Is 14 y/o too old to become a concert pianist

[chopinrabbitthing]

Hey guys
I've seen this question pop up several times on Pianostreet (and I'm still kinda new) - but how slim are the chances of me becoming a concert pianist?
I've a considerable amount of ATCL and LTCL pieces in my repertoire, many national competition awards, and have made a concerto debut earlier on in the year. I study Cramer-Bulow etudes, and a small amount of Chopin etudes. I also have quite a mature sense of music compared to a lot of the best teenage pianists in my country (no, I didn't make that up - many people have said that to me ). I'm a really determined chap, who always knows what he's aiming for, and will work as hard as I can to achieve it.

My only problem is, I'm afraid I'm not good enough to be a concert pianist, especially since it's impossible for me to study third-level music along with my second-level country (my country's education is really stupid, IMO), unlike those in China, Russia, and even England (Chethams' etc). I also think I'm technically behind - although I can play some really difficult pieces for an pianist my age in my country, it doesn't match young pianists from other places in the world, and even some in my country.

I'm planning to start entering international competitions next year, for experience, and maybe taking masterclasses abroad.

So, really honestly, do I sound like concert-pianist material? I don't strive to be as famous as famous as Horowitz, Rubinstein, or in today's terms, Lang Lang, but I have a dream to perform for a living.

Thanks

[awesom_o]

I don't strive to be as famous as famous as Horowitz, Rubinstein, or in today's terms, Lang Lang, but I have a dream to perform for a living.

The trouble is, the market is fully saturated with skillful individuals willing to display their talents for no money at all. In every major city there are conservatoires filled with no-name students practicing every day, who would be willing to play their concerto with a prominent orchestra at the drop of a hat for no fee whatsoever.

So realistically, how are you ever going to get paid big bucks to do piano concertos on tour with big-name orchestras?

Even if you do win a big competition, it's not like winning the lottery!
How do you plan to transition from being a piano performance student who has to pay money to enter competitions to being a big-time pro with agents on different continents making thousands of dollars for every single appearance?

There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of the former, and only several of the latter!

[ranniks]

The trouble is, the market is fully saturated with skillful individuals willing to display their talents for no money at all. In every major city there are conservatoires filled with no-name students practicing every day, who would be willing to play their concerto with a prominent orchestra at the drop of a hat for no fee whatsoever.

So realistically, how are you ever going to get paid big bucks to do piano concertos on tour with big-name orchestras?

Even if you do win a big competition, it's not like winning the lottery!
How do you plan to transition from being a piano performance student who has to pay money to enter competitions to being a big-time pro with agents on different continents making thousands of dollars for every single appearance?

There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of the former, and only several of the latter!

[awesom_o]

I think that's wonderful motivational material!

However, the fact remains that there is a National Basketball Association, and even if you are near the bottom of the draft, your starting salary is close to $1 million/year!

There is no starting salary for concert pianists! There is no National Pianist Association!

If you want to make money from music, you are in the wrong genre!

[falala]

Worth noting that life affirming motