How to advance in repertoire

[chicoscalco]

It's my first time posting here  So. I have started having lessons at the age of three, and since then it has been a rollercoaster in terms of repertoire. One of the times I switched teachers I went from playing a Chopin Scherzo to a playing Bach Inventions hands separately    Although I think it was good for me, I wanna hear your opinion on advancing with repertoire.
Do you think it is beneficial to be "conservative", playing only pieces you can easily "master", or do you think a more advanced repertoire helps more?
I tend to, nowadays, lean towards a more conservative repertoire, but one of these days I heard a recording of the great Nelson Freire, 11 years old, butchering Chopin's 4th ballade! An absolute disaster. He later moved to Europe to study and today he's fantastic This bugged me a little hehe 
Well then, thanks for the attention!

[indianajo]

I nearly always start everything hand separately, very slowly.  It doesn't have anything to do with how hard the piece is, usually.  That is when I work out my fingering, which because of the shape of my hands, is often quite different than what the editors suggest.  I log my ideas with a pencil on the score.  
I did not go directly from John Schaum method book 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5.  Starting about book 2, my teacher had me play pieces out of different collections that weren't graded, so I never knew what grade I was.  Only in the Edna Mae Berman exercises did I go from one exercise to the next in order, then on to Czerny Book 1.  She thought Czerny book 2 was redundant. I didn't do that.  Boston pub numbers, I don't know how Czerny is packaged outside the USA.
Chopin is often rubato, which sounds good as a young player, but can tempt one to fail to learn to count correctly.  Playing in groups with a choir, soloist, or ensemble, effective steady rhythm is a key skill to success. It should  be learned early rather than later.  J. S Bach and sons are good playable pieces to demonstrate your steady rhythm and articulation on. Chopin is good for emotional expression. 
Since I bought a piano I have not used a teacher, and have been playing material that is probably too hard for me.  If I don't keep practice steadily, I have to play Scott Joplin rags (Paragon, Magnetic, Maple Leaf) as exercises to build the strength in my forearm muscles back up.  I have just about recovered from the summer in the country where I didn't have access to a piano, and the mice had eaten the wiring to my organ out there so I didn't play that, either.  
But anyway, by playing one hand alone, slowly, writing down my fingering and flagging my chronic mistakes, I am getting command of pieces I've heard at Master's recitals over at the University.  All three movements of Beethoven Sonata Op 27 #2, and Moussorgski's Pictures at An Exhibition are what I have been working on the last couple of years.  My teacher gave me and took away again Pathetique Sonata my last month of lessons, so I think I have advanced some.
If you are not completely through the Berman & Czerny exercises, you may need intermediate material to keep your interest up.  Everything has a grade now on some website, to give one some idea of what to purchase.  composers I played in the intermediate years were Gottchalk, Lecuona, Granados, Mozart, Beethoven, Sousa, J S Bach and sons, others.  A teacher is as much use for guiding you to new repretoire that is not like what you have done before, as marking up your chronic mistakes.  You don't have to take a lesson every week, some teachers will allow you to call in when you are ready to finish something old and start something new.  
Have fun.  

[j_menz]

It seems to me that there are two reasons to take on a piece. You may like it. You may learn something from it. The two are not exclusive of each other, of course.

There are more things to learn than just mechanical pyrotechnics, and these are often better learnt in the absence of that requirement. It is best for learning that there is not too many things to take in at one bite.

So to give my answer to your question, "Do you think it is beneficial to be "conservative", playing only pieces you can easily "master", or do you think a more advanced repertoire helps more?", my answer is to do both, and learn from each piece what it is best suited to teach you.

[chicoscalco]

Thank you for your answers!
I agree that we should be learning what each piece can teach us, but can't we take up "bad habits" playing a piece too early on? For instance, that chopin ballade I mentioned, isn't it counterproductive to tackle this piece when you are not ready, thus memorizing mistakes (not just wrong notes) that later will be very difficult to forget?

[j_menz]

The risks are not so much with a piece that is too big a leap but rather with any piece which you do not know (or can't be shown) how to approach it. Then the risks are learning it badly and the potential for injury.

