forearm tension and pain, please help

[temudzin]

Hello everybody , this is my first post on this forum and I would just like to apologize for my bad english and grammar mistakes  .

So, Iīve been playing piano for around 12 years and I am a student right now. Recently I started feeling a lot of tension in my right forearm, in the lower side along my whole forearm . It feels like a  nervous feeling combined with a LOT of tension, so that it is hard to move my fingers even away from the piano. It is very hard to extend my fingers ... I took a few days off but when I started playing again today the tension came back and it is hurting even if i do not play! I know that lower forearm can hurt if you are hitting the keys with too much force so I tried playing as soft as I could but it didnīt help at all even if I was playing something very  easy  .Could it be my posture or my arm weight/balance?

Please help !

[faulty_damper]

A video or picture of how your arms look when you're playing would help.  Otherwise, your description isn't too revealing.

But taking a stab at it: are your elbows touching your torso when you play?

[rmbarbosa]

You may wish to look the site pianocarrer.com Illinca Vartic, based on russian piano school. There you can see, freely,  3 or 4 videos where Illinca shows how to play without any tension.
Best wishes
rui

[temudzin]

ok here is a video of me playing a part of bach partita.... hope this helps... as for  elbows, they are not  touching my torso... thanks for a reply!

[temudzin]

You may wish to look the site pianocarrer.com Illinca Vartic, based on russian piano school. There you can see, freely,  3 or 4 videos where Illinca shows how to play without any tension.
Best wishes
rui

thanks for suggestion, but i have already seen her videos but sadly it didnīt help me alot...

[johnmar78]

Hey Temu. I watched your video and read all the inform you have given. Your forearm pain was developed NOT just recently or one day. Its building thru a long period of time...

From your video, I reckon your main power relies on too much forward -downforce rather than focusing on piano's rebound action and natural fall of key stroke/efficiency. Its very hard to explain just using words. At the moment, you need to revise all your bad habbits of playing and TRY to generate power-key stroke thru your1) body core-finger tip -down to key bed. And TRIED not to play too fast with out proper muscle warm ups, as a result casused excessive muscle tension which has shown in your playing I believe. At least stage you need to slowing down and let the free body /piano motion flow. I hope this helps...

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for uploading a video.  It reminds me of how I used to play: too much fingers!  As a result, I had pain that I couldn't identify the cause.

You have to learn to re-align the hand and not use your fingers so much.  It's not about finger movement but wrist & forearm to minimize finger movements.

[temudzin]

Hey Temu. I watched your video and read all the inform you have given. Your forearm pain was developed NOT just recently or one day. Its building thru a long period of time...

From your video, I reckon your main power relies on too much forward -downforce rather than focusing on piano's rebound action and natural fall of key stroke/efficiency. Its very hard to explain just using words. At the moment, you need to revise all your bad habbits of playing and TRY to generate power-key stroke thru your1) body core-finger tip -down to key bed. And TRIED not to play too fast with out proper muscle warm ups, as a result casused excessive muscle tension which has shown in your playing I believe. At least stage you need to slowing down and let the free body /piano motion flow. I hope this helps...

Thanks for your reply  ! I think i understand what you are saying... are there any exercises to gain this feeling  of generating power thru my body? how can i focus on keyīs rebound action? I tried to do that before but I always lost stabilitiy in my hands because of lifting fingers more quickly off the keys...  I will also try to revise my bad habits and not to play with cold hands.. thank you again! 

Thanks for uploading a video.  It reminds me of how I used to play: too much fingers!  As a result, I had pain that I couldn't identify the cause.

You have to learn to re-align the hand and not use your fingers so much.  It's not about finger movement but wrist & forearm to minimize finger movements.

Thanks for replying and your advise!  But i was always told that I do NOT use my fingers enough!! even my present teacher  is demonstrating to me how i should really push/strike each key with power of fingers !! and she has no problems with technique and is able to play most of the things I play without even practising them! I am a little confused    also how do I re-align my hands? In relation to my arms or keyboard?

