I learn in her classes with what I learn in my bass guitar lessons (which I take on the weeks in-between piano lessons) Sometimes I manage to surprise her in the ways I play the music, and she'll occasionally say things like "Jeez, I need to start thinking about my pieces like that more often" xD So I guess you'd say I'm an above-average musician, I tend to accelerate pretty quickly at the beginning. Right now my main problems are getting the melody to show (I'm a lefty so the harmony is always overpowering since that's my stronger hand, and sometimes the lower notes in a chord will drown out the top note, which is sometimes supposed to be the melody).

Thing is, I REALLY love piano, it's something I can pour my heart in to. I mean, I love every instrument I play, but piano really hits me differently, which is weird because I wouldn't even say it's the nicest sounding instrument or the easiest to just pick up and play, and I wanna know, is it too late to make a semi-respectable career as a concert pianist? Of course it'd be a side-gig, something I'd do in my free time (which as a pilot, I'll have a decent amount of). I'm not saying I want to be playing at Carnegie every week, but maybe as good as Kyle Landry, with a decent-sized fan-base, tours every now and then, maybe even accompany an orchestra or two. I'd also love to play the organ, but that's an entirely different beast (also don't have access to one now that my grandma sold hers ;-;)...

I also don't have any formal training in music besides local music teachers. I've always scoffed when people say things like "Oh I went to Julliard" or "I'm a Grade 8 pianist" or whatever. I always thought that music is something you don't/shouldn't need something that formal or regulated for in terms of teaching, I believe it should be something that's mainly self-taught and explored, and now I'm sure you can get half the stuff you could learn at a school in the form of a book or online resource. Yet so many concert pianists come from these schools so is it really that critical to being successful?

I really love piano and would love to share the emotions that I can put through the keys to the world, but I'd appreciate it if you guys could just tell me straight up if that's possible or even likely. I know most of you will be inclined to say "Oh anyone can become a famous concert pianist if they try enough" but I feel that isn't true. After a certain age or in certain circumstances, you just can't get as good at piano as others can.

[bronnestam]

Oh, but that was what I was going to write. Your pianist career will be what you make it to be. No more, no less.  

If anyone says "you are too old" it is still just an opinion, based on their experience from what OTHER people have done. And if everyone should have listened to this "nobody has done that before" argument, we would all still be sitting in the trees with the other apes and eat leafs and sprouts. Everything that has ever been achieved in this world, has some time been done for the first time. So? The only obstacle for you future pianist career are your own choices. Maybe you don't want to work that much that is required.

Concert pianist - well, you can work as a pianist in many ways. As you say yourself, it is not just about giving big concerts in the Carneige Hall. Even the famous ones play in churches, at receptions, even in shopping malls, at all kinds of events, in bars and restaurants, everywhere there is an audience. Some demonstrates instruments and/or sell them as well.

So, our opinions are worth less than nothing compared to your own in this case.


A little tip about your uneven hands ... I have used it myself lately and I have been very surprised how well it worked, even though it SEEMED unlikely when I read about it: try letting your stronger hand "teach" the weaker one. That is, if you need a stronger melody line, then practice it with both hands, simultaneously of course. It might be rather tricky in the beginning, and the left hand will make many mistakes (therefore you must play slowly at first) and you might find some troublesome spots concerning the fingering, but go on and practice like this for a while. When you go back to "normal" playing again, you will notice that your weaker hand has improved significantly.
(Well, we assume that you can play fairly good HS before you start this exercise, so that you don't confuse your learning.)  

At least this worked for me, but I have the reverse problem, as most people have, that the left hand is not as good as the right one. Some keys you hit too light, some too hard, and some you constantly miss ... With this strange exercise, I improved these flaws very quickly.

Try it out!

[hfmadopter]

First I think you are doing quite well, especially considering just picking back up with piano. I enjoyed your rendition of the mario piece, the second you obviously are working on getting the hand control down on. You obviously are a seasoned musician in having the feeling of the music inside of you and having started young and with several instruments.

You can work with two handed scales and Bach two part inventions to help gain control over both hands. By both, I mean it isn't just that you may need to increase volume and control in the right hand but also let up on the left. In two handed scales you can vary the sound between both hands and in the Bach you need to. But even in popular pieces and I also find in the new age genre of music there are many written where left and right hands share melody. So when you are looking for new pieces of interest to you, perhaps look for ones where the melody moves around the keyboard. You can also do it yourself with some improv work.

You're young and your talent is attempting budding and you have just begun to take up piano. However concert pianist is a crazy world. Non the less, work up some programs along the way, put on some recitals and see where that takes you. If you have a good teacher he/she may be able to help organize something like that. And that would be a beginning but a beginning you may enjoy doing. Possibly enjoy more than the actual concert life where there is much pressure to play, really out of your style frame sometimes. And play for critics at that.

Nice job for so early on though !

[snoa]

First I think you are doing quite well, especially considering just picking back up with piano. I enjoyed your rendition of the mario piece, the second you obviously are working on getting the hand control down on. You obviously are a seasoned musician in having the feeling of the music inside of you and having started young and with several instruments.

