Hanon

[kerry]

I think this topic may have come up before.   I have never used Hanon to teach children or ever been given Hanon by my  teachers. I have had good results in exams and taught for 25 years.  One of my friends uses Hanon and is shocked that I dont.  Help please.

[janice]

I'm not quite sure what your question is.  But use the search feature here, and type in Hanon.  You will be surprised at the very strong emotions shown at this forum, just at the mere mention of his name!!!

[Brian Healey]

Yes, many have the opinion that Hanon is outdated (and I agree), however, certain excercises, when done in a correct manner are still pretty useful. If you search through the previous posts in this subject, I think there's a reply by Bernhard where he breaks the whole thing down quite nicely.

[Spatula]

I must admit where there are certain exercises that are pratical.  Let me get my book.

Exercise 39 (The 12 Major and Minor Scales, which really isn't Hanon's invention)
Exercise 40 (Chromatic Scales-again not Hanon's idea)
Exercise 41 (Arpeggios-dito)
Exercise 42 (Arpeggios in diminished 7th chord-dito dito)
Exercise 44 (Repeated notes)
Exercise 45 (Repeated notes in groups of 2)
Exercise 46 (The Thrill of the trill)
Exercise 50 (Legato Thirds)
Exercise 51/53 (Scales in Octaves)
Exercise 52 (Scales in Thirds)
Exercise 54 (Four notes trill in thirds)
Exercise 55 (Three note trill)
Exercise 56 (Scales in broken octaves)
Exercise 57 (Broken Arpeggios in octaves)
Exercise 58 (Sustained Octaves with Detached notes-similar to Dohnanyi Exercises)
Exercise 59 (Four note trill in sixths)
Exercise 60 (The tremlolololololololol – laughing out loud at its difficulty)

[bernhard]

I think this topic may have come up before.   I have never used Hanon to teach children or ever been given Hanon by my  teachers. I have had good results in exams and taught for 25 years.  One of my friends uses Hanon and is shocked that I dont.  Help please.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5350.0.html

I believe you should be the shocked one. Actually, next time you meet your friend say to him/her in no uncertain terms: “I am deeply shocked and revolted that you use Hanon!”

Then give her a piece of my mind:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas - why scales are useless as exercises and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner  – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(it is not possible to learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time you cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775
(Hanon: pros and cons – Robert Henry’s opinion – Bernhard’s opinion)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(Technique – definition of technique – technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definition of technique: quote form Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4887.msg47334.html#msg47334
(more on Hanon)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy  – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

Don’t bother with Hanon (specially since you never did – and with good results). Specially do not give in to bad peer influence/pressure!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I hate Hannon....

But then again, I like it......

No! I hate it!

Well... I kind of like it.....

Shut up! I hate it!

Well........

*Kills myself*


Ludwig Van Rachabji

[Sketchee]

I think Hanon can be useful for a teacher to clearly see and gauge aspects of the students technique.  As a student practicing it on your own for any long period of time isn't all that useful.  For example, a teacher could see whether your playing is uneven and uncontrolled in general or if you're just having trouble with a piece.  If that was the problem, still playing Hanon isn't going to fix it but after the "diagnosis" the teacher can help you to cure the difficulty. Still, that could be done with just scales or excercising taking the difficult portion of the piece and turning it into an excercise, but that's the devil's advocate pov.

[BoliverAllmon]

I think this topic may have come up before.   I have never used Hanon to teach children or ever been given Hanon by my  teachers. I have had good results in exams and taught for 25 years.  One of my friends uses Hanon and is shocked that I dont.  Help please.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5350.0.html

I believe you should be the shocked one. Actually, next time you meet your friend say to him/her in no uncertain terms: “I am deeply shocked and revolted that you use Hanon!”