[outin]

Thanks for replying and your advise!  But i was always told that I do NOT use my fingers enough!! even my present teacher  is demonstrating to me how i should really push/strike each key with power of fingers !! and she has no problems with technique and is able to play most of the things I play without even practising them! I am a little confused    also how do I re-align my hands? In relation to my arms or keyboard?

Sounds a lot like me and my teacher (except for the pushing part). She wants active fingers. I have got extensive forearm tension every now and then, more like cramping. My wrist gets stiff too. I have noticed that it is aggravated by two things: Too much stretching (large chords and octaves) and sitting too close. And in addition to that extensive computer use. There's something wrong with my arms, I need to sit really far when I play so that my elbows are quite straight, otherwise I get into trouble. I tend to forget this...

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for replying and your advise!  But i was always told that I do NOT use my fingers enough!! even my present teacher  is demonstrating to me how i should really push/strike each key with power of fingers !! and she has no problems with technique and is able to play most of the things I play without even practising them! I am a little confused    also how do I re-align my hands? In relation to my arms or keyboard?

In your video, do you see how you have to stretch your 5 finger to depress the keys but not for the other fingers?  Do you also notice that you have to turn the hand (rotate forearm) to achieve that depression but not for the other fingers?  That's realignment of the 5 finger based on your current technique.  Maximize that realignment and do that for all fingers.  However...

It seems that you've been taught to keep the hand flat, which does NOT work for comfort or long-term effectiveness.  I think this is the reason why you're experiencing the issues you have now.

As for your teacher, just because she does it doesn't mean she's describing it the way she does it.  You're going to have to make a choice here.  Continue to do as she tells you to and continue to have pain or try what I've suggested.  This means ignoring her advice because, in my opinion, (I had a teacher who told me the same thing, btw) what she's telling you is wrong.  (My teacher was Chinese and that's how she was taught to play, very fingery.)

[temudzin]

In your video, do you see how you have to stretch your 5 finger to depress the keys but not for the other fingers?  Do you also notice that you have to turn the hand (rotate forearm) to achieve that depression but not for the other fingers?  That's realignment of the 5 finger based on your current technique.  Maximize that realignment and do that for all fingers.  However...

It seems that you've been taught to keep the hand flat, which does NOT work for comfort or long-term effectiveness.  I think this is the reason why you're experiencing the issues you have now.

As for your teacher, just because she does it doesn't mean she's describing it the way she does it.  You're going to have to make a choice here.  Continue to do as she tells you to and continue to have pain or try what I've suggested.  This means ignoring her advice because, in my opinion, (I had a teacher who told me the same thing, btw) what she's telling you is wrong.  (My teacher was Chinese and that's how she was taught to play, very fingery.)

So you are saying that I should  stretch all my fingers when hitting a key? also what do you mean with flat hand? how can I fix this? With rotation?

As for my teacher, I was always a bit sceptical about this method. But how do you then suggest playing a very fast passage very loud? When you can not use arm rotation on every note? When I tried to do it I always started feeling tension and pain...

[nyiregyhazi]

So you are saying that I should  stretch all my fingers when hitting a key? also what do you mean with flat hand? how can I fix this? With rotation?

As for my teacher, I was always a bit sceptical about this method. But how do you then suggest playing a very fast passage very loud? When you can not use arm rotation on every note? When I tried to do it I always started feeling tension and pain...

Rotation is to ADD to finger movement, not to replace it. If you always feel that the fingers are lengthening out actively as the primary mover but that rotation complements it, it shouldn't cause stiffness. However, I do find the taubman description highly dubious and potentially inclined to encourage stiffness, unless the student understands how much finger action needs to go with it.

Your fingers move well, but you're not joining your arm reliably behind every finger. Your wrist is often angled, which means it has to tense. You need to find length to keep the wrist straightened out, otherwise you're disconnected from your fingers.