You can work with two handed scales and Bach two part inventions to help gain control over both hands. By both, I mean it isn't just that you may need to increase volume and control in the right hand but also let up on the left. In two handed scales you can vary the sound between both hands and in the Bach you need to. But even in popular pieces and I also find in the new age genre of music there are many written where left and right hands share melody. So when you are looking for new pieces of interest to you, perhaps look for ones where the melody moves around the keyboard. You can also do it yourself with some improv work.

You're young and your talent is attempting budding and you have just begun to take up piano. However concert pianist is a crazy world. Non the less, work up some programs along the way, put on some recitals and see where that takes you. If you have a good teacher he/she may be able to help organize something like that. And that would be a beginning but a beginning you may enjoy doing. Possibly enjoy more than the actual concert life where there is much pressure to play, really out of your style frame sometimes. And play for critics at that.

Nice job for so early on though !

Oh no no no no, that's Kyle Landry in the videos, not me xD I was just linking videos to what songs I'm currently learning to play haha. I'm about halfway through the song in the first video (The Mario song) hands together, and I can sight read completely the bass clef and treble clef parts in the second video, but only hands separate so far. With hands together I can only play the first few lines (Though I've only worked on it 45 minutes total so far). If I were to compare my sound to Kyle Landry's in those videos, I'd say my sound is similar to the parts of the songs I know very well and can be in-sync with emotionally, with the other parts sounding more blocky and rhythmic, kind of like a march. I think that may be due to my bass guitar and drum instincts kicking in, playing at a march-like pace while I try to figure out the feel of the song, it's something I'm working on. But no, I still can't even touch Landry's style xD he's been playing since he was a toddler and he's older than me so he has some experience and a HUGE repertoire that I wouldn't be surprised if it spanned hundreds or thousands of songs. Plus, my playing is just a mimic of his, he IMPROVISED those songs (well, he had the main melody and whatnot, but that's it, there was a lot of improv fills), and I can barely manage to reproduce it, and my improv remains to be very basic and bluesy.

[hfmadopter]

Too funny, my mistake! I have to watch my morning post before the coffee kicks in.

[snoa]

No worries, I totally understand. I work overnight so whenever I get off work at ~7am I'm always delirious and getting confused like that xD

[falala]

Yes it's definitely too late to become a "concert pianist", in the sense of someone who makes a living and/or has a name for solo performances of classical music. People don't just pick that up at your age after a long break and minimal pianistic background and get to that level. Especially not on 45 minutes practice a day. Try 4-5 hours and see what happens.

You also don't seem to have a very realistic idea of how that profession works. You can't really just do it as a "side gig" to being a pilot or anything else. You need to practising your ass off every day, and available to tour etc. as required without the demands of another job.

It doesn't sound like that way of making music is what would suit you best anyway though. You've played several instruments and have a background in various non-classical styles - it seems like it would make far more sense for you to aspire to playing piano/keyboards (plus other instruments?) in a band. You could certainly do this, choosing exactly the kind of style you want to specialize in and the kind of formats you want to play within. There'd be nothing stopping you doing that at your age, and working it around other factors in your life like a day job.

Is there any reason why you mentioned being a "concert pianist" specifically, rather than just "playing the piano"?

[snoa]

Yes it's definitely too late to become a "concert pianist", in the sense of someone who makes a living and/or has a name for solo performances of classical music. People don't just pick that up at your age after a long break and minimal pianistic background and get to that level. Especially not on 45 minutes practice a day. Try 4-5 hours and see what happens.

You also don't seem to have a very realistic idea of how that profession works. You can't really just do it as a "side gig" to being a pilot or anything else. You need to practising your ass off every day, and available to tour etc. as required without the demands of another job.

It doesn't sound like that way of making music is what would suit you best anyway though. You've played several instruments and have a background in various non-classical styles - it seems like it would make far more sense for you to aspire to playing piano/keyboards (plus other instruments?) in a band. You could certainly do this, choosing exactly the kind of style you want to specialize in and the kind of formats you want to play within. There'd be nothing stopping you doing that at your age, and working it around other factors in your life like a day job.

Is there any reason why you mentioned being a "concert pianist" specifically, rather than just "playing the piano"?

Well being a pilot would still give me ~15 days a month to practice, and even on the days I work I'm sure I could find a piano to play somewhere, and even if I couldn't play I could still analyze other pianists and see what they do, listen to seminars and read about piano to improve my playing when I can practice, like I do now. Plus, I tend to learn fairly quickly; I come from a family of musicians, see. Since I've posted this topic, I've already moved on from the song in the first vid (I've got it put together fairly well, learned what I can from it. Working on it anymore would just be diminishing returns and I wasn't ever interested in adding it to my repertoire, just something I thought I could learn some cool stuff from), I've started and am working my way through the song in the second vid, and am starting on a few Rachmaninoff pieces (I'm just learning to play the first page or so of each Rachmaninoff piece, until I can figure out which one I like more and to put my focus on).

I wanted to be a concert pianist as classical music, or classical versions of modern songs, really appeal to me in a way jazz doesn't. I've been playing classical music for the last almost 5 years, and it really brings out a different emotion in me. I can be very forceful and aggressive on the piano, or very soft and delicate in a wider range than most other instruments offer. And I'd rather be a concert pianist rather than just "play the piano" because I want to share my feelings and ideas with the world when it comes to music, in a way that I couldn't if I were in a band or just played alone in my room. I remember when an orchestra I was in played Albinoni's "Adagio" and we played it so emotionally it literally left a good portion of the audience in tears. That's a kind of force I'd like to share with others.

