Arturo Michelangeli

[nick]

I have recently revisited my piano technique, and I like Arturo's quiet style, economy of motion approach. It is a total relearning for me to have the finger's pretty much on the keys before depression with non playing fingers relaxed on the keys when possible. There was something about my technique that I did not like, and I think it was the unnecessary tension on fast passages.
  Does anyone know of info about Arturo's teaching method as far as technique goes, materials I could access? I did a search and have not found anything. The way he looks while playing reminds me of a similar technique from the former pianist Walter Gieseking. Thanks in advance!
 
Nick

[birba]

Ah, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli.  My idol for so many years.  The reason I came to Italy 45 years ago.  He studied with Anfossi, a teacher from the Neopolitan school.  I think this Anfossi wrote some excercises for the piano.  But, of course, it's not the excercise that counts but the way they are executed.  And if you don't have the teacher who knows that method, they're useless.  It's a quick sort of touch - like a twitch, in a way.  He didn't teach technique, though.  I know several pianists who studied with him and there was never one word about technique.

[nick]

Interesting since he spent so much of his time on technique! thanks for that. There is one book "Michelengeli as I knew him" https://www.amazon.com/Benedetti-Michelangeli-Musica-Interdisziplinare-Studien/dp/3631611676/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1387318742&sr=1-1&keywords=arturo+michelangeli

but pricey!

Maurice

[steinway43]

I heard some stories about him while at university many years ago. I don't know if they're true but I will share what I remember. A man who had studied at Juilliard was the source.

Supposedly he would have students live in his house while they studied with him, and he would come to them randomly for lessons, sometimes in the middle of the night. (I have my doubts about that but this is what I was told). And in one session he kept his back to the student while they played. He faced the wall and never spoke, all to make a point about the importance of the silences. It seems this may have been one of the lessons Martha Argerich had with him.

[nick]

Sounds pretty rude, just cause he couldn't sleep to annoy the tenant/student in the night.
I sure would have hated to have paid money for a lesson and not a word spoken. Maybe this was his way of letting that student go passive aggressively.

Nick

[outin]

Sounds pretty rude, just cause he couldn't sleep to annoy the tenant/student in the night.
I sure would have hated to have paid money for a lesson and not a word spoken. Maybe this was his way of letting that student go passive aggressively.

I think I'd be willing to pay quite a lot and suffer a lot of rudeness if that helped me to play like Pollini for example, who studied with him 

[green]

He didnt charge anything to study with him. But he also drove a ferrari so that wasn't much of an issue anyways.

One of my teachers did a masterclass with him, supposedly Michaelangeli did a practice called 'silent practice', I have gone into detail about this elsewhere, it is similar to the finger tapping which Glenn Gould did.

[awesom_o]

 supposedly Michaelangeli did a practice called 'silent practice', I have gone into detail about this elsewhere, it is similar to the finger tapping which Glenn Gould did.

Gould and Michelangeli's techniques were quite similar. Both had extremely well-developed hands, which gave them a touch that was both scintillatingly smoothe and strong at the same time!

[awesom_o]

I think I'd be willing to pay quite a lot and suffer a lot of rudeness if that helped me to play like Pollini for example, who studied with him 

I can help you play like Pollini. When I posted my recording of op. 10/1 here, somebody actually accused me of stealing Pollini's recording of it a la Joyce Hatto!

[awesom_o]

He didnt charge anything to study with him. But he also drove a ferrari so that wasn't much of an issue anyways.
 

Liszt also taught for free.... but he too could afford to do so, being as loaded as he was from his concert career

[mjames]

I can help you play like Pollini. When I posted my recording of op. 10/1 here, somebody actually accused me of stealing Pollini's recording of it a la Joyce Hatto!

screw outin

help me

[awesom_o]

I'd love to! Have you posted any videos or recordings yet?

[mjames]

Nope not yet
I do have a few things I "finished" that I could post online, and I use an electronic piano not an acoustic one.

