Learning pieces and repertoire memory

[escapereality]

I learn pieces very slowly. For a several-page composition, it takes me about three weeks to put together the piece hands together, meaning I can play the piece from beginning to end slowly with no blatant stops. It then takes a few months of polishing to get the piece to a decent performance level, and even then it's still littered with mistakes. I also have a problem where if I drop a piece for several weeks, and when I try to go back to playing it, I find that my technique has severely deteriorated, forcing me to intensely relearn the piece.

I pretty much just accepted these shortcomings until I saw some other pianists on YouTube and at a camp. Usually, various students are called up to do solo recitals, but every time I have failed to come up with a long enough repertoire. One boy who was eleven at the time (who had fewer years of training than I did) managed to learn a rather difficult Weber piece in around five days and was able to perform it at a solo recital with no discernible mistakes. I spent a week trying to play some variations and failed even when looking at the music. I feel like it always takes too long to get something up to scratch and this has prevented me from learning as many pieces as I would like.

I've been practicing a certain transcription from a YouTube pianist, and after two weeks I still play it in a stumbling manner. I checked to see how long he has practiced, and I was shocked when he said that he transcribed and learned the piece in a few days - in a high level. You might say that since he transcribed the piece, it would be easier for him to learn, but I have saw examples of other pianists who have learned unfamiliar difficult pieces in extremely short periods of time.


My current piano habits:
I practice about two hours a day, usually on only one or two pieces.
I try to get each hand up to a good level, practicing separately. I play through with my right hand, and when I come to a troublesome section I play it through a couple of times going from slow to fast to get the hang. When I focus, I can usually play troublesome passages fairly well at a good tempo, but the problem arises when I put them together. I find that I stop a lot to recheck both hands. I make mistakes where I would not if I practiced hands separate. I even can't read the notes accurately at times. I just cannot focus on either hand when I play them together. Passages that were easy separate become difficult when I put together (for example, I have a usually-clear Alberti bass in the left hand that becomes sloppy and skips notes when I add in the right hand).

Is there anyway I can improve my learning speed and retention? I don't think it has mainly do with practice time...maybe it's the method.

Thank you for reading.

[faulty_damper]

You don't have enough piano vocabulary in your repertoire.  The fact that you spend so much time on just two pieces is part of the problem.  New goal: go through as many pieces as you can in a day.  Repeat endlessly.  You'll notice a change in your behavior.  Then you can do what you're doing now.

[outin]

Is there anyway I can improve my learning speed and retention? I don't think it has mainly do with practice time...maybe it's the method.

Honestly? IMO people are simply different in this manner (from both nature and nurture).

I am extremely slow also. I never manage to learn anything properly before we move on. Privately I have a few pieces that I keep practicing periodically and they may not be polished even after a year. Why is it that I'm so slow? Practicing is often less efficient because the concentration level suffers when the mind is difficult to keep in control. Not much to do about that since I'm not interested in changing my brain chemistry with drugs. The tactile memory develops slowly and is very unreliable. Mental memorization is very slow because I am not one to remember small details, instead I have always been good in seeing and understanding the "big picture".

Expanding your vocabulary as Faulty suggests should help, but it also takes time (years), it does not suddenly happen.

[faulty_damper]

I disagree that it takes years to learn piano vocabulary. The vocabulary can be learned very quickly as the patterns aren't that numerous to begin with.  It's definitely much smaller than English vocabulary.

[lostinidlewonder]

Learn easier smaller pieces which you can complete in faster time. Do not waste your time focusing on pieces which take you months and months. Learn pieces which you can do in say one week and play somewhat mastered. This way you will develop a better understanding how you learn music and not trap yourself into thinking that it should always be slow and inefficient.

[outin]

I disagree that it takes years to learn piano vocabulary. The vocabulary can be learned very quickly as the patterns aren't that numerous to begin with.  It's definitely much smaller than English vocabulary.

The time required depends on many things: How much time one has to invest in learning per day or months and how much time it takes to actually learn the patterns. Obviously the vocabulary is also often cumulative and learning it properly requires physical skill as well. Since it seems to have taken years for almost everyone who play the piano, I guess it's a good estimate.