And, when I say I want to be a "concert pianist", I don't mean that I want be like, world-famous or make a living off of it, I have enough connections in music to where I could probably hold a small recital/concert when I got a larger repertoire, if not by myself then maybe a concert where other solo musicians come in and play their pieces. I'd be more than satisfied with a decent Youtube subscriber base and playing at small venues. Of course, the more ears I could reach the better, but I know that I won't be able to dedicate my life to this as much as I'd like. I write music for orchestra/symphony orchestra, and I'd be more than content with having an orchestra play my music if I couldn't be a concert pianist, but I always find it hard to find an orchestra willing to do so. My music is usually too demanding for smaller, less professional orchestras like a good high school chamber orchestra, but a well-known professional orchestra wouldn't even bother with my music, so I'm kind of in a gray-area.

[awesom_o]

Have you tried playing the song 'Dream On' by Aerosmith?

I think it would be a good one for you to start with!

[snoa]

Have you tried playing the song 'Dream On' by Aerosmith?

I think it would be a good one for you to start with!

I'll definitely put that on my list of songs to transcribe (I'm sure there's probably sheet music for piano out there somewhere, but I'd rather do my own version of it), but right now I'm laser-focused on "Hallelujah".

[Bob]

Too late to be a concert pianist?  Concert pianist being classical... Yes, it's too late.

Julliard, Eastman, etc. are cranking out a few grad student or doctoral students each year.  Those and the ones who probably didn't really need to go to those schools are the ones who be the concert pianists.

You're working on a keyboard, mention songs/transcribing, jazz, no formal training... That's not the path of a concert pianist. At least not a classical pianist.  Concert pianist in terms of playing on stage for an audience who like the music you play/arrange... Possibly.  Anything is possible.  As long as people pay, it's possible.  Realistically I doubt it though.  You're going to school as a computer science major, so... You're not putting everything into music.  Plus, you'll find out the amount of work a major takes.  Guess what will get bumped out?  Music, piano.  Add friends, girlfriend, etc.  life events... Too late to be a concert pianist.

I just glanced through the posts, but... "I practice 45 minutes every day for 5 days a week, and music lessons are only twice a month for 30 minutes "   ... That's not going to cut it at all.  How many other people are doing the exact things, except more so?  Love of music, taking lessons, etc.  A lot.  Someone's practicing more, making more progress, creating more, already doing or starting to do those concerts, already has their CD or mp3s available for sale, already has their press kit done and out there, etc. etc. etc.  How do you compete with that?

[falala]

And, when I say I want to be a "concert pianist", I don't mean that I want be like, world-famous or make a living off of it, I have enough connections in music to where I could probably hold a small recital/concert when I got a larger repertoire, if not by myself then maybe a concert where other solo musicians come in and play their pieces. I'd be more than satisfied with a decent Youtube subscriber base and playing at small venues.

What you are talking about then is being an active amateur who enjoys what you do and shares that enjoyment with others. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing that at any age. Of course the number of people who want to come to your concerts will depend on how well you play, what other events are available locally etc. OTOH you will only need to make enough money to cover costs, so if your audiences are small then it will be up to you whether it's worth your while to keeping doing it.

"Concert pianist" usually denotes some degree of professionalism, not just in the sense of making a living from it but in the extent to which one's life is dedicated to the art and the quality of results one aspires to. In this sense, I think you are possibly a bit wrapped up in your personal emotional relationship with music and you don't seem to see just how much more dedicated a lot of other people are to it than you. 45 minutes five times a week is just nothing for getting good at a complex instrument like the piano. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just the way it is. The fact is there are hundreds, thousands of people your age practising many times that much. Many of them have been doing so continuously since they were toddlers, under the best tuition available. And then even of those, the vast majority won't end up as concert pianists in any real sense of having a following and an audience - leave alone the question of earning a living.

The problem with your aspiration is that there is almost no "slope" in the concert pianist profession. There is a tiny number of active touring soloists with names who can draw an audience (and even many of these struggle to do so), then there is a slightly larger number of people with teaching positions in colleges and universities who do the odd playing gig here and there that people they know through their teaching might come to. Then there is an enormous number of highly skilled and committed pianists with virtually nothing, or literally nothing.

You insist that you're not aiming for the top, you're happy to be somewhere down the "slope", but the problem is there IS no slope. To be blunt: why are people going to want to go to your concerts, when they can go to hear any number of people much better than you? If you're talking about doing it professionally, in the sense of providing a high quality experience that people are willing to pay for and making a name for yourself outside of your own friends and family (note: not even talking about earning a living), then this is the question you will have to face. And the answer is that they won't.

If you're talking about doing it non-professionally, in the sense of playing for and with people you know and having a nice time, then knock yourself out. It's a free country.

[falala]

Have you tried playing the song 'Dream On' by Aerosmith?

I think it would be a good one for you to start with!

 

[gregh]

A few random comments.

