Chopin Etude op.10 no. 4 measures 31-32

[shortfingers]

I am having difficulty with measures 31 and 32 in Chopin Etude op. 10 no. 4. It is like my fingers just cannot remember the pattern of finger 2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1 RH and 2-1-3-2-3-1 LH ... or they just get really dizzy or something and it is a mess. Anyone have any tips for how to get this fast AND solid? It is so sloppy for me ... No matter how much I practice it, it seems I cannot get it to flow naturally and accurately.

[awesom_o]

It takes about ten years to get this part really good. In the mean time, it can either be fast or it can be solid, but not really both.

If you listen really carefully to this spot in the performances of many famous pianists, you'll notice usually if it's solid, it's not that fast. And if it's really fast, it's not that solid.

How old are you, and how long have you been working on this piece?

[onwan]

I can't play this etude but my Paderewski version has different fingering which seems to be more logical: RH 2313 2313 nad LH 2131 2131
Hope it'll help.

[shortfingers]

I can't play this etude but my Paderewski version has different fingering which seems to be more logical: RH 2313 2313 nad LH 2131 2131
Hope it'll help.

Onwan, thank you for this comment. I wish I were using the Paderewski edition - my teacher told me to look at that edition for the pedaling on the last bar but I don't have a copy. On the last bar, does it say that the pedal should be cleared at the first beat of measure 81, so it's not muddied with all the arpeggio work?

awesom_o - Thank you for your comment! It is encouraging to know that it's not just me that can't play this section fast and solid after 7 months (I wasn't taking lessons when learning it either) ... I will not try to force the tempo there but will work on solidity. The bad thing is I need to record it this week for part of an audition ... oh well, I will do my best with it! 

[onwan]

Onwan, thank you for this comment. I wish I were using the Paderewski edition - my teacher told me to look at that edition for the pedaling on the last bar but I don't have a copy. On the last bar, does it say that the pedal should be cleared at the first beat of measure 81, so it's not muddied with all the arpeggio work?

Paderewski wrote to hold the pedal from bar 79 till the end.

I've made a copy of the sheets for you but the pages are from the end to the beginning.

[shortfingers]

Paderewski wrote to hold the pedal from bar 79 till the end.

I've made a copy of the sheets for you but the pages are from the end to the beginning.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! 

[awesom_o]

I must also admit that I use a proprietary hand redistribution here that makes it slightly easier 

But I'll tell you what it is after you've made the recording. I wouldn't want you to be tempted to change anything that major at such a late stage in the game.

[chopin2015]

in the left hand, I don't even get the fingerings in my book. when you do the octave B, stay there, and then use 1 and 2 on g and f# and 5 back on b. from that b, you go to the c natural. Observe where the last beat in that measure, left hand, same pattern occurs. From that now A on last 16th note, it goes to the b. .

in the right hand, the pattern does not start on that first beat of the measure. it starts on the second beat, where the left hand does the 16th notes. in right hand, the melody in 16th notes is irrelevant. follow the bottom note. you start on b. then go up to e(remember that and the notes that are above it). then. from the e, you go below the note the pattern started on, below the b is the a in the right hand, and the 16th notes that accompany the bottom note are also descending, below the 16th notes of where that pattern starting with the b started. after that, you go up just below the e and it's 16th notes, then back down, but below the a, then back up but below the d and it's 16th notes. etc

and the part after that, with the diminished patterns.

Trick to tricky music is knowing where you are and what you are playing, and what to play next.
learn technical music in this manner.

[ahinton]

First, memorise the passage concerned. Then memorise it again in case you'ver not memorised it correctly first time around(!) By "memorising" it I mean taking it to the point where you can write it down away from the piano and the score with 100% accuracy and also sing each part separately. You'll be surprised just how much this step will help with its preparation at the piano.

Then experiment with different fingerings but do it methodically and with due concentration so that the object of that exercise - namely discovering what works best for you - stands a better chance of realisation; to this end, for example, you might like to try 3-2-4-3 for each m.s. pattern (although I'm not necessarily suggesting that this will be your solution).

You could also try practising the passage with your eyes closed (but only afer you've memorised its every note).

Best,

Alistair

[shabbatshalom]

My two cents on this passage: First of all, the 5th finger should release the top voice immediately after playing (use the pedal/your ear to create legato). Second, use a slight downward wrist emphasis on each beat while practicing slowly (this enables the hands to stay together more easily). Lastly, practice by playing each note while making contact with the next note (never holding notes that have passed).

One last tip, start light in touch and only increase speed, not dynamics. After you can play fast and light, only then start attempting to increase sound. Hope this helps.

[j_menz]

use ... your ear to create legato

Dunno. Looks kinda uncomfortable.

[shortfingers]

I must also admit that I use a proprietary hand redistribution here that makes it slightly easier 

But I'll tell you what it is after you've made the recording. I wouldn't want you to be tempted to change anything that major at such a late stage in the game.

awesom_o - I have recorded! Let me know your hand redistribution 

Thank you everyone for all of your thoughts! I have read them all and gotten new ideas. It is great to have all these insights

[shortfingers]

Dunno. Looks kinda uncomfortable.

LOL 

[awesom_o]

Okay.

First, I played it exactly as written in the Paderewski edition for 4-5 years.

I was never 100% happy with the way I could make it sound, though. So I began experimenting with different possibilities.

Eventually, I settled on what I now think is the best possible way.

From the second beat of measure 25, I take all of the RH alto voice with the LH. All the way up to measure 31.

So in measures 30-31, my LH is actually playing  the middle voice.

32 and 33 are difficult, but with enough practice  it will come. The fingering in the RH is tricky, for those descending fourths!

The hand redistribution makes the whole middle section quite a bit better.

Share your recording! I would love to hear it!

[shortfingers]

Okay.

First, I played it exactly as written in the Paderewski edition for 4-5 years.

I was never 100% happy with the way I could make it sound, though. So I began experimenting with different possibilities.

Eventually, I settled on what I now think is the best possible way.

From the second beat of measure 25, I take all of the RH alto voice with the LH. All the way up to measure 31.

So in measures 30-31, my LH is actually playing  the middle voice.

32 and 33 are difficult, but with enough practice  it will come. The fingering in the RH is tricky, for those descending fourths!

The hand redistribution makes the whole middle section quite a bit better.

Share your recording! I would love to hear it!

That is quite creative! It seems only a fairly large hand could accomplish this, though. Wish I had some larger hands! 

[shortfingers]

Share your recording! I would love to hear it!

p.s. Thank you! Normally I would love to share my recording, but in this case I am embarassed to have an unpolished piece sent in on an application, and don't think it is worth much to listen to. It was the best I could do at that point though, oh well!

[awesom_o]

That is quite creative! It seems only a fairly large hand could accomplish this, though. Wish I had some larger hands! 

I don't have large hands, they're just quite flexible!

I'm sure your recording is well worth a listen! Chopin Etudes are notoriously resistant to polishing!

Most of the well-known brands of polish don't even do the trick.