Many on this site claim to have found the key to the fast or best way of learning and after that revelation got results very fast. Yet all of those people seem to have years or decades of piano study behind them. No matter how "wrong" they were originally taught, they cannot be used as an example of the efficiency of the proposed learning methods in real beginners. I am still waiting for someone to actually show evidence for universal solutions to learning problems 

[outin]

Learn pieces which you can do in say one week and play somewhat mastered.

In a way you are right, but what if ANY piece, no matter how short takes much more than one week to be mastered?

[lostinidlewonder]

Playing larger works for instance or more complicated works of course will take a longer time.

Students of piano should strive to know if they are studying a piece which they can learn quick and those pieces which take longer. Being able to measure how long a piece takes can be more difficult than it seems, but a student who works on understanding how long it takes to learn a given piece will benefit from a more efficient study approach. Too many students study pieces which take too long, this is a slow and inefficient path to take although it can be a source of great joy for some and in that case go for it! But to develop your rate of learning you need to work with material which you can learn efficiently, then you can slowly raise the difficulty level of what you can learn efficiently.

[kevin69]

In a way you are right, but what if ANY piece, no matter how short takes much more than one week to be mastered?

Then you are still thinking about pieces that are too hard.

There are plenty of method books aimed at preliminary and grade 1 levels with pieces that total beginners can play in a week or so: the OP might need to swallow a bit of pride to before finding a level where he can master a piece quickly but its probably better to go 'too simple' and get lots of near sight reading practice than get bogged down.

[outin]

Playing larger works for instance or more complicated works of course will take a longer time.

Students of piano should strive to know if they are studying a piece which they can learn quick and those pieces which take longer. Being able to measure how long a piece takes can be more difficult than it seems, but a student who works on understanding how long it takes to learn a given piece will benefit from a more efficient study approach. Too many students study pieces which take too long, this is a slow and inefficient path to take although it can be a source of great joy for some and in that case go for it! But to develop your rate of learning you need to work with material which you can learn efficiently, then you can slowly raise the difficulty level of what you can learn efficiently.

You are here assuming that it takes long because the pieces are more difficult. But really, for some people it takes long no matter how short and how easy the pieces are. I speak from experience. I have never encountered a piece I could properly learn in a week, no matter how short and how easy. Often the "easy" parts are those that take the longest. "Getting it" or to be able to play through once or twice without mistakes is not what takes such a long time, quite the contrary, but to develope any kind of consistency just seems to take a huge amount of time. It seems like when the mind is too full of ideas and always wants to experiment rather than repeat, everything has to be ingrained in the memory in more than one way to create that consistency...

[outin]

Then you are still thinking about pieces that are too hard.

See my answer above.
Last summer I decided to learn a piece that was half page long and I think it's grade 1 or 2. After about a week I gave up because I just couldn't get it into my head...and there were no technical difficulties, just learning the notes
With your logic everything written for the piano is probably too difficult then...maybe some people should just quit?

[falala]

Do you have a teacher?

[outin]

Do you have a teacher?

If you mean me and not the OP, yes I do.

[kevin69]

See my answer above.
Last summer I decided to learn a piece that was half page long and I think it's grade 1 or 2. After about a week I gave up because I just couldn't get it into my head...and there were no technical difficulties, just learning the notes
With your logic everything written for the piano is probably too difficult then...maybe some people should just quit?

Not quit, no, just keep finding simpler things until you can find something you *can* memorise.
If half a page of grade 1 is too consitently too hard, then reduce it to one phrase.
Or one measure.
Or one note.
And then build up again.

And if one note is too hard, then yes, quit

[outin]

Not quit, no, just keep finding simpler things until you can find something you *can* memorise.
If half a page of grade 1 is too consitently too hard, then reduce it to one phrase.
Or one measure.
Or one note.
And then build up again.

And if one note is too hard, then yes, quit

It sounds easy and simple, but it just does not work that way. I have tried that approach and it doesn't make it any faster, rather the opposite. Sometimes one note really can be too hard to remember
I do not learn sequentially by starting from a small part and then adding to it. I've studied quite a few things besides piano and it's the same with everything. According to research I am not the only one...