First, 45 minutes per day might be all you can fit in as a student. But as your life changes (e.g. graduation), your commitments could change, too.

Now, "concert pianist" might be a high standard. On the other hand, I did know someone with a day job who played guitar and violin in a blues band, until the band leader moved to a different state. They played gigs in clubs and got enough money to break even. If they didn't make it big, I'm convinced that it's not because of a lack of technical talent--these guys were really good, and a lot of what you hear on the radio is nothing that a talented high school kid couldn't do (according to KISS, and that seems right from my own observations). You don't have to be a virtuoso in order to bring something valuable to the stage.

Many hospitals have a piano in the lobby, and are happy to have volunteer musicians sign up to play it. You don't necessarily need to draw a paying audience in order to share your music, although "street musician" might be a little challenging if piano was your instrument.

[snoa]

A few random comments.

First, 45 minutes per day might be all you can fit in as a student. But as your life changes (e.g. graduation), your commitments could change, too.

Now, "concert pianist" might be a high standard. On the other hand, I did know someone with a day job who played guitar and violin in a blues band, until the band leader moved to a different state. They played gigs in clubs and got enough money to break even. If they didn't make it big, I'm convinced that it's not because of a lack of technical talent--these guys were really good, and a lot of what you hear on the radio is nothing that a talented high school kid couldn't do (according to KISS, and that seems right from my own observations). You don't have to be a virtuoso in order to bring something valuable to the stage.

Many hospitals have a piano in the lobby, and are happy to have volunteer musicians sign up to play it. You don't necessarily need to draw a paying audience in order to share your music, although "street musician" might be a little challenging if piano was your instrument.

It's mostly because of my job now why I can only fit in 45 minutes. I work overnight so I sleep most of the day, and I have to go to my grandma's house to play her baby grand piano if I want to practice, and she goes to sleep shortly after I wake up so I only have a small window. Though, since I have great attention to detail and am a decent musician in general (I've been told that I accelerate pretty quickly through things, first chair in orchestra, even been called a prodigy more than once, but I don't trust those people's opinions as they're not musicians; I do tend to surprise other musicians with what I can do, though >.> ), so I'm usually able to make up a nice game-plan before practice and really get the most out of those 45 minutes - 1.5hours that I have.

But yeah, a piano street musician would be a bit hard xD but I did see a video of either in Washington or Oregon, where they keep an upright piano in a park for people to just play and people will just gather around whenever someone decent was playing; it was pretty interesting.

[gregh]

But yeah, a piano street musician would be a bit hard xD but I did see a video of either in Washington or Oregon, where they keep an upright piano in a park for people to just play and people will just gather around whenever someone decent was playing; it was pretty interesting.

That's pretty awesome, actually.

[pianoplayer51]

your playing sounds nice but concert pianists play classical and your pieces are not.    Also to be a successful concert pianist means you have to have attended full time music school from a very early age and then if successful, be prepared to play at concert after concert without much of a break and travel the world.    Here is Helene Grimaud at a concert

ttp:


and her gruelling shedule is as follows:

January 10, 11, 16, 17, 18    America

January 22, 23, 24, 25    England

Jan 31 Feb 5, 6 ,7, 15, 16   America

And virtually the whole of March playing in various Eastern European countries finishing up her current tour in April playing in Troronto and Warsaw

So I think you have not fully thought this through.   All we see is the end product (performance).  We do not see all the travelling with possible delays, the jet lag, the colaboration with orchestra and conductor and so on.

Concert pianists also eat, sleep and breathe music.  You stopped for 6 years.

[keypeg]

your playing sounds nice but ....

He's already said that he posted somebody else's playing.  So we have nothing to go on, really.

[keypeg]

45 minutes a day is not much time at all.  Even a very talented person who has been well taught for years would spend more time than that if preparing to be a concert pianist.  You should be telling your teacher your ambition, and get advice and feedback from him or her.

[pianoplayer51]

He's already said that he posted somebody else's playing.  So we have nothing to go on, really.

Why would he post someone else and not himself?  How is that going to get us to tell him how good, bad or indifferent he is?

[pianoplayer51]

I hope the original poster has read my response and looked at the clip I put up together with the concert schedule.  That would give him a realistic idea of what it takes.  I am no professional pianist but I do watch documentaries about concert pianists so I am well clued up on what it takes to succeed in that profession.

Commitment

Dedication

Tuition at a top music school with music professors (not your average run of the mill piano teacher)

A willingness to give up everything for your career.


I strongly urge the original poster to watch this documentary on the life of a professional pianist

[swagmaster420x]

no matter how 'talented' or 'passionate' you are, you won't be able to compete with pianists who practice more than 5x as much as you. you have to translate your natural gifts into skill through harder work. plus your lack of formal training isn't something to make slight of; if you had formal training you might not have the unevenness problems you face. imo it's pretty much too late. you can't achieve the same quality with x amount of practice if the standard is 10x because the human brain/body simply doesn't work that way. and awesome_o was joking when he was telling you to "dream on" . . . i mean, 'play' "dream on"  

[bronnestam]

I am a bit annoyed by the myth that pianists themselves are so willing to keep alive: Pianists are not mortals like the rest of us (non-pianists, happy pianist amateurs etcetera). Which means that you cannot become a pianist unless you did not start playing as a 2-year old and cried for hours whenever they took you away from the piano, you turned out to be a progidy who practiced for 5 hours a day at the age of 4 and got raving reviews at your recitals at the age of 8, and of course had your life-time career plans fixed and ready before you learned to spell your name properly. (Sorry - of course you could spell your name properly before you left your mother's breast, because you are a proooogidy, that is, a GENIOUS in all aspects of life that matters.)

