Is there a natural progression in terms of playing more difficult music?

[shellfishsea]

I apologize if the title is strangely worded.

As a student, how do you "know" if you're ready to tackle difficult pieces (eg. Beethoven's later sonatas)? Would you have to master that particular composer's easier works before attempting them?

[j_menz]

There's no "natural progression", and it's not strictly necessary, but I generally find it useful to at least play some of a composer's technically easier works to get a feel for their thinking before attempting something more challenging - it seems to make it easier.

In the case of the late Beethoven sonatas, they would be a very bad place to start Beethoven - you should have at least played most of the others (not necessarily brought up to performance standard) first.

[brogers70]

I've generally found that I underestimated what I was ready to attempt. Several times I've mentioned pieces to my teacher which I thought were a couple of years down the road and she's said I was ready to start them right away. And, in fact, she was often right; they were more accessible than I had thought. An outside view of what you are ready for can be very helpful.

[steve_uk]

I have also been frustrated at teachers who won't do their job of teaching but insist on me playing  easier pieces that I don't have an affinity with,then complain when I'm slow to pick up on The Well-Tempered Clavier book they've just thrown at me. It's their job to put in correct fingering and listen whilst I play and make practical suggestions,not to give up because a piece is beyond me and dangle the piece I want to play as years down the line,when working on just two bars seems beyond ther patience and comprehension.

[chicoscalco]

I have also been frustrated at teachers who won't do their job of teaching but insist on me playing  easier pieces that I don't have an affinity with,then complain when I'm slow to pick up on The Well-Tempered Clavier book they've just thrown at me. It's their job to put in correct fingering and listen whilst I play and make practical suggestions,not to give up because a piece is beyond me and dangle the piece I want to play as years down the line,when working on just two bars seems beyond ther patience and comprehension.

I don't understand your last sentence. Giving up, patience... could you explain better?
As for fingering, they sure have to guide you, but they don't have your hands. You are the one responsible for your fingerings. They cannot not for certain what suits you best...

[steve_uk]

Some people learn more slowly than others,yet it's often the teachers who profess to be the most enthusiastic and caring in their advertisements who don't have the patience when you hold on a crotchet which shouldn't be held(this was a direct experience of mine) and use this as an excuse not to teach the whole piece! Any piece can be broken down into constituent parts and I don't agree that fingering is the pupil's responsibility either:it's part of why I pay a teacher handsomely to look at my hands and direct a pencil con moto across the ledger lines..

[chicoscalco]

Some people learn more slowly than others,yet it's often the teachers who profess to be the most enthusiastic and caring in their advertisements who don't have the patience when you hold on a crotchet which shoudn't be held(this was a direct experience of mine) and use this as an excuse not to teach the whole piece! Any piece can be broken down into constituent parts and I don't agree that fingering is the pupil's responsibility either:it's part of why I pay a teacher handsomely to look at my hands and direct a pencil con moto across the ledger lines..

I too have had pieces taken away from me (for the moment) because of reasons incomprehensible for me. But that is the whole point of having a teacher... Of course we should trust ourselves, but the point of having someone more experienced teaching us is to trust their judgement and learn with it. Perhaps it was not only the note you held, but what this meant inside the context... The process of learning is a very difficult one. Everyone says it is difficult to be a master, a teacher, but it is also very difficult to be a student. One has to to be very humble.
That being said, I don't have a clue if that's your case. I'm not pointing fingers. I don't know you nor your teacher, so well, can't say anything. But you just know when you're in the presence of a master, a great pedagogue... In my case, the only one I can truly speak of, I already jumped form a Chopin Scherzo to a Bach 2 hand invention. It was excruciatingly frustrating, yes, but after it all I learned a lot. IMO that's the reason we have a teacher. To approach things in ways we would never approach.

[j_menz]

I don't agree that fingering is the pupil's responsibility either:it's part of why I pay a teacher handsomely to look at my hands and direct a pencil con moto across the ledger lines..

It should be a teachers responsibility to show you how to work out good fingering.  That would be worth paying handsomely for; what you are getting - "use this fingering" - isn't worth the money.