Then give her a piece of my mind:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas - why scales are useless as exercises and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner  – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(it is not possible to learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time you cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775
(Hanon: pros and cons – Robert Henry’s opinion – Bernhard’s opinion)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(Technique – definition of technique – technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definition of technique: quote form Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4887.msg47334.html#msg47334
(more on Hanon)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy  – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

Don’t bother with Hanon (specially since you never did – and with good results). Specially do not give in to bad peer influence/pressure!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

true don't give in to bad peer influence. HHHMMM..... so what was all that crap that was just posted?

boliver

[xvimbi]

true don't give in to bad peer influence. HHHMMM..... so what was all that crap that was just posted?

boliver

Oh, but that was GOOD peer pressure/influence. There is nothing wrong with good pressure 

[BoliverAllmon]

one cannot determine what is good or bad unless tested and sees the evidence of both sides. So you cannot say whatever you want and say that anything else is bad influence. The person must make his own decision. Influence is bad period. One should make an informed decision free from partisanship.

boliver

[m]

I think this topic may have come up before.   I have never used Hanon to teach children or ever been given Hanon by my  teachers. I have had good results in exams and taught for 25 years.  One of my friends uses Hanon and is shocked that I dont.  Help please.

Although I never give Hanon to my students, I was raised and trained with it. IMO, the most important is not "what", but "how". I had to play them in all keys, in moderate tempo on mezzo forte. The special emphasis was on perfect legato, shape of phrase, absolute eveness and sound control.
When my hands grew, I had to play it with octaves as well--in all keys, with special emphasis on perfect legato (!), shape of phrase, absolute eveness and sound control...
Looking back I can say it actually was quite fascinating and I can see how much I gained playing it.

BTW, I still remember that I had to play Bach 2 part Inventions, Czerny, and later Chopin 1st and 24th etudes in all keys. Not sure if I could do it now, though.

[Piazzo22]

I think this topic may have come up before.   I have never used Hanon to teach children or ever been given Hanon by my  teachers. I have had good results in exams and taught for 25 years.  One of my friends uses Hanon and is shocked that I dont.  Help please.

Although I never give Hanon to my students, I was raised and trained with it. IMO, the most important is not "what", but "how". I had to play them in all keys, in moderate tempo on mezzo forte. The special emphasis was on perfect legato, shape of phrase, absolute eveness and sound control.
When my hands grew, I had to play it with octaves as well--in all keys, with special emphasis on perfect legato (!), shape of phrase, absolute eveness and sound control...
Looking back I can say it actually was quite fascinating and I can see how much I gained playing it.

BTW, I still remember that I had to play Bach 2 part Inventions, Czerny, and later Chopin 1st and 24th etudes in all keys. Not sure if I could do it now, though.

Marik, was that in the Moscow Conservatory? Di they tell you something about hands separate practice in technical studies like hanon, or they told you to practice them hands together all the time.
Could you tell us something about the Moscow Conservatory teachings.

[Glissando]

Bernhard,
Thanks for all the info. I don't really know who Hanon is, but judging from what I've just read that's a good thing.
My teacher is making me play some of Czerny's Etudes, I'm playing no. 34 right now- I have to say that it has helped me with my left hand a lot- my left hand is more limber now.
I don't exactly hate Czerny, (although I mentally call him Cheesy) but those etudes aren't close to being beautiful music! Kind of sounds like a soundtrack for an action movie...hmmm.
I liked reading about the history behind Czerny's writing them, thanks!

[m]

I think this topic may have come up before.   I have never used Hanon to teach children or ever been given Hanon by my  teachers. I have had good results in exams and taught for 25 years.  One of my friends uses Hanon and is shocked that I dont.  Help please.

Although I never give Hanon to my students, I was raised and trained with it. IMO, the most important is not "what", but "how". I had to play them in all keys, in moderate tempo on mezzo forte. The special emphasis was on perfect legato, shape of phrase, absolute eveness and sound control.
When my hands grew, I had to play it with octaves as well--in all keys, with special emphasis on perfect legato (!), shape of phrase, absolute eveness and sound control...
Looking back I can say it actually was quite fascinating and I can see how much I gained playing it.

BTW, I still remember that I had to play Bach 2 part Inventions, Czerny, and later Chopin 1st and 24th etudes in all keys. Not sure if I could do it now, though.