[awesom_o]

Unfortunately they don't work the same way, digitals and acoustics 

Do you not have access to a real piano anywhere?

[outin]

I can help you play like Pollini. When I posted my recording of op. 10/1 here, somebody actually accused me of stealing Pollini's recording of it a la Joyce Hatto!

I remember... yours was really good

But I'm afraid your method is just too demanding for me...I still cannot throw the damn balls...or catch them

[awesom_o]

Music is a highly demanding line of work, I'm afraid! 

I think it's really healthy though for both the body and the spirit...

[mjames]

There's this place in my country called "Escola de Musica nacional" and it has several pianos. Most of them are in really bad condition except for two pleyel pianos. I go there once in awhile (i love that pleyel) so I know that acoustics and electronic are reallllly different. I usually work on memorizing and phrasing at home and when I get into the polishing stage I go there to try my new stuff on the real pianos. So I have a slight understanding of how important things like touch, pedaling etc are on a real piano.

[outin]

Music is a highly demanding line of work, I'm afraid! 

I think it's really healthy though for both the body and the spirit...

I do agree, but that juggling thing just isn't for me  

But I have started playing a lot of scales recently, suddenly something clicked and I find them quite enjoyable to practice.

[awesom_o]

But I have started playing a lot of scales recently, suddenly something clicked and I find them quite enjoyable to practice.

Fantastic!

Make sure you practice them all in formula pattern, and separated by a 3rd and a 6th!

Formula pattern, in case you don't know, means two octaves up, two octaves out (contrary motion), two octaves in, two octaves up, two octaves down, two octaves out, two octaves in, and two octaves down.

[awesom_o]

There's this place in my country called "Escola de Musica nacional" and it has several pianos. Most of them are in really bad condition except for two pleyel pianos. I go there once in awhile (i love that pleyel) so I know that acoustics and electronic are reallllly different. I usually work on memorizing and phrasing at home and when I get into the polishing stage I go there to try my new stuff on the real pianos. So I have a slight understanding of how important things like touch, pedaling etc are on a real piano.

Sounds like you're making the best of your situation!

I don't believe I've ever played on a Pleyel!

There are many things one can work on effectively using only a digital!

Polishing pieces for the concert stage not so much.... but our applied knowledge of harmony through improvisation.... most certainly!

[mjames]

Several Colleges/Unis in the US that I applied to have a pretty good music program, so maybe I'll get to try some Steinways too? That is if I get in! Even though I won't major in music, I plan to minor in it and learn as much as I can for the next 4 years.

And Pleyels are wonderful! It's a pity that the company went bankrupted.

By the time I get a job after college they'll be really expensive to get

[outin]

Fantastic!

Make sure you practice them all in formula pattern, and separated by a 3rd and a 6th!

Formula pattern, in case you don't know, means two octaves up, two octaves out (contrary motion), two octaves in, two octaves up, two octaves down, two octaves out, two octaves in, and two octaves down.

I know...all those things that take me a long time to get into my head...

Funny though...after a lot of scale practice I realized today that my RH octaves are better...must have released some of the tightness in my hand. Or has my hand grown bigger?

[awesom_o]

Or has my hand grown bigger?

I don't know.... my hands are definitely bigger than they were before I started studying technique.... but I've spent a LONG time studying technique!

[noambenhamou]

my piano teacher was one of his students. he spoke about him all the time. too bad when i was that age, i didn't listen. now i regret it.

watching some youtube of michelangeli, his fingers look the same as my teacher (been dead for 6 years so sad!)

I remember my teacher's playing quite vividly.
Fingers don't lift. Always close to the keys.

Try it, play fantasie impromptu by chopin only right hand but try not to use your fingers. Just use weight distribution, and make sure the hand, and more importantly the finger in question is ALWAYS over the key being pressed.

In other words, the fingers didn't go up and down that much. The finger being played would stiffen, and the weight of the arm and hand would cause it to play.

don't mistake it that the arm and hand jumped up and down, it is ALOT more subtle than that

[awesom_o]

Fingers don't lift. Always close to the keys.