You are, after all, trying to learn how to play the piano. Not just to play as you are told, but to equip you to go off and do stuff on your own. Unless you are planning on paying handsomely forever.

[steve_uk]

It should be a teachers responsibility to show you how to work out good fingering.  That would be worth paying handsomely for; what you are getting - "use this fingering" - isn't worth the money.

You are, after all, trying to learn how to play the piano. Not just to play as you are told, but to equip you to go off and do stuff on your own. Unless you are planning on paying handsomely forever.

You have to be spoon fed at the beginning unless you're a prodigy and most of us are not. I've heard this trust in the teacher before but as someone started a thread I replied to just now one knows instinctively if something is wrong,and a syllabus with some direction is often a compromise solution to a teacher who has forgotten what passed between himself and pupil the previous week. Modern syllabuses have a variety of choice to suit every age,and I don't accept the excuse  to diverge from this because  "this piece can be played in a Grade 3 or a Grade 6 way" when it's pretty obvious I'm past that stage and I do wish to be stretched whilst being motivated by a teacher who cares.

[chicoscalco]

You have to be spoon fed at the beginning unless you're a prodigy and most of us are not. I've heard this trust in the teacher before but as someone started a thread I replied to just now one knows instinctively if something is wrong,and a syllabus with some direction is often a compromise solution to a teacher who has forgotten what passed between himself and pupil the previous week. Modern syllabuses have a variety of choice to suit every age,and I don't accept the excuse  to diverge from this because  "this piece can be played in a Grade 3 or a Grade 6 way" when it's pretty obvious I'm past that stage and I do wish to be stretched whilst being motivated by a teacher who cares.

I guess it all boils down to just what do you wish to do with the instrument, where do you wanna go... And that is something you have to decide when choosing a teacher, and maybe even talk with the one you have.  Some people only want to play for pleasure, so there's no real problem in "skipping some steps". But if you are serious and have a more professional approach to the music... then you are the one who has to find a way to motivate yourself. Wether you want it or not, you are not always gonna play what you like.
I don't know if you want that kind of exposition, if you don't want to talk about your case... but if you do, can you please tell us more about it? What are your "goals" with piano? Your teacher's curriculum, how long have you been playing...
Sorry if you don't to talk about it, but I'm curious about your case.

[j_menz]

You have to be spoon fed at the beginning

Nor did I suggest otherwise. But along the way, you need to be taught to feed yourself. And the sooner that starts, the better.

[steve_uk]

I guess it all boils down to just what do you wish to do with the instrument, where do you wanna go... And that is something you have to decide when choosing a teacher, and maybe even talk with the one you have.  Some people only want to play for pleasure, so there's no real problem in "skipping some steps". But if you are serious and have a more professional approach to the music... then you are the one who has to find a way to motivate yourself. Wether you want it or not, you are not always gonna play what you like.
I don't know if you want that kind of exposition, if you don't want to talk about your case... but if you do, can you please tell us more about it? What are your "goals" with piano? Your teacher's curriculum, how long have you been playing...
Sorry if you don't to talk about it, but I'm curious about your case.

Well there's no right way to learn and there are some ideas on the Thinking while playing thread that I may well try out over Christmas. I'm an adult learner  of several years and time is precious,but we all make choices and have to compromise on some aspect of our lives if we want to improve as pianists,which should always be our goal. Don't get me wrong:it's not the teacher's job to magic a performance from a pupil who has done no practice whatsoever the preceding week,but they should motivate a pupil into wanting to practise and have strategies which move their pupil from overreliance on muscle memory to mastering ever more difficult pieces. I know everyone is different but I must say I have found working towards exams a good motivator.

[outin]

Nor did I suggest otherwise. But along the way, you need to be taught to feed yourself. And the sooner that starts, the better.

Actually beginner or not, I never expected to be spoon fed...that would be a good reason to change the teacher.