There is a question of efficiency, though.  Ofttimes you would learn more, and more quickly, by taking a lesser/more manageable leap.

[chopin2015]

Thank you for your answers!
I agree that we should be learning what each piece can teach us, but can't we take up "bad habits" playing a piece too early on? For instance, that chopin ballade I mentioned, isn't it counterproductive to tackle this piece when you are not ready, thus memorizing mistakes (not just wrong notes) that later will be very difficult to forget?

you forget there are different ways of playing piano. By looking at your hands (you can always retrain your hands) by thinking and analyzing (you forget things even if you know the entire piece, so you can easily learn new things) and by learning away from the piano/applying what you learn as soon as possible after taking in new information. Mistakes are nothing, they are not detrimental to success. If you think they are, if you think that way....you will never get over butchering a piece...


Ultimately, just do the best and as much as you can, on your own. Make sure to have insight from the best, to help you keep moving along.

[chicoscalco]

you forget there are different ways of playing piano. By looking at your hands (you can always retrain your hands) by thinking and analyzing (you forget things even if you know the entire piece, so you can easily learn new things) and by learning away from the piano/applying what you learn as soon as possible after taking in new information. Mistakes are nothing, they are not detrimental to success. If you think they are, if you think that way....you will never get over butchering a piece...

Can you please explain what do you categorize as mistakes? For me, mistakes may be incorrect phrasing, a harsh tone due to lack of technique, wrong notes, I dunno... The whole idea of the piece, the way you see it. Sometimes when we're young we don't have to capacity to comprehend what we are playing. We do not ask ourselves why do we do it this way, and not the other. And from experience from all of my teachers, once it's there, it is very difficult to change. It gets stuck, that idea, that logic and muscle memory. That is why every time I start a new piece I play painfully slow a couple of times. It is crucial to avoid bad habits.

[chopin2015]

Can you please explain what do you categorize as mistakes? For me, mistakes may be incorrect phrasing, a harsh tone due to lack of technique, wrong notes, I dunno... The whole idea of the piece, the way you see it. Sometimes when we're young we don't have to capacity to comprehend what we are playing. We do not ask ourselves why do we do it this way, and not the other. And from experience from all of my teachers, once it's there, it is very difficult to change. It gets stuck, that idea, that logic and muscle memory. That is why every time I start a new piece I play painfully slow a couple of times. It is crucial to avoid bad habits.

no, some things only time can fix. You can't just fix a harsh tone. My first teacher said to me, tone takes years. People get jealous of people who naturally have a good tone. However, there are so many nuances that have to be taken into account, that it is job that can only be done subconsciously. Which starts with becoming aware of your mistakes, or tone, or phrasing. Or, simply...just improve on everything, always.

Yes, a piece is never done. There are so many ways of playing one piece. Which means, there are better ways and there are worse. Style and taste can be overwhelming. But bad habits are nothing. They can be smoothed out. However, I do not know who I am talking to.

I have an insane amount of patience and enthusiasm. And pain thresh is pretty high, too. I love to learn, at any cost.

 If I find that I have a bad habit or a lack in clarity or what-have-you, I will find a way to manage this, and eventually move forward. Or, just think and do.

[chicoscalco]

no, some things only time can fix. You can't just fix a harsh tone. My first teacher said to me, tone takes years. People get jealous of people who naturally have a good tone. However, there are so many nuances that have to be taken into account, that it is job that can only be done subconsciously. Which starts with becoming aware of your mistakes, or tone, or phrasing. Or, simply...just improve on everything, always.

Yes, a piece is never done. There are so many ways of playing one piece. Which means, there are better ways and there are worse. Style and taste can be overwhelming. But bad habits are nothing. They can be smoothed out. However, I do not know who I am talking to.

I have an insane amount of patience and enthusiasm. And pain thresh is pretty high, too. I love to learn, at any cost.

 If I find that I have a bad habit or a lack in clarity or what-have-you, I will find a way to manage this, and eventually move forward. Or, just think and do.