Marik, was that in the Moscow Conservatory? Di they tell you something about hands separate practice in technical studies like hanon, or they told you to practice them hands together all the time.
Could you tell us something about the Moscow Conservatory teachings.

No 
That was many years before. In Moscow Concervatory they didn't teach HOW to play piano. Everybody had already PLAYED piano and was accomplished pianist--if you are not, then you are not accepted into Moscow Concervatory. If you come to a lesson and piece does not come out technically, professor would look at you with certain look and tell that it would be a good idea to practice, close the music, and your lesson is over. Usually, lessons were open and in front of whole class, so always there were many people and competition was very high. People practiced a lot--it was embarassing to play unprepared in front of many people and your peers. Of course, to play with a score was a nonsense and completely out of question. If professor tells you: "OK dear. Why wouldn't we play Liszt Sonata B minor?" Which means next week you have to bring Liszt Sonata B minor not only from memory, but you should play it as an completely accomplished piece. And you go home, cursing everything, including your life and day you started playing piano, forget about everything in life, and practice 8-12-15 hours a day, and next week.......... you play  Liszt Sonata B minor in front of all your peers.

Ha......

It may be very well the case that after you play it, professor would tell you: "You know dear, on a second thought this Sonata doesn't really fit your program. Why wouldn't we try Frank Prelude Choral and Fugue?"
 

[Piazzo22]

Oh, I see! 
Then, could you explain how you approached memorizing? I have many problems with that, and would like to know what the method is in an experienced student.
Thanks Marik!

I don´t make this a PM because much people would be interested in that subject i guess.

[m]

Oh, I see! 
Then, could you explain how you approached memorizing? I have many problems with that, and would like to know what the method is in an experienced student.
Thanks Marik!

I don´t make this a PM because much people would be interested in that subject i guess.

When you memorize you engage different kinds of memories. To be honest, I am not good at memorizing either. For me it is a hard menthal work. The hardest thing, especially with beautiful pieces, is not to get carried away and start performing, but have a discipline and actually work on it, otherwise it can take many days untill I know them well.

Usually, my drill is: first day I sight-read the piece through in tempo without stops "fluffing though"-- just to get general idea. Then play it once again, but slower, with stops at difficult places, trying to analize them, realize fingering, etc. Then I play it once again slowly from the beginning to the end and put away.
Second day I play it through in tempo, then start memorizing right away. I take a small section and glance at that, trying to catch all details, then play it a few times, without looking at the score. Of course, I have to look at the score a few times untill I feel comfortable. Then I go to the next section. After that I connect those two, and play untill, once again, I feel comfortable. Then goes third section, and so on. Before I know first page, I never go to the next one.
Next day, of course, I don't remember anything, so I play ones what I just have learnt with score and then start the same drill from where I stopped yerstaday. After I got to the last measure, I put away untill next day. Then I start again from the beginning exactly the same way, but for now it goes much faster. Usually, it takes me three times of going through the piece, untill I know it well--about five-six days for long and complicated works. The longest I remember was Rachmaninov 3rd Concerto, when I spent 2 weeks for memorizing second and third movements, working 9 hours a day.
For Samuil Feinberg Sonata No.6 I spent about 10 days for memorizing--very difficult music.

Yeah, I had a friend, who memorized Pictures from Exibition in 5 hours!
One of my professors memorized Beethoven Op. 101 in 3 hours. Once, right before his recital, he came to a green room to warm up, and found on the piano stand a score of Villa Lobos Polichinelle (spelling?). He sight-read it twice and then.... played as an encore--of course, it was perfect

[Piazzo22]

Thank you so much Marik!!!
So, basically is like playing by ear, not much analizing right? And always hands together?

[m]

Thank you so much Marik!!!
So, basically is like playing by ear, not much analizing right? And always hands together?

I don't think you can call it "by ear". What I meant is that memorizing for me is a very active process of remembering, and is actually based on analizing of everything--dynamics, shape of phrase, all directions of the melody, right balance between melody and accompaniment, etc. I do all these things right away.
Yes, when I memorize I do hands together, unless something is very complicated, but always work separately later on. I find it very helpful, besides... that's how I was trained when I was a kid.