A little help guiding the spoon to the right direction every now and then is ok 

Even if my teacher does sometimes write fingering suggestions for me when I try to sight read something new with her or I've been too lazy to think myself, quite often they have to be changed after I actually start practicing the spot. I think it's a ridiculous idea that a teacher should write in fingerings for the student. Use lesson time for that? The way to learn is to try first and then ask help if you can't find a solution on your own. And in the very beginning the pieces usually have the fingerings already printed.

[steve_uk]

Actually beginner or not, I never expected to be spoon fed...that would be a good reason to change the teacher.

A little help guiding the spoon to the right direction every now and then is ok 

Even if my teacher does sometimes write fingering suggestions for me when I try to sight read something new with her or I've been too lazy to think myself, quite often they have to be changed after I actually start practicing the spot. I think it's a ridiculous idea that a teacher should write in fingerings for the student. Use lesson time for that? The way to learn is to try first and then ask help if you can't find a solution on your own. And in the very beginning the pieces usually have the fingerings already printed.

I was talking about more advanced pieces which I still insist I play better if fingering is marked in. Take it as a guide if you don't accept it as gospel. I'm also curious as to what students here are actually paying for:there are many brilliant pianists out there who can't teach for toffee as well as a few charlatans..

[Bob]

I wonder if the progression is to work on a more difficult piece, get ideas from the teacher to speed things up, eventually overcome the piece and move up to a new playing level.

[steve_uk]

I wonder if the progression is to work on a more difficult piece, get ideas from the teacher to speed things up, eventually overcome the piece and move up to a new playing level.

Yes,and to go back to shellfishsea's initial comment it's great that one feels the need to broaden one's horizons in the first place,even if the pieces you aspire to play are a few years down the line.

[chicoscalco]

Yes,and to go back to shellfishsea's initial comment it's great that one feels the need to broaden one's horizons in the first place,even if the pieces you aspire to play are a few years down the line.

Man, honestly, what it looks like is that you are mad because your teacher doesn't think you are ready for the sort of repertoire you want to play. This is very normal, believe me.

[steve_uk]

Man, honestly, what it looks like is that you are mad because your teacher doesn't think you are ready for the sort of repertoire you want to play. This is very normal, believe me.

Possibly chicoscalco,but there's only so long you can spend on Mozart or Schumann's Kinderszenen before an adult gets to screaming pitch..

[chicoscalco]

Possibly chicoscalco,but there's only so long you can spend on Mozart or Schumann's Kinderszenen before an adult gets to screaming pitch..

You can spend a lifetime in Mozart and Kinderszenen... You have to see where you want to get with music. Why choosing more difficult pieces, ones you won't be able to get up to performance standard? Just to say you can play them? Rushing through repertoire doesn't teach you music. It may help with, I don't know, finger dexterity, but you won't develop your artistic side.
And think about this. Martha Argerich stopped playing solo for a lot a time. The one piece she chose for the "comeback" was Schumann Kinderzenen. It is really difficult to perform Schumann well.

[j_menz]

It is really difficult to perform Schumann well.

THIS SPACE LEFT VACANT FOR COMMENT BY THALBERGMAD

[steve_uk]

I'll definitely take all the comments on board.Of course there's no substitute for the long hard slog.Who is Thalbergmad?

[pianoplunker]

I apologize if the title is strangely worded.

As a student, how do you "know" if you're ready to tackle difficult pieces (eg. Beethoven's later sonatas)? Would you have to master that particular composer's easier works before attempting them?

My thinking is that you should not be shy about trying something you have no business trying. ( when it comes to piano ) You may never know what you need to work on to accomplish pieces if you dont just give it a try in the first place. And you might find you actually are "ready".   Just dont get stuck on one or two pieces that take everything you have as far as time. This is where a teacher's feedback on the matter could be valuable. 

[pianoplunker]

I'll definitely take all the comments on board.Of course there's no substitute for the long hard slog.Who is Thalbergmad?

Thalbergmad is a poster who really loves Schumann. IF he were here on this thread he would probably recommend the original OP just play Schumann  Sonatas, not Beethoven. At least that is how I interpret his posts regarding Schumann. ;-)  Just do a search, you'll see

[outin]

I was talking about more advanced pieces which I still insist I play better if fingering is marked in. Take it as a guide if you don't accept it as gospel.