Yeah, you are right when you say we never finish a piece, I agree, and I also agree that it is possible to overcome "bad habits" and all. But I am certain that it is easier and quicker to learn a piece from scratch than to "realearn" a piece, on performance level, that you have played badly a long time ago. It is harder to overcome bad habits, not impossible. That is why I lean towards a more conservative repertoire. I try to play only pieces witch I can manage the mechanical part almost effortlessly, so I can work on, as you said, taste and style.

[chopin2015]

I do not understand what is so difficult about relearning a piece. You are not helping yourself and are going against the possibility of overcoming bad habits, by trying to relearn a piece by looking at it the same way.

Every day, you can relearn a piece to some degree. All you have to do is have an idea of what is right, and see right away what you are doing is wrong.

It is so much easier to learn an idea of what the most professional way to play piano or whatever, than to build the slow, strong foundation to support your ideas. In that sense, somewhat, yes. You can have a solid foundation, starting with compact repertoire. However, this will leave you anticipating everything that is truly challenging to any advancing pianist...

I was not able to complete that last thought. Sorry...

I do not have a reason why, but I think there is no reason not to work on repertoire you are unable to learn simply/not completing it, as long as you are focusing on productivity in some sense. Why did you fail at your goal? What was difficult and how are you going to approach this?


One thing I can add to anyone's curiosity in my experiment...at first, when I learnt pieces beyond my skill level yet still improving my skill level (not my practice, though. at first.)...I forgot the pieces very often than not. One piece stuck partially from the beginning. Ballade no. 1. I learnt everything I know in that piece. I never forgot everything, after forgetting many pieces. I kept layering details in that piece, with better practice and improved listening based on increased awareness (with help of lessons and ear training, and now theory)...I would think I have relearnt the piece by now, and at the same time, many many many pieces. I relearnt music and technique.

Yes, a simple repertoire is good. But you should still improve at it, no matter what level you are able to play better. Whether it is reading off the page or transposing it, or whatever.

So sorry for the random excited rant.  

relearning a piece also constitutes for remembering it better. I promise, I have found...eventually you will not forget pieces. At least, everything but a little bit, you will remember.

[indianajo]

I'm afraid of "muscle memory" (cerebellum memorization I call it) only in terms of learning the wrong notes.  Wrong fingering sequences can be counter productive later if you want to speed up or change to legato or something, but I have proved I can re-learn those by going back to pieces i did 50 years ago.  I find the cerebellum memorization allows me to concentrate on the interpretation of the piece, instead of the mechanics.  I can change the interpretation at any point, that is the joy of playing an instrument. When you play a recording, it is the same every time.  Not necessarily when I play it.
I take up pieces that are too hard for me to keep from being bored.  Some people climb rock walls for excitement, some people take illegal drugs for excitement, I play beautiful piano and organ pieces that are too hard for me.    i dreamed a piece i am working on last night, and woke up at 5 AM to work on it. I really want to play that piece.   I've been working on that piece off and on for 31 years, and will probably be able to get through it entirely without mistakes this winter.  Then comes refinement and interpretation, over the next 30 years perhaps.
As far as learning stupid sounding interpretations as a student, this shouldn't be possible in this day of free media over your cell phone.  I don't like cell phone fidelity, but I do like listening to pieces I am working on played by someone else.  That way I can pick and chose which way I want to play it, or make up something new just because I am me.  
However, working with a teacher, playing repretoire just a little harder than you can play saves money and time.  He/She wants you to learn a certain piece to learn a certain style or technique, a couple of weeks is the most productive use of her/his time.  Save the too-hard stuff for your own independent efforts, so it doesn't cost you a mint and frustrate your teacher with messy or super slow attempts that you yourself know are wrong or too slow.
Have fun.  

[chopin2015]

Listening to a piece is not how you learn to interpret written music and test everything you know about reading and learning music.

[chicoscalco]

Listening to a piece is not how you learn to interpret written music and test everything you know about reading and learning music.

I agree... As a matter of fact, I believe to be beneficial to abstain from listening to too much recordings of a piece you are working on.