100% correct!

How's your Hamburg D treating you? 

I quite liked your musical ideas in the Brahms you posted on PW the other day!

[noambenhamou]

Haha thanks   the real question is how I'm treating my new Hamburg D.

PS I don't eat breakfast so don't try to impress me with your 24 etudes before breakfast circus act.

(I'm being funny not a jerk)

[awesom_o]

Yeah honestly I don't usually eat breakfast either. It makes getting through all 24 quite a bit easier!

[nick]

my piano teacher was one of his students. he spoke about him all the time. too bad when i was that age, i didn't listen. now i regret it.

watching some youtube of michelangeli, his fingers look the same as my teacher (been dead for 6 years so sad!)

I remember my teacher's playing quite vividly.
Fingers don't lift. Always close to the keys.

Try it, play fantasie impromptu by chopin only right hand but try not to use your fingers. Just use weight distribution, and make sure the hand, and more importantly the finger in question is ALWAYS over the key being pressed.

In other words, the fingers didn't go up and down that much. The finger being played would stiffen, and the weight of the arm and hand would cause it to play.

don't mistake it that the arm and hand jumped up and down, it is ALOT more subtle than that

This is the question I have been wondering about again, whether to depress the key with weight or just the finger. You are certain that weight was the source from your teacher I assume? I notice the difference in being even more relaxed with just fingers. With weight, muscles are more active once the key is depressed, with the finger slightly pressing on the keybed. With just fingers, it is only enough pressure from the finger to key the key down, so the sensation is very relaxed.
  I'm an old guy, 60, and remember Walter Geiseking (sp) who also played with fingers on the keys. Wrote a book with a guy named something like Karl Lamer. I don't remember mention of the weight depressing the key, could be wrong. Said to be extremely relaxed.
Interested in any thoughts.

Nick

 

[noambenhamou]

I'm not an expert, but here is a few things I have learned in my short and pathetic existence on this earth. If it looks the same, odds are it is the same.

At least a good starting point.

Watch Michelangeli play something on YouTube and learn it and mimic it like a monkey would.  Video your hands, when it looks the same, odds are in my opinion, you are getting close.

I'm going to do what I just advised. I think its a good idea. And Michelangeli is a great guy to mimic in my opinion. One of the best techniques.

[awesom_o]

This is the question I have been wondering about again, whether to depress the key with weight or just the finger.

  I'm an old guy, 60, and remember Walter Geiseking (sp) who also played with fingers on the keys. Wrote a book with a guy named something like Karl Lamer. I don't remember mention of the weight depressing the key, could be wrong. Said to be extremely relaxed.
Interested in any thoughts.

Nick

 

The Gieseking/Leimer book is one of the very very best!!! Personally, I use the strength of the hand (with the entire body's energy being behind it) to depress the keys.

I wouldn't describe it as arm-weight.... but other people WOULD describe it as arm-weight.

In my opinion, it's all about having enough support within the structure of the hand itself (the arch and/or bridge) to be able to use the FULL body's kinetic energy!

This is what I call the development of the hand, which I'm constantly banging on about!

[nick]

Watch Michelangeli play something on YouTube and learn it and mimic it like a monkey would.  Video your hands, when it looks the same, odds are in my opinion, you are getting close.

Yes, doing it now but one cannot tell whether sound is from weight or not. If using weight, all the notes have the same until you reduce weight or increase. With fingers only, it is more development of touch it appears. Horowitz once said he worked and worked to get his pinky to sing. If it was just weight, it would have sung immediately as same volume when playing pinky. Hmm.

Nick

[awesom_o]

Development of touch is what it's ALL about! 

[pianoman53]

I can help you play like Pollini. When I posted my recording of op. 10/1 here, somebody actually accused me of stealing Pollini's recording of it a la Joyce Hatto!

Wait, what?
You can't possibly be that big of a douche, so that you actually believe that?
Okay, one guy on pianostreet told you that you stole the recording.
I have a recording somewhere here, that some people claim was the best recording they heard of that piece.