[temudzin]

Rotation is to ADD to finger movement, not to replace it. If you always feel that the fingers are lengthening out actively as the primary mover but that rotation complements it, it shouldn't cause stiffness. However, I do find the taubman description highly dubious and potentially inclined to encourage stiffness, unless the student understands how much finger action needs to go with it.

Your fingers move well, but you're not joining your arm reliably behind every finger. Your wrist is often angled, which means it has to tense. You need to find length to keep the wrist straightened out, otherwise you're disconnected from your fingers.

Thanks for advice! I am sorry to bother you but do you have any clue what caused  nervous feeling in my forearm?

[faulty_damper]

So you are saying that I should  stretch all my fingers when hitting a key? also what do you mean with flat hand? how can I fix this? With rotation?

A flat hand just means that it is parallel to the keyboard, as in a coin can be balanced on top of the hand as you play.  This is not good.  The hand should rotate (by rotation of the forearm) as you play which helps align the fingers.  Rotation is like turning a doorknob but the movement is very slight.

But how do you then suggest playing a very fast passage very loud? When you can not use arm rotation on every note? When I tried to do it I always started feeling tension and pain...

You just made a serious error in assumption.  This rotation is a natural part of how to depress the keys very fast.  I guarantee that when you master it, you will never go back to the way you're playing now because it feels natural; very little energy is used when you involve the whole body.

The tension you feel is from co-contraction, as in both the muscles that raise and lower the fingers contract at the same time, causing tension.

One minor but important detail is upper arm movement, something you don't use.  You can rotate the hand (without rotating the forearm) just by moving the elbow away from the body.  if you add this movement, it helps align the fingers as you play.

(Everything I just said, my first teacher told me NOT to do.  She insisted that I keep my hand still and elbows close to the body and that the keys should be played by finger action alone.  I ended up complaining that I had pain in my hand.  I really hope your teacher isn't my first teacher. )

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks for advice! I am sorry to bother you but do you have any clue what caused  nervous feeling in my forearm?

I have to say I'm a little surprised, as you look pretty loose. However, there is a disconnect between fingers and the rest of the arm at the wrist. This can disguise inner tensions. You need to get the wrist parallel by creating length, with a maintained and stable connection to the finger. The weight idea can be harmful if a model for what moves the key for you. However, you need to let your arm lengthen out better behind each finger AFTER the key is sounded. You're often bunched up and disconnected. Let everything lengthen out behind more and your fingers will be in a more advantageous position from which to move the keys. When you get trapped up you'll have to press down with the arm- which isn't good. I like the idea of weight as a preliminary thing- that preps a finger clearly against a key. If your finger does feel primed against that key (so any movement will flow straight into the hammer, without the arm having to drop down further during the movement) then you'll not have to strain in order to get enough sound out. That disconnect must be causing tightness.

Look up Alan Fraser's writings. It's all about connecting properly to the finger well AFTER the key sounded, in order to free the arm- rather than overrelaxing in a way that disconnects finger and arm and then tensing to compensate for the slack. You could also try my own post on the same kinds of issues:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/achieving-effortless-balance-within.html

[nyiregyhazi]

A flat hand just means that it is parallel to the keyboard, as in a coin can be balanced on top of the hand as you play.  This is not good.  The hand should rotate (by rotation of the forearm) as you play which helps align the fingers.  Rotation is like turning a doorknob but the movement is very slight.

I'm kind of with you in a way, but suffered the consequences of not getting this quite right. The thing to understand is that rotation should normally RETURN the hand to a flat position when sounding the note. When it takes you AWAY from the flat position, it's more often a source of harm rather than help. The Taubman idea of double rotation gives way too little prominence to the necessary role of the finger- but it does give a very good way of ensuring that rotation is used to CREATE a good alignment, rather than something that can actively take you OUT of a good alignment and into a bad one.