Come on. Let's kill this myth here and now. Being a pianist is a JOB, like any other jobs. Pianists are normal people, and some of them have bad grades in school and are not very wise overall. Some of them are not even very good, but they do gigs and they make a living out of it, even if they are not exactly wealthy. They sell pianos, they play in bands, in bars, in shopping malls, at funerals, in schools, sometimes even in the radio or on a big stage, in TV shows - musicians are needed in many, many occasions. Some of them play in big concerts from time to time. A few are "stars" who travel all over the world.

But still, even the stars are normal human beings and their job is still a job. I got a master of science degree in applied physics some 22 years ago and that was not because me and my study mates where some Einsteins. The studies were tough, they lasted for a few years and needed preparations all way back to high school, but I did not have to whisper "engineer" when I was a toddler, I went through school like normal kids do and I chose my career when most people do, that is, at the end of my teens. (Later on I left that career, I am a technical translator now.)
I am also a fiction writer and yeah, I wanted to be a writer when I was very young and I was also told that this profession was not for mortals either. Baah. There are writers everywhere, and some of them earn some money and many of them don't ... and a few of them make enough money to make a living of it, but most of them have other jobs as well.
But it is still just a job. And it is hard to learn how to write well, and it is very hard to study for a M. of Sc. degree, just as it is hard to become a decent pianist. Neither of these jobs can be successful unless you don't get really devoted and work very much for a long, long time. I laugh every time people tell me that they also want to write a novel, "but I don't seem to have the talent for it". Yeah, because they don't understand that even a writer must practice and educate herself. You are no novelist just because you can write a long post in a stupid Internet discussion board ... Just as you are no pianist just because you know where to find the keys and can plunk your way through Für Elise. And you are not an engineer just because you know Ohm's law.

So, I will not deny that a pianist career will demand an awful lot of you, but it is still a job. It is OK to be a normal stupid mortal, it is OK that you start later in life than toddler age BUT ... it will probably require your full-time devotion and committment for a very long time. I did not get my degree by lying on my bed and read comics, I studied day and night for years.  I suppose that is what you have to do if you want to become a good pianist as well.

To me, it seems that the OP aims to become a good amateur. That is all right. There are many amateurs out there that are very, very good and sometimes they earn money too on their playing. But they don't work full-time with piano playing. And they don't play in Carneige Hall and they are not on the never-ending "Who's the best pianist" lists on Piano Street.  

[pianoplayer51]

Ok I am a bit confused with some of the things you said.  You say some pianists are very good ameters and still play and get paid for it but not as a professional.    How then do you define a professional?   I thought that once you were deemed good enough to play for payment then you were a professional.    I know someone who plays at gigs and gets paid and they have made and produced their own cd from a room in their house (not a professional studio) and they write songs so they call themselves a singer songwriter and because they made a couple of CDs albeit home produced and not under any well known professional label, they call themseves professional but they are not doing this as a career because they still have a day job to pay bills and do this music work as a sideline to make extra money hoping it will lead to eventually a full time career.   But I think they are not good enough or it would have already happened.  When they pay in gigs they play in back street bars and they think that when you start out in this business you start small (back street bars) and then venture out to bigger and better things.    I am sure Lang Lang never started out playing in back street bars

Edit:   I have re read the post and realise that your meaning of professional  is someone who plays in a top venue full time.. Not someone who plays part time and substitutes that with a different job in order to pay bills.

[Bob]

Are there any world class musicians who got bad grades in school?  I'm just curious.  It seems like they're always smart/good at everything.  I'd picture a straight A student focusing on music or one of those students who does everything, still good at everything.  Or more likely, they're home schooled so it's tough to really tell with the grades.  I've never heard of a C average top-notch musician though.

[pianoplayer51]

You can be better in one subject than another.   I was no good at mathematics and gave up trying but I have managed to pass some piano exams.   I was never interested in mathematics so did not keep on and try.   However I was interested in music and piano so as hard as it was, I was sufficiently interested to keep on trying and the results were three exam passes and I am doing more.

What also gets me about the original poster is that he wants to be an airline pilot AND is thinking of being a concert pianist.   They are both FULL TIME CAREERS.    You can only do one so I am of the impression that he does not really know what he wants to do.  That is OK as he is only 18 but if you want to be a professional concert pianist you need to have made your  mind up long before 18 because you have to have the appropriate study

Pianist Helene Grimaud was already a fully fledged concert pianist by 18 playing to big well known orcchestras such as the London Philharmonic and travelling.    She had made up her mind at the age of 13 that this is what she wanted to do and from the age of 7 she had piano lessons and it continued.    She did not have a gap of a number of years and then go back to it. But of course there are many factors as to why the original poster stopped the piano.   You may not be able to afford the tuition or your parents may not have been able to send him to a top school for pianists or personal matters which took priority over the piano (family matters) so it may not be a case of lack of interest.