I have of course considered quitting because clearly I could use my time more efficiently in something where my natural aptitudes would be beneficial rather than limiting. But something is not letting me quit  

[kevin69]

It sounds easy and simple, but it just does not work that way. I have tried that approach and it doesn't make it any faster, rather the opposite. Sometimes one note really can be too hard to remember

Oh, i'm really surprised by this.

I made the usual mistake of thinking that my [common] experience was universal.

If you don't learn by chunking and then building bigger chunks then what works for you?

[lostinidlewonder]

You are here assuming that it takes long because the pieces are more difficult.

That is not an assumption it is a truth, the harder the music the more time it takes to learn.

But really, for some people it takes long no matter how short and how easy the pieces are.

From my experience teaching piano to hundreds of students I have never come across anyone who
takes a long time to learn everything no matter how easy it is.

I have never encountered a piece I could properly learn in a week, no matter how short and how easy.

This makes me think you have not experienced works that are easy enough. I know studying music can be frustrating and we can want to get everything perfect, but I am sure you could learn single hand position pieces in a flash. You need to start questioning what has to change to cause you to start taking more time to learn a piece. This answer is quite elaborate and discovered through our study of piano works that are at a suitable level encouraging an efficient learning rate.

[outin]

Oh, i'm really surprised by this.

I made the usual mistake of thinking that my [common] experience was universal.

If you don't learn by chunking and then building bigger chunks then what works for you?

I have to get a general idea of the finished product first and then I can start filling that "whole picture" with the details.

[outin]

That is not an assumption it is a truth, the harder the music the more time it takes to learn.

But of course! That does not automatically mean that the time required can be reduced infinitely by just making the music more simple.

From my experience teaching piano to hundreds of students I have never come across anyone who
takes a long time to learn everything no matter how easy it is.

My teacher sometimes seems a bit puzzled by me also

Of course it depends on what you consider "learned" and what you consider a long time. You must remember that when there are other things that require a lot of brain power a week really is not such a long time. Are you saying you do not see individual differences in your students in the time they require for learning when the difficulty is properly suited for them? Or do you just assume it's because they practice less or work less "smart"?

As for experiencing easy works...what would you consider really easy? Is there something easier than Bartok's Mikrokosmos vol 1? Or grade one method books?

[lostinidlewonder]

But of course! That does not automatically mean that the time required can be reduced infinitely by just making the music more simple.

It is quite an interesting effect when you start improving your playing based on music you can learn at an efficient rate compared to improving via just playing and improving sound/technique of limited pieces. When I first started out learning the piano I would learn anything I wanted to, no matter how difficult. I did Beethoven Sonatas at the age of 8 and spent months learning movements. But now if I return to those same pieces I can learn them in much more faster time, I have the tools and know how to get it learned. But you must humble yourself and learn music which is at your level. I certainly felt bad when I was playing Beethoven Sonatas and did my first piano exam at grade 2!!! But learning step by step and improving systematically sets up a foundation to deal with works which otherwise would simply remain difficult and always require massive amounts of time to get through.

My teacher sometimes seems a bit puzzled by me also

A lot of my students puzzle me too but that's the great joy of musical education to work out how we learn.

Of course it depends on what you consider "learned" and what you consider a long time. You must remember that when there are other things that require a lot of brain power a week really is not such a long time. Are you saying you do not see individual differences in your students in the time they require for learning when the difficulty is properly suited for them? Or do you just assume it's because they practice less or work less "smart"?

I always aim that students learn new material at a good rate, what is a good rate depends on the student of course. It is difficult to talk specifics on something that is a very individual matter. However we can have constants, like determining what pieces can be learned in fast time and those which take longer. Aim to study those that can be learned somewhat fast because you will grow your experience base which is invaluable and can automatically improve your playing/learning in so many ways.

[lostinidlewonder]

As for experiencing easy works...what would you consider really easy? Is there something easier than Bartok's Mikrokosmos vol 1? Or grade one method books?

There are plenty of contemporary pieces which are quite easy and also enjoyable. The internet is a great place to research all the repertoire that is out there, it would be just random advice if I started suggesting pieces. If you are lucky enough to have a good teacher they can guide you through repertoire that could be learned at an efficient learning rate. It is much more fun to explore yourself and see what is out there, your task is made even more easy with access to recordings which can play pieces for you. I remember before the internet I would have to learn pieces to work out what they sounded like, I even would input notes on my old Commodore 64 to hear what fast pieces should sound like. Nowadays it is so much easier to educate yourself and discover what you like. It is however no more easy to determine your level, getting to know your limitations (and systematically improving them) is a big challenge.