One recording doesn't make you Pollini, and one recording can't give you the idea that you can teach people to play like him.

[d3boy2002]

A bit off topic, but being a racing nut, does anyone know what car/series Michelangeli raced in?

[awesom_o]

I have a recording somewhere here, that some people claim was the best recording they heard of that piece.

Let's hear it! 

[noambenhamou]

A bit off topic, but being a racing nut, does anyone know what car/series Michelangeli raced in?

He raced spec mistas with scca holding lap record at thunderhill and infenion aka sears point.
You didn't know this?hahahah

[pianoman53]

My point is, people on pianostreet say things. No offence to anyone, but not many people here can call themselves professionals, or even semi. Just because one has recorded a cd doesn't mean they are Pollini, or just because someone say that a specific recording is the best they've heard, doesn't mean it actually is.

But whatever, you go ahead and teach people to play Pollini. After all, you play op 10 no 1 fast and clear.

[outin]

My point is, people on pianostreet say things. No offence to anyone, but not many people here can call themselves professionals, or even semi. Just because one has recorded a cd doesn't mean they are Pollini, or just because someone say that a specific recording is the best they've heard, doesn't mean it actually is.

But whatever, you go ahead and teach people to play Pollini. After all, you play op 10 no 1 fast and clear.

True, but awesome really does have remarkable technique (including musicality here) for someone who hangs out on this forum... of course that doesn't tell us anything about his ability to teach what he does.

He also has the habit of expressing things rather bluntly, which I kind of like about people

[awesom_o]

Just because one has recorded a cd doesn't mean they are Pollini

Personally, I find quite a bit of Pollini's Chopin playing to be lacking in expressiveness. I never said I was Pollini!

I am Beresford!

I don't think Pollini can play the cello 

[noambenhamou]

My point is, people on pianostreet say things. No offence to anyone, but not many people here can call themselves professionals, or even semi. Just because one has recorded a cd doesn't mean they are Pollini, or just because someone say that a specific recording is the best they've heard, doesn't mean it actually is.

But whatever, you go ahead and teach people to play Pollini. After all, you play op 10 no 1 fast and clear.

I understand what you are saying. Obviously there are no big shot pianists here and even semi recognizable names.

But on the other hand, if we only were willing to learn from "brand named" pianists then who would teach us?

A couple of years ago I took some private lessons from a university piano performance professor who was fantastic. He wasn't a name anyone would recognize, but he seemed to know the methods that each famous pianist used in their technique and interpretation and was able to explain and demonstrate thoroughly.

So just because someone can't play like pollini, or is as famous doesn't mean they don't have complete understanding on what he is doing.

Andre Agassi's tennis teacher will probably get his butt kicked by Agassi, yet he is still his teacher. And his teacher can probably explain and analyse Agassi's technique and other player's technique without a problem.

Awesome_o seems to have excellent technique. Can we argue this? No. And he seemed to gather this technique from years of dedication and practicing, and he probably had a very good teacher.

So he is helping us out buy commenting and suggesting. Probably relaying what his teacher told him at one point and probably some of his own unique advice. I for one, very appreciate this!

We would all appreciate if you also offered assistance if your playing is very good, which it probably is. Instead of pointing out the obvious that no one here is pollini.

Its a forum, where people give free advice, to be taken with a grain of salt always but I always listen carefully to one who plays better than me. I may not choose to execute the recommendation, but I always listen and give it some good thought.

[awesom_o]

Awesome_o seems to have excellent technique. Can we argue this? No. And he seemed to gather this technique from years of dedication and practicing, and he probably had a very good teacher.

I had about five very good teachers, actually!

[falala]

One of my teachers did a masterclass with him, supposedly Michaelangeli did a practice called 'silent practice', I have gone into detail about this elsewhere, it is similar to the finger tapping which Glenn Gould did.

Link? I'd be interested to read more about this.

[nick]

Link? I'd be interested to read more about this.

Me too!

Nick