My piano teacher desperately wanted to learn the piano at a very young age but her parents could not afford a piano or lessons so she did not start learning until she was 18 (same age as this origial poster) She decided she wanted to teach music and got a number of quaifications in order to do so.

Maybe this original poster could teach piano instead?

[bronnestam]

Ok I am a bit confused with some of the things you said.  You say some pianists are very good ameters and still play and get paid for it but not as a professional.    How then do you define a professional?   I thought that once you were deemed good enough to play for payment then you were a professional.    I know someone who plays at gigs and gets paid and they have made and produced their own cd from a room in their house (not a professional studio) and they write songs so they call themselves a singer songwriter and because they made a couple of CDs albeit home produced and not under any well known professional label, they call themseves professional but they are not doing this as a career because they still have a day job to pay bills and do this music work as a sideline to make extra money hoping it will lead to eventually a full time career.   But I think they are not good enough or it would have already happened.  When they pay in gigs they play in back street bars and they think that when you start out in this business you start small (back street bars) and then venture out to bigger and better things.    I am sure Lang Lang never started out playing in back street bars

Edit:   I have re read the post and realise that your meaning of professional is someone who plays in a top venue full time.. Not someone who pays part time and substitutes that with a different job in order to pay bills.

So you got it.    For example, there was a teacher at my senior high school (equivalent) who did not teach music, not even close. He was not known to be a particularly good or charismatic teacher, he was just a teacher and a very shy person. But there were rumours ... and one evening I witnessed that it was a true. He played jazz piano as a hobby, and he were in a jazz trio who had a little concert at the local library. It was like watching a totally new person there on stage, because he showed so much confidence and he was SO GOOD, they were a trio that you were happy to pay to hear. Actually I think had had made a record or two as well. But they were no professionals.

We also had a nice, incredibly friendly and shy school librarian. He went to every concert there was in town, and he said some really kind things to my mother about my sister and me - I played the piano and my sister played the flute. It turned out that he also was a very good hobby musician. When a famous pianist visited our local classical orchestra for a concert (I recall it was the Elvira Madigan concert by the way) he played the piano when they rehearsed it. I have no idea whether he got paid for that or not, but he was a decent amateur who was good enough to rehearse with the orchestra until the guest star arrived.

Yes, my definition of a "professional" is someone who makes his/her living mainly from music performances. Amateurs may get paid from time to time, but their main vocation (term?) is from something else.

  

[pianoplayer51]

And look how successful Liberace was God rest his soul.   I think his main success was his way out clothes and his general manner and he had his own tv show but he was a very good pianist.   I have not seen the movie made about him. 

[falala]

bronnestam -

I don't really see your point. I don't see anyone here denying that pianists are "ordinary mortals" or claiming that there's some kind of elusive magic involved (which is a claim that is often made in some quarters). On the contrary, people seem to be focusing (rightly, IMO) on very ordinary down to Earth factors like amount of practice time, availability to travel full time etc. The fact that the OP does not come anywhere near the requirements for these, and hasn't done as he's been growing up, is why he's extremely unlikely to become a professional concert pianist.

As for how early one needs to start, well, that seems to be a common subject of disagreement and there's probably no point going over it all again here. I'd just say what I usually say on the subject: show me the successful professional concert pianist who took up the instrument in adulthood, and I'll believe it's possible. Simple.

It's not like being a scientist or a writer because it involves the training of extremely complex REALTIME physical skills. The only other areas of human activity that I can think of that compare are some sports, and learning languages.

[pianoplayer51]

I found this on the internet


Albert Frantz is a world-class pianist from Pennsylvania who started his career at the extraordinary late age of 17. His early piano teacher told his mother to throw her money in the garbage rather than spending it on piano lessons for Albert. He discovered his love for classical music while in high school, which made him accomplish things that seemed to be impossible. He was the first pianist in a decade to receive a Fulbright scholarship to study in Vienna, which finally led him to the home country of many of his musical idols. In addition to playing and teaching the piano he enjoys racing cars and is currently training for an Ironman.

Having done some more research into this guy and watched him play on youtube.. He mainly plays solo piano.

[bronnestam]

Yes, it is difficult to become a pianist, and I think we could not agree more about why the OP cannot become a so called "concert pianist" with this present level of commitment, but still I see the opinion about concert pianists as some half divine creatures being rather popular in a discussion board like this ... which is not that surprising. All of us struggle to learn to play the piano and some have come far and some have just begun, we all know what is about. You don't become a professional pianist without a professional commitment, which means full time studies for many years.

But still, what is commonly referred to as "concert pianists" here are a handful of famous stars, the very top of the top, and I think it is ridiculous to always have that reference point and forget that there is a whole world below that level. And so we tell people that sorry, you cannot become a concert pianist because you did not start with full devotion when you were a toddler.

Yes, if you want to be a successful ballerina or become world champion in certain sports, you have to start very early, because the peak of your career will be long before you are 35, and when you turn 40 it will all definitely be over. But that is not the case for a pianist, except those unfortunate who have to retire early because of injuries. Still we tend to have a too romantic view about pianists ... and violinists, maybe. But what if someone claims he wants to become a first class drummer, electrical guitar player or play the trumpet? "Sorry,  now when you are 18 I'm afraid it is far too late to start and think you could get somewhere". I mean, really?