[tph]

That was many years before. In Moscow Concervatory they didn't teach HOW to play piano. Everybody had already PLAYED piano and was accomplished pianist--if you are not, then you are not accepted into Moscow Concervatory. If you come to a lesson and piece does not come out technically, professor would look at you with certain look and tell that it would be a good idea to practice, close the music, and your lesson is over.

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

[BoliverAllmon]

I agree. Russian training is very interesting.

[julie391]

not least because of the sheer plenitude of outstanding russian virtuosi im sure

[kerry]

Thank you everyone.  I feel reassured  about not using Hanon. I always felt it was so boring.

[BoliverAllmon]

boredom is not a reason for not doing something. Driving for 10 hrs. straight is boring, but if I do that I can get rewarded by seeing the beautiful Grand Canyon, or go skiing in Colordado.

boliver

[julie391]

boredom is not a reason for not doing something. Driving for 10 hrs. straight is boring, but if I do that I can get rewarded by seeing the beautiful Grand Canyon, or go skiing in Colordado.

boliver

you make a fair point, but are you defending hanon?!?! 

[BoliverAllmon]

I personally can vouch for Hanon yes. am i going to cram it down your throat. No. I just want you to make a decision based on something besides boredom.

boliver

[julie391]

I personally can vouch for Hanon yes. am i going to cram it down your throat. No. I just want you to make a decision based on something besides boredom.

boliver

ive had a few bogus things crammed down my throat in my time(men seem to insist), but hanon i just cant stomach.

i dont need to prove it any further, i think bernhard's posts in particular outline the message i believe in.

[m]

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

Sorry, I missed this thread.

I began study with my father (he is a piano professor at colledge) from the very beginning up untill after colledge. To be honest, I don't remember working on mechanics. I also, don't remember working specially on technique. Of course I had to play Hanon, excersises, all Czerny, all scales (included in thirds and octaves) and arpeggios, etc., but it was treated as "menthal" excersises. Technical problems were treated as musical ones, all even fastests passages were considered as a fast melody, so everything had to be analized in term of phrasing, dynamics, and sound. The main idea was a musical image, and then realizing how it is to be expressed. The first and foremost demand was very careful and critical listening to yourself--how this image is realized on piano. My father was a very big fan of opera and singing, and the whole concept of technique was in perfect legato, meaning not a physical process of connecting of some discrete notes, but putting notes into a phrase, and finding their internal, musical connection--in this sense staccato on a higher level is also legato.  I still remember that we could work on a two measure phrase for four (!) hours. Of course, theory lessons were unseparable part of my the education.

Many times I met very sceptical opinions about this approach, and particularly to the whole concept of technique approach. But the fact is that in 4th grade a already played Chopin etude op.25no.12 and Scherzo no.1, in 5th grade Liszt 6th Rhapsody, and in 6th Schumann Toccata, and Mozart-Liszt Fantasie on Marriage of Figaro.

That's the way I teach my students.

[BoliverAllmon]

I personally can vouch for Hanon yes. am i going to cram it down your throat. No. I just want you to make a decision based on something besides boredom.

boliver

ive had a few bogus things crammed down my throat in my time(men seem to insist), but hanon i just cant stomach.

i dont need to prove it any further, i think bernhard's posts in particular outline the message i believe in.

that is fine then.

[BoliverAllmon]

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

Sorry, I missed this thread.

I began study with my father (he is a piano professor at colledge) from the very beginning up untill after colledge. To be honest, I don't remember working on mechanics. I also, don't remember working specially on technique. Of course I had to play Hanon, excersises, all Czerny, all scales (included in thirds and octaves) and arpeggios, etc., but it was treated as "menthal" excersises. Technical problems were treated as musical ones, all even fastests passages were considered as a fast melody, so everything had to be analized in term of phrasing, dynamics, and sound. The main idea was a musical image, and then realizing how it is to be expressed. The first and foremost demand was very careful and critical listening to yourself--how this image is realized on piano. My father was a very big fan of opera and singing, and the whole concept of technique was in perfect legato, meaning not a physical process of connecting of some discrete notes, but putting notes into a phrase, and finding their internal, musical connection--in this sense staccato on a higher level is also legato.  I still remember that we could work on a two measure phrase for four (!) hours. Of course, theory lessons were unseparable part of my the education.