But if you are already into more advanced pieces, why would you need the teacher to do that? If you don't practice working on fingerings from the earlier stages, how would you learn to know your hands and what works and what doesn't? I've always thougth that working for to find good fingerings is an essential part of learning technique. It can sometimes feel overwhelming at first but when you get into it, it's really rewarding.

[steve_uk]

But if you are already into more advanced pieces, why would you need the teacher to do that? If you don't practice working on fingerings from the earlier stages, how would you learn to know your hands and what works and what doesn't? I've always thougth that working for to find good fingerings is an essential part of learning technique. It can sometimes feel overwhelming at first but when you get into it, it's really rewarding.

I use it as a guide I suppose. I can copy better than I can create.

[chicoscalco]

I use it as a guide I suppose. I can copy better than I can create.

Nobody is born knowing how to "create" fingering. That's exactly why we learn it, as should you.

[steve_uk]

Nobody is born knowing how to "create" fingering. That's exactly why we learn it, as should you.

I was referring to musicianship,not fingers. I have just read someone request advice on another thread on exactly the same subject and heaven help him was the first thought to cross my mind. On my brief time on this site I must confess to feeling either you're all a bunch of arrogant snobs or in your desire to help you really have no idea how you come across to the average aspiring musician..

[outin]

On my brief time on this site I must confess to feeling either you're all a bunch of arrogant snobs or in your desire to help you really have no idea how you come across to the average aspiring musician..

I'm sorry it feels like that to you. I do not have any grounds for being arrogant, you probably play a lot better than me

My intention was just to suggest another viewpoint for you to assess your situation with your teacher and your learning process. Often a piece of advice does not sound that good at first, but when tried the results may be surprising. Sometimes it turns out that the advice wasn't that useful after all. Difficult to know until one tries.

Not just in piano, but in everything, I feel the most important job for a teacher is to make himself unnecessary, which means to teach the skills required for independent learning.

[brogers70]

Steve, If you are frustrated with your progress then either you are not working hard enough (which does not sound likely) or your teacher is not teaching you technique properly. If the teacher is not working out, then find another. Or just get a second opinion. Ask for a single lesson with someone who you've heard is good and ask for an evaluation of your technique and your approach to practicing. My only amateur bit of wisdom about technique is that 95% of technique is about making a beautiful sound. Once you've got the right motions to make a beautiful sound, playing a lot of notes, or playing fast comes fairly easily.

[chicoscalco]

Steve, If you are frustrated with your progress then either you are not working hard enough (which does not sound likely) or your teacher is not teaching you technique properly. If the teacher is not working out, then find another. Or just get a second opinion. Ask for a single lesson with someone who you've heard is good and ask for an evaluation of your technique and your approach to practicing. My only amateur bit of wisdom about technique is that 95% of technique is about making a beautiful sound. Once you've got the right motions to make a beautiful sound, playing a lot of notes, or playing fast comes fairly easily.

+1

[steve_uk]

Steve, If you are frustrated with your progress then either you are not working hard enough (which does not sound likely) or your teacher is not teaching you technique properly. If the teacher is not working out, then find another. Or just get a second opinion. Ask for a single lesson with someone who you've heard is good and ask for an evaluation of your technique and your approach to practicing. My only amateur bit of wisdom about technique is that 95% of technique is about making a beautiful sound. Once you've got the right motions to make a beautiful sound, playing a lot of notes, or playing fast comes fairly easily.

On the subject of teachers I did engage someone who had studied under another professional pianist(I do know the names but for the sake of propriety they shall both remain anonymous):the professional pianist charges £200 per hour and the man I engaged not much more than a tenth  of that thank goodness. Now am I actually receiving stewardship from someone who is worth ten times the amount I am  handing over(if you're still following..)? Anyway he no longer does teach me as we fell out over the holding of a crotchet.. But I do have a good teacher now and I don't know where the hour goes I am so absorbed,which is as it should be.