[outin]

A lot of my students puzzle me too but that's the great joy of musical education to work out how we learn.
I always aim that students learn new material at a good rate, what is a good rate depends on the student of course. It is difficult to talk specifics on something that is a very individual matter. However we can have constants, like determining what pieces can be learned in fast time and those which take longer.

I can certainly agree with you here. Most music would take far too long to learn with my present skills and it would not be very smart to study it. I do occasionally study pieces that are "too hard", but mainly I work on pieces that my teacher thinks are suitable. But really, the pieces that are easier are not learned faster. The time it takes for me to memorize seems to depend on the amount of measures on the page and the length of the piece more than anything else. The other factor is the relationships with the notes. Things with simple individual lines are harder for me to memorize than things with several simultaneous voices (That is probably the reason why I find low grade pieces so hard to learn). On the other hand, blocked chords always take me a long time to memorize.

We are here talking about managing repertoire and learning pieces to performance level, are we not? It just is not possible for me in a week because of my poor memory and concentration abilities. Just to learn the piece well enough to maybe manage to play it once to my teacher without mistakes is not what I consider learned. I would still need to worry about blackouts or forgetting to use the correct finger and getting mixed up. It just requires a longer process for me to get to even a moderately secure level of consistency. I don't really get to do that much during the lesson periods, because my teacher wants us to go through new material instead of working on the same pieces until I am really secure with them. If I did grades we would have to, but that's not important for me.

[outin]

There are plenty of contemporary pieces which are quite easy and also enjoyable. The internet is a great place to research all the repertoire that is out there, it would be just random advice if I started suggesting pieces. If you are lucky enough to have a good teacher they can guide you through repertoire that could be learned at an efficient learning rate. It is much more fun to explore yourself and see what is out there, your task is made even more easy with access to recordings which can play pieces for you. I remember before the internet I would have to learn pieces to work out what they sounded like, I even would input notes on my old Commodore 64 to hear what fast pieces should sound like. Nowadays it is so much easier to educate yourself and discover what you like. It is however no more easy to determine your level, getting to know your limitations (and systematically improving them) is a big challenge.

I am constantly finding new music that I like and lots of it is considered easy, so that's not a problem for me. I have enough sheet music from various levels to last me a lifetime
I also think I am quite aware of my limitations (which are numerous) so that's not a problem either. I've simply accepted the fact that I learn slowly because none of the numerous efforts to change that has made any difference.

[lostinidlewonder]

We are here talking about managing repertoire and learning pieces to performance level, are we not? It just is not possible for me in a week because of my poor memory and concentration abilities.

Simplify, do easier works, get through pieces from start to finish to mastery fast. It often means doing pieces far below what you think is your level, but if you take this step and learn a lot of music, you will benefit. Sight reading is a key skill that commands the rate in which someone can memorize a piece. Learning many pieces also trains reading skills, something which can be stunted if studying only limited pieces.

I've simply accepted the fact that I learn slowly because none of the numerous efforts to change that has made any difference.

I can sympathize with your situation. I have met students who make limited improvement but there is always improvement and those that are willing can almost always recreate and create new ways in which they see the piano.

There are often situations in our life where we Do not know that we Do not know. We often need good guidance from someone greater than us for us to over come these obstacles. I find this especially true for piano as I am referred students who have been taught ineffectively for years sometimes only to see them finally make progress and shift out of the hole that their previous teachers did not recognize.

[outin]

Simplify, do easier works, get through pieces from start to finish to mastery fast. It often means doing pieces far below what you think is your level, but if you take this step and learn a lot of music, you will benefit. Sight reading is a key skill that commands the rate in which someone can memorize a piece. Learning many pieces also trains reading skills, something which can be stunted if studying only limited pieces.