So my point is that
- it is hard to become a pianist and it takes many years of education and hard work, but it still a musician job like any other musician jobs
- therefore, you don't HAVE to start at a ridiculously low age in order to make it
- on the other hand, if "making it" to you only means belonging to the very small elite level of pianists who tour the whole world and are well-known to most people in the pianist world, then sorry. Adjust your point of view, it is not realistic at all. It is like saying you cannot make it as an author if you don't get the Nobel Prize, or become as famous as Joyce Carol Oates.

Anyway, I also think those elite pianists have to start early - maybe not because of the playing skills as such, but because that job requires a very special mindset that you probably have to develop early. And you also need a lot of luck.

But again, these people are exceptions, not standard.  

[bronnestam]

I also realize that my ramblings here are a bit out of topic and may seem a bit confusing ... 

Anyway, about this romantizising thing about pianists - as an example, I wanted to have a piano teacher for quite a while before I FINALLY found someone. Why was it so hard to find a teacher? After all, there are plenty of teachers here ... if you are young. If you go to school. Or if you are a total beginner who thinks it should be a great start to sit in a group of 7 students and learn how to play the C Major chord and play Tom Dooley.
But me? +40 years old and good enough to try a Beethoven sonata or two, but still just at intermediate level. There were no teachers for me. It would not have helped if I had been 25, for that matter, I would still have been "too old". And because of this, the myth keeps itself alive, some kind of Moment 22: you cannot become good if you start late with something, because people who are +20 years old CANNOT LEARN ANYTHING NEW (something like that) and so there are small possibilities for late beginners even to find a teacher, and it is out of the question to get into conservatories of course, and master classes are simply not open for them. Period. You should have started earlier ...

Well, in my case I finally found a teacher who, out of family reasons, had been forced to quit her municipal  job teaching school kids and started to teach in her home as a freelancer instead, and she thought it was great fun to teach adults. So I'm fine now. I don't want to launch a professional pianist career anyway, but I highly appreciate to get lessons that suit my needs, and I am quite sure there ARE many mature talents out there who will never become professionals just because the tradition thinks it is too late for them. Not because it is really true.

[pianoplayer51]

My cousin is a music teacher.    She teaches basic piano but her main instrument is the flute.  She has a 6 year old daughter and wanted her daughter to learn piano.   There were a lot of tears and tantrums because her daughter doesn't like it.   She does it because  her mother forces her to do it for her own good and education as my cousin thinks any child should learn an instrument at a young age.   I said to her child.. "do you like the piano" and the reply was "no, I hate it but my parents make me do it".    Her father has to literally drag her every morning and sit her at the piano and say to her "Time for scales now"  and then come the tears and the screaming and eventually the child calms down and does her scales.    They think the more they urge her to do it, eventually she will grow to like it.

I am not convinced.

[falala]

I found this on the internet

Oh well it must be true then.  

Albert Frantz is a world-class pianist from Pennsylvania who started his career at the extraordinary late age of 17. His early piano teacher told his mother to throw her money in the garbage rather than spending it on piano lessons for Albert. He discovered his love for classical music while in high school, which made him accomplish things that seemed to be impossible. He was the first pianist in a decade to receive a Fulbright scholarship to study in Vienna, which finally led him to the home country of many of his musical idols. In addition to playing and teaching the piano he enjoys racing cars and is currently training for an Ironman.

Hi's not a world class professional concert pianist. He's not a professional concert pianist at all. He's a piano STUDENT in Vienna.

And he didn't take up the instrument at 17. He learnt as a kid but was discouraged by his teachers and gave it up, taking it up again later.

[falala]

Yes, it is difficult to become a pianist, and I think we could not agree more about why the OP cannot become a so called "concert pianist" with this present level of commitment, but still I see the opinion about concert pianists as some half divine creatures being rather popular in a discussion board like this ... which is not that surprising. All of us struggle to learn to play the piano and some have come far and some have just begun, we all know what is about. You don't become a professional pianist without a professional commitment, which means full time studies for many years.

But still, what is commonly referred to as "concert pianists" here are a handful of famous stars, the very top of the top, and I think it is ridiculous to always have that reference point and forget that there is a whole world below that level. And so we tell people that sorry, you cannot become a concert pianist because you did not start with full devotion when you were a toddler.

I completely agree about the variety of other options available to do with piano playing. But when we tell people that "sorry, you cannot become a concert pianist because you did not start with full devotion when you were a toddler", we are simply telling them the truth, since "concert pianist" is usually taken to mean someone who plays solo classical music for a living. (Actually I wouldn't say "toddler" at all - that's an exaggeration. But the point still stands).

Yes, if you want to be a successful ballerina or become world champion in certain sports, you have to start very early, because the peak of your career will be long before you are 35, and when you turn 40 it will all definitely be over. But that is not the case for a pianist, except those unfortunate who have to retire early because of injuries.