Many times I met very sceptical opinions about this approach, and particularly to the whole concept of technique approach. But the fact is that in 4th grade a already played Chopin etude op.25no.12 and Scherzo no.1, in 5th grade Liszt 6th Rhapsody, and in 6th Schumann Toccata, and Mozart-Liszt Fantasie on Marriage of Figaro.

That's the way I teach my students.

dang that is awesome.

[jazzyprof]

ive had a few bogus things crammed down my throat in my time(men seem to insist)

I'm not even going to touch that one with a ten foot pole.

[julie391]

lol, a tad too long for my tastest...but i diverge-

i find the russian method fascinating - as they seem to be the most consistent country for creating great pianists, BUT - i think this has alot to do with population too - and the sheer amount of piansist that take up the piano

it seems now - china is the new russia

i would like to know about the chinese piano learning methods

[Daniel_piano]

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

<snip>
 My father was a very big fan of opera and singing, and the whole concept of technique was in perfect legato, meaning not a physical process of connecting of some discrete notes, but putting notes into a phrase, and finding their internal, musical connection--in this sense staccato on a higher level is also legato.  I still remember that we could work on a two measure phrase for four (!) hours.
<snip>

dang that is awesome.

Still I don't see the utility of working on two measured for four hours
In fact it seems counterproductive to me as brain learn in little period of concentration alternated often by period of rest and can only assimilate a limited amount of information on a single subject
Better to work not long and often on a lot of different thing everyday, waiting the next day for them to be learned by the unconscious

[BoliverAllmon]

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

<snip>
 My father was a very big fan of opera and singing, and the whole concept of technique was in perfect legato, meaning not a physical process of connecting of some discrete notes, but putting notes into a phrase, and finding their internal, musical connection--in this sense staccato on a higher level is also legato.  I still remember that we could work on a two measure phrase for four (!) hours.
<snip>

dang that is awesome.

Still I don't see the utility of working on two measured for four hours
In fact it seems counterproductive to me as brain learn in little period of concentration alternated often by period of rest and can only assimilate a limited amount of information on a single subject
Better to work not long and often on a lot of different thing everyday, waiting the next day for them to be learned by the unconscious

the brain can do alot more than you think it can.

[Daniel_piano]

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

<snip>
 My father was a very big fan of opera and singing, and the whole concept of technique was in perfect legato, meaning not a physical process of connecting of some discrete notes, but putting notes into a phrase, and finding their internal, musical connection--in this sense staccato on a higher level is also legato.  I still remember that we could work on a two measure phrase for four (!) hours.
<snip>

dang that is awesome.

Still I don't see the utility of working on two measured for four hours
In fact it seems counterproductive to me as brain learn in little period of concentration alternated often by period of rest and can only assimilate a limited amount of information on a single subject
Better to work not long and often on a lot of different thing everyday, waiting the next day for them to be learned by the unconscious

the brain can do alot more than you think it can.

Brain is still an organ that obeys to strict physiological rules
Like stomach, lungs or heart there effettive ways of use it, less effective eay of use it and uneffective way of use it (not mention dangerous way)
The brain can't gather more information from something after an hour
Try to observ a complex image and write dows all the details you see, after an hous you won't be able to find any other detail in the image despite observing it for other
The next day your brain will start gathering more new information and details despite the fact that the previous day there seemed to be nothing new to find
The areas of memory immagazination remain active for just an hous given a visive, olfattive or tactile stimulus, after that neuropeotides are not longer secreted in there is not a new stimulus of different nature
The brain can do a lot of thing except working outside of its physiological guidelines
Four hours work on the same thing is a waste of time, no matter what

Daniel

[xvimbi]

The brain can do a lot of thing except working outside of its physiological guidelines
Four hours work on the same thing is a waste of time, no matter what

I don't recall Marik saying they would work for four hours straight on two measures, whether they took breaks or not, etc. I guess they found a lot to work on in these two measures. Don't get all wound up. 