I don't see myself as having any "level". Some things I can already do/understand and some (much more) I can't. I guess fast learning of pieces isn't the point either, for me it's more important to achieve a certain quality in playing, even if I only could memorize a handful of pieces. That's why I feel I have the right kind of teacher, that's what she is focused on too. If I was allowed to just play the pieces with less emphasis on movement and sound details, probably I could learn the notes much faster, but would it be worth it? I am expecting the time invested now to pay me back in the future. Hopefully a time comes when I can concentrate more on the piano study, right now I am under such pressure from what pays the bills that it is inevitably slowing down my learning.

You are right about the importance of sight reading and I am trying to get over my problems with that, but that too will be a long and slow process that is not made any easier by my sight issues. If I could sight read well, I wouldn't even bother with memorizing...

I can sympathize with your situation. I have met students who make limited improvement but there is always improvement and those that are willing can almost always recreate and create new ways in which they see the piano.

There are often situations in our life where we Do not know that we Do not know. We often need good guidance from someone greater than us for us to over come these obstacles. I find this especially true for piano as I am referred students who have been taught ineffectively for years sometimes only to see them finally make progress and shift out of the hole that their previous teachers did not recognize.

Thanks for the sympathy

Don't get me wrong, I do see improvement and I have progressed when it comes to the quality and efficiency of playing. In my age I have the advantage of knowing myself and my learning style pretty well and I am also able to not blindly do what I am told, but instead experiment and find different suggestions. Some things my teacher has suggested simply did not work, but in general I really get a lot from the teaching.

[escapereality]

@falala I'm self-studying now, but I have learned under a teacher (different ones, though) for nine years.

@outin Learning the notes takes a long time. Sometimes, after bashing a passage for an extended amount of time - trying to get it perfect and memorized - and coming back to it the day after I still forget. People would say stuff like: "that passage is too long, break it up" but really that would result in snail-pace learning.

My slow learning may be a consequence of a limited repertoire. However, I know people who have played less pieces than I have and yet still learn more quickly. I'm looking for advice on practice.

So, from reading, I'm seeing that the general advice is to sight-read more.
One concern...should I sight-read pieces that have similar techniques to those of the piece I'm attempting? Or will any easy-enough piece do?

[faulty_damper]

You're probably not repeating enough.

[gregh]

You are here assuming that it takes long because the pieces are more difficult. But really, for some people it takes long no matter how short and how easy the pieces are. I speak from experience. I have never encountered a piece I could properly learn in a week, no matter how short and how easy.

Are you talking now about artistically satisfying, or just knowing which keys to press? Or are your standards for which piece to learn just a little higher? I mean, if you were facing a few lines of "Michael Row the Boat Ashore", I think it wouldn't take you more than a week of diligent practice before you could play it from memory.

[kevin69]

Are there other things that you can memorise easily?
Can you draw a parallel between something you find easy to memorise and the music you find hard?
(and note that easy-to-play and easy-to-memorise are probably different).

For myself, i have a pretty good memory for song lyrics so i find songs much easier to memorise than lyric-less pieces of similar playing difficulty. The example above of 'Michael, row the boat ashore' would be fine for me, because the lyrics tie the whole piece together (for me) and give the overview that i can attach phrases and notes to.

Perhaps a hymn-book would work for you?

[faulty_damper]

And if you are repeating enough, you aren't recalling enough.

[outin]

Are you talking now about artistically satisfying, or just knowing which keys to press?

I'm not sure I can separate those anymore...my teacher's fault. She has filled my head with things I need to always consider while playing/practicing.

I think I did learn the notes faster with the other teacher or when I was self learning, but then again, that's all I learned...

I wish I could memorize the notes away from the piano before I start practicing, but I am totally unable to do that. 

I mean, if you were facing a few lines of "Michael Row the Boat Ashore", I think it wouldn't take you more than a week of diligent practice before you could play it from memory.

I'm not familiar with that piece at all...But you are probably right, I could learn the notes in a day or two, but would I be able to play it consistently? Maybe not, I can already see my concentration failing

[outin]

Are there other things that you can memorise easily?
Can you draw a parallel between something you find easy to memorise and the music you find hard?
(and note that easy-to-play and easy-to-memorise are probably different).