It may be that some classical pianists haven't reached the "peak" of their career before 35, but you'll find that they all HAVE a career before that point, if they're ever going to have one. This may be because of the need to train the musculature early in life; it may be because of the nature of the profession that focuses on finding rising young stars. It may be both, or something else. But it is undeniably true. Again, if you disagree, all you have to do is show me the examples.

Still we tend to have a too romantic view about pianists ... and violinists, maybe. But what if someone claims he wants to become a first class drummer, electrical guitar player or play the trumpet? "Sorry,  now when you are 18 I'm afraid it is far too late to start and think you could get somewhere". I mean, really?

18? Hmm, I don't know. I suspect there are probably a few professional guitarists and drummers who took the instrument up then. I personally know a great pro drummer who started when he was 16. Trumpet... probably unlikely, but I wouldn't like to say impossible.

But those are different questions. I'm not sure why you're introducing them here. The instruments are different and more importantly: the nature of being a non-classical musician (even a first class one) is VASTLY different than being a classical one, particularly a concert pianist. The demands of sheer technical, physical precision and reliability are just infinitely greater. You can't compare the two.

So my point is that
- it is hard to become a pianist and it takes many years of education and hard work, but it still a musician job like any other musician jobs
- therefore, you don't HAVE to start at a ridiculously low age in order to make it
- on the other hand, if "making it" to you only means belonging to the very small elite level of pianists who tour the whole world and are well-known to most people in the pianist world, then sorry. Adjust your point of view, it is not realistic at all.

Oh right. So when you say it's "not realistic", what you mean is that you DO have to have started at a ridiculously low age in order to make it, if that's what the person means by "making it". 

Again I completely agree with you about finding more realistic goals and enjoying them. The problem is that the OP seemed to think that such goals exist within the world of playing solo classical piano music to audiences professionally. They don't really. They exist within playing other styles, within teaching etc. But there is no such thing as a second tier professional classical concert pianist - which is what the OP was asking about.

[pianoplayer51]

Oh well it must be true then.  


Hi's not a world class professional concert pianist. He's not a professional concert pianist at all. He's a piano STUDENT in Vienna.

And he didn't take up the instrument at 17. He learnt as a kid but was discouraged by his teachers and gave it up, taking it up again later.

Yes and to be honest when I heard him play on youtube he did not sound like a professiona

[piano6888]

I think most others that posted on here summed it up pretty well.  I will however, add my own input as well.  To be a concert pianist (assuming one that gives tours, performs across the world/nation/etc.) it would require tremendous work, talent, and of course luck.  Then combine that with physical, psychological, and environmental factors as well.  As one gets older, the body's muscles develop and also neurons die, so it would be harder to master or learn something when one is older than if one was younger.  Also, when one gets into the middle ages mid 40's through 60's, health problems start to surface, ranging from but not limited to, arthritis, cts (carpal tunnel syndrome), and etc. Also, if one makes it to older age, don't forget about diseases of the brain (may or may not happen, but it is not unheard of) such as Alzheimer's or Dementia.   The advantage that adults have over children is more life experiences and discipline, but of course since the brain has already fully developed (or almost, depending on your age) so it would lack the sponge-like attribute that a child has at learning things. 

Aside from health and age issues aside, then one has to take into consideration the musical background.  Did you have good teachers when you were young? Did you practice oftenly? How much raw talent do you have and what kind of progress did you make? Also, when older, did you study at a conservatory with world class pianists? Did you compete in competitions and concertos? etc.

Even though I am a pianist, I don't consider that I would be a concert pianist because of many factors.  I started at age 8, took lessons from a local teacher (she was good at teaching, but not like world class pianist), then I entered competitions around age 12, never won but made it to the finals.  Then at age 15, I studied at a conservatory for 2 years. (while I did stop pursuing music seriously around 18 due to college and economic reasons, even if I had continued, the result would have been similar.. Maybe more chance of success, but still mostly the same.) Nowadays I just play as a hobby and always trying to be the best I can be, setting new goals for myself.

I don't want to discourage anyone from pursuing their goals of being a concert pianist, but this is pretty much the reality of becoming a concert pianist.  Remember that even though there are people that have the proper background, there is luck involved so if the right person at the right time doesn't hear or recognize the said pianist, then there is a high chance that the pianist would not make it.

[gyzzzmo]

Yes.

To be blunt but honest,  A) you're too late, B) not motivated enough and c) not good enough to be a concert pianist.

a) at higher age you dont learn as fast anymore, your brains physically cant adapt enough anymore and financially it often gets problematic if you want to go 100% for the piano.

b) you want to be a pilot as well and think 15 days a month is enough. What do you think concert pianists do half of their time, play scrabble?

c) the pieces you're apperently tackling are hard indeed..... for many amateurs. Now listen to Chopin or Liszt concert etudes. They're played by -loads- of people wanting to be concert pianists (who do play 24/7) and dont become concert pianists either.



But remember, being a very good amateur is a great goal too and a lot more practical.

[iancollett6]

 I think if the OP had said that he was thinking about being a concert pianist as well as being a car salesman, then the whole post would have been a little more plausible.
 With my brief insight in to flying, I can tell you that becoming an airline pilot is a very difficult thing on its own to do. Its an extremely competitive game.
 Maybe the OP would consider also being an F1 driver, you know just as a backup...