You shouldn't be locked into the straight position at all times, but neither should you be going drastically away from it especially often, during the act of depressing keys. If rotation causes a slump, it's important to practise the rotation OUT of the position before moving the key and then use the rotation to go BACK to the aligned position.


PS on an objective level he made no error. The idea of rotations for every individual note is ludicrous at a high tempo. Consider what tiny fractions of seconds it would have to be timed to when reversing direction to avoid cocontraction. And consider how big the rotational movements would have to be if they were to be a power source. At speeds, the realignments have to be more passive, or the muscles would be horribly overworked. Rotation practise is largely about letting go and line up well, rather than about learning to use it as a power source.

At high speed, a gradual rotation is feasible across a number of notes- IF the fingers are providing most of the key movement. Individual rotations as a literal instigator of movement are simply ludicrous.

[faulty_damper]

If I have to learn a new passage, I don't think about alignment; I just figure out the way that's easiest to play, which just happens to align everything.  That alignment is a symptom, not the cause of the ease.

[nyiregyhazi]

If I have to learn a new passage, I don't think about alignment; I just figure out the way that's easiest to play, which just happens to align everything.  That alignment is a symptom, not the cause of the ease.

I agree very much. The right style of action makes it happen extremely passively. It's not something you can force. For me, the big role of rotation is in helping to find alignments in this relatively passive way. The rotation itself is done relatively actively, of course, in the slow practise- but the position it helps to generate is an extremely passive thing. After you rotate, you just end up at length and free in the forearm without necessarily trying (as long as things are being done right at the finger end- which no small issue). Ultimately, the rotation too can be virtually phased out and you're left with the ability to passively align behind every finger- without doing very much deliberate rotation any more.

However, I'd add that when people are merely encouraged to rotate, it's at best 50/50 whether they rotate into better or worse alignment, unless they have the right guidance.

[temudzin]

A flat hand just means that it is parallel to the keyboard, as in a coin can be balanced on top of the hand as you play.  This is not good.  The hand should rotate (by rotation of the forearm) as you play which helps align the fingers.  Rotation is like turning a doorknob but the movement is very slight.

You just made a serious error in assumption.  This rotation is a natural part of how to depress the keys very fast.  I guarantee that when you master it, you will never go back to the way you're playing now because it feels natural; very little energy is used when you involve the whole body.

The tension you feel is from co-contraction, as in both the muscles that raise and lower the fingers contract at the same time, causing tension.

One minor but important detail is upper arm movement, something you don't use.  You can rotate the hand (without rotating the forearm) just by moving the elbow away from the body.  if you add this movement, it helps align the fingers as you play.

(Everything I just said, my first teacher told me NOT to do.  She insisted that I keep my hand still and elbows close to the body and that the keys should be played by finger action alone.  I ended up complaining that I had pain in my hand.  I really hope your teacher isn't my first teacher. )

Thanks for advice! I will try to use more rotation and see how it feels... Just for info, are you talking about "taubman" rotation?

I have to say I'm a little surprised, as you look pretty loose. However, there is a disconnect between fingers and the rest of the arm at the wrist. This can disguise inner tensions. You need to get the wrist parallel by creating length, with a maintained and stable connection to the finger. The weight idea can be harmful if a model for what moves the key for you. However, you need to let your arm lengthen out better behind each finger AFTER the key is sounded. You're often bunched up and disconnected. Let everything lengthen out behind more and your fingers will be in a more advantageous position from which to move the keys. When you get trapped up you'll have to press down with the arm- which isn't good. I like the idea of weight as a preliminary thing- that preps a finger clearly against a key. If your finger does feel primed against that key (so any movement will flow straight into the hammer, without the arm having to drop down further during the movement) then you'll not have to strain in order to get enough sound out. That disconnect must be causing tightness.

Look up Alan Fraser's writings. It's all about connecting properly to the finger well AFTER the key sounded, in order to free the arm- rather than overrelaxing in a way that disconnects finger and arm and then tensing to compensate for the slack. You could also try my own post on the same kinds of issues:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/achieving-effortless-balance-within.html


Thanks for advice and link! Do you think that I should also extend my fingers?