[jazzyprof]

Four hours work on the same thing is a waste of time, no matter what

Daniel

For you, maybe.  For others, it is possible to get into a state of flow such that four hours seems like four minutes.

[Daniel_piano]

Four hours work on the same thing is a waste of time, no matter what

Daniel

For you, maybe.  For others, it is possible to get into a state of flow such that four hours seems like four minutes.

I'm not seeing that you can't spen four hours doing something or that they can't pass quickly
The point is that passing one hour or passing three hours "on the same thing" with repeting observation of it doesn't any difference as the brain can gather "new" information from a same source after 1 hour no matter how concentrated you're since it's not something you can control but dependent on hormonal secretion

Often three hours seem few minutes to me too but when I realize I've passed three hours on the same phrase I realize I've wasted my time as my brain stopped learning from that phrase two hours ago

Daniel

[m]

Would you mind describing in detail how your teachers taught you to play piano before you went Moscow - especially in developing technique or mechanics?  Where did you study prior to Moscow?

Thanks a lot - I find the Russian training particularly fascinating!

tph

<snip>
 My father was a very big fan of opera and singing, and the whole concept of technique was in perfect legato, meaning not a physical process of connecting of some discrete notes, but putting notes into a phrase, and finding their internal, musical connection--in this sense staccato on a higher level is also legato.  I still remember that we could work on a two measure phrase for four (!) hours.
<snip>

dang that is awesome.

Still I don't see the utility of working on two measured for four hours
In fact it seems counterproductive to me as brain learn in little period of concentration alternated often by period of rest and can only assimilate a limited amount of information on a single subject
Better to work not long and often on a lot of different thing everyday, waiting the next day for them to be learned by the unconscious

True, and... not true
Let me outline a few points here:
1) The strive for perfection keeps your brain and ideas fresh, and usually is stronger than physical aspects of concentration.
2) Anything and everything in human body can be and should be trained. Ability to concentrate on ideas (i.e. stamina) is one of the most important points for a pianist--how you suppose to play 2 hour recital without it? Becides, isn't meditation is the same? I guess to concentrate on candle flame for two hours is much less fun than to play piano.
4) Music has a lot of angles. Even in one little phrase there are many goals to achieve--every goal is new and thus the brain perceives it as a new.
5) I like to finish what I have started and never leave for tomorrow what has to be done today. Tomorrow we will have different goals.
6) Of course, it was not every day, or every lesson like that. Usually it was with new concepts. Once you learn the concept, next time, when you meet the same in other pieces, you won't spend time working on it, but just apply the concept. In my opinion, it is waste of time, spreading it over days or weeks, when it can and should be done today.

And yes, we had 5 minute breaks every hour.

S. Richter once said a wonderful phrase: "One should practice so, as if tomorrow you have the most important performance of your life."

[m]

Often three hours seem few minutes to me too but when I realize I've passed three hours on the same phrase I realize I've wasted my time as my brain stopped learning from that phrase two hours ago

Daniel

Hey Daniel,

When you deal with my father, you just don't dare to stop your brain learning. Trust me on that! Been there, done that 

[galonia]

When you deal with my father, you just don't dare to stop your brain learning. Trust me on that! Been there, done that

OK, this sounds so much like my teacher that it's scary - I once spent an entire one-hour lesson getting one note right, because the tone was never correct, and my teacher kept making me drop my finger into the key in the right manner, with relaxed arm, and strong finger - it was so hard!  But my teacher believes that if the tone of the first note is not correct, then the rest of the piece cannot possibly be good.

After that lesson, I never had trouble with preparing my fingers and my arms to play the first note of any piece - I understood how to prepare, how to co-ordinate both hands, how to imagine the sound before I play it, and how to listen for the correct tone.  There were so many things being learnt in that one hour, that there was no chance my concentration would wane, even if I didn't play many notes in that one hour.