For myself, i have a pretty good memory for song lyrics so i find songs much easier to memorise than lyric-less pieces of similar playing difficulty. The example above of 'Michael, row the boat ashore' would be fine for me, because the lyrics tie the whole piece together (for me) and give the overview that i can attach phrases and notes to.

I cannot memorize much of anything really, never could...I am a fast and efficient reader, but I cannot memorize text. When I studied physics I could never remember the formulas, I had to create them from the scratch in the exams. I cannot memorize any phone numbers (people used to do that before the cell phones).

I have always had trouble with song lyrics, the melody I learn quick, but with the text I find myself improvising quite often...

The biggest problem with piano seems to be that I have to remember two things fast at once: Which key to press and which finger to use. Even though I remember perfectly well what sound I need to create, it's not enough because I cannot always remember which key produces the sound or which finger I am supposed to use.

I need both repetitions and breaks to be able to effectively retrieve things from my memory, that's probably why it takes me so long. The things are somewhere in my head clearly, because I can occasionally play even the new pieces flawlessly. What makes it slow is that repetitions only work in very small doses. If I repeat something more than 2 or 3 times, something always changes. It happens involuntarily. It is something with my mind, a deep unconscious dislike for similarity.

I only ever feel safe with things when I am good enough to be able to improvise when the memory fails, like public speaking or singing. I may get little blackouts, but people don't even notice because I recover so fast. I'm hoping that could happen with the piano one day...

[falala]

If you mean me and not the OP, yes I do.

No I meant the OP

[kevin69]

I cannot memorize much of anything really, never could...I am a fast and efficient reader, but I cannot memorize text. When I studied physics I could never remember the formulas, I had to create them from the scratch in the exams. I cannot memorize any phone numbers (people used to do that before the cell phones).

Since you studied physics, then i'd guess you have an aptitude for systems
and that its the individuality of the notes that causes the problem.

How strong is your music theory?

One alternative approach would be to learn the piece through analysis rather than memorisation.
That is, really study the notes and chords so that at every note you can say 'the composer chose this note next because....'. I don't think it matters much if your reasoning is 'correct', it is more that you are creating a chain of logic that describes the note progression, and the chain of logic might build into an overall system that reminds you how the piece works.

If this kind of analysis works for you, there probably are some technically complex pieces you'll be able to analyse (and hence remember) easily but some technically simple pieces that you won't find an internal logic for, and hence won't remember.

Since this is the internet, i've not actually tried working through a piece in this way, so i'd be interested if it does work, or not.

[outin]

Since you studied physics, then i'd guess you have an aptitude for systems
and that its the individuality of the notes that causes the problem.

How strong is your music theory?

One alternative approach would be to learn the piece through analysis rather than memorisation.
That is, really study the notes and chords so that at every note you can say 'the composer chose this note next because....'. I don't think it matters much if your reasoning is 'correct', it is more that you are creating a chain of logic that describes the note progression, and the chain of logic might build into an overall system that reminds you how the piece works.

If this kind of analysis works for you, there probably are some technically complex pieces you'll be able to analyse (and hence remember) easily but some technically simple pieces that you won't find an internal logic for, and hence won't remember.

Since this is the internet, i've not actually tried working through a piece in this way, so i'd be interested if it does work, or not.

You are so right about theory and my need for logical systems. I often feel that if I was able to build on theory I could get over the "mindless" memorizing part. Then again, I don't have the time or energy to really work on theory enough to be able to apply it. I remember bits and pieces, but not enough to be able to really build on it. Far too many keys and chords to fit in 

This is one part where having a teacher is a problem. During the summer when I did not have lessons I was able to concentrate also on sight-reading practice and theory, but now there's too much to do and it's hard enough to keep up with practicing the physical side of playing.

[kevin69]

This paper by chaffin & logan gives a fairly detailed description of how one
concert pianist memorised a piece:
https://www.ac-psych.org/download.php?id=14

Its very interesting how the different layers of structure fit together.

[outin]

This paper by chaffin & logan gives a fairly detailed description of how one
concert pianist memorised a piece:
https://www.ac-psych.org/download.php?id=14

Its very interesting how the different layers of structure fit together.

There's actually a whole book published about the same research, it's quite interesting reading:
https://www.amazon.com/Practicing-Perfection-Performance-Expertise-Applications/dp/0415651026