I agree very much. The right style of action makes it happen extremely passively. It's not something you can force. For me, the big role of rotation is in helping to find alignments in this relatively passive way. The rotation itself is done relatively actively, of course, in the slow practise- but the position it helps to generate is an extremely passive thing. After you rotate, you just end up at length and free in the forearm without necessarily trying (as long as things are being done right at the finger end- which no small issue). Ultimately, the rotation too can be virtually phased out and you're left with the ability to passively align behind every finger- without doing very much deliberate rotation any more.

However, I'd add that when people are merely encouraged to rotate, it's at best 50/50 whether they rotate into better or worse alignment, unless they have the right guidance.

Should I use rotation just in terms of " right-left" movement or should I also move it in relation to forearm? I would also like to ask how do you use a keyīs rebound action to keep you in balance? Should I feel that I am always connected to the keyboard thru fingers (so that my fingers are "holding" weight) ?

[temudzin]

Ooops I did something wrong while replying, my last anwser is colored blue...

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for advice! I will try to use more rotation and see how it feels... Just for info, are you talking about "taubman" rotation?

I don't even remember what she taught even though I tried it a long time ago.  If you're referring to the forearm rotation to strike the keys, the way she exaggerates in demos, then I'm not really sure that's what I mean since she's exaggerating the movement.  I'm not a fan of Taubman.

[temudzin]

I don't even remember what she taught even though I tried it a long time ago.  If you're referring to the forearm rotation to strike the keys, the way she exaggerates in demos, then I'm not really sure that's what I mean since she's exaggerating the movement.  I'm not a fan of Taubman.

Yes , I was thinking about that .. I also saw only videos with exaggerated moves so I am not sure how it works on advanced level...

[faulty_damper]

The biggest problem I see with Taubman is that her technique is based upon pushing down which requires a lot of energy and also wastes a lot of energy.  You can see just how muscular her forearms are and how much effort she puts into it so I don't consider her an expert on technique.

[nyiregyhazi]

The biggest problem I see with Taubman is that her technique is based upon pushing down which requires a lot of energy and also wastes a lot of energy.  You can see just how muscular her forearms are and how much effort she puts into it so I don't consider her an expert on technique.

Not a common view- but I do agree. The only way for Taubman to be fully optimal is either to have good finger technique already (so rotation never ends up replacing, rather than merely complementing it) or to have such bad stiffness that it's a lesser evil to be so reliant on rotation to move the keys. Ultimately, the only way to play advanced repertoire is to tone down active arm impulses and learn to get fingers moving well. The only way to be truly safe with some of the technique they show is to be willing to go ultra slow and never try to get beyond a very ordinary middle of the road limit. Anyone who has genuine musical ambitions needs something more that- at which point they're going to be very likely to get seriously stiff unless they have fingers that can generate serious movement (rather than merely support arm pressure).

[lostinidlewonder]

Hard to give any advise without sitting next to you, I feel that your forearms are moving around more than they should it seems to me to be wasting energy. Your fingers seemed fine to me, its the waving arms Not that this helps much but it was the main thing that caught my attention.

[temudzin]

Hard to give any advise without sitting next to you, I feel that your forearms are moving around more than they should it seems to me to be wasting energy. Your fingers seemed fine to me, its the waving arms Not that this helps much but it was the main thing that caught my attention.

Thanks for advice! I think I know what is causing tension now.. I donīt know how to "hold" the weight of the arm with fingers (how to create a balance). Does anyone have any suggestions on that?

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for advice! I think I know what is causing tension now.. I donīt know how to "hold" the weight of the arm with fingers (how to create a balance). Does anyone have any suggestions on that?

You aren't supposed to.

[temudzin]

You aren't supposed to.

Well I know, I didn`t mean it literally  ...I was tkinking about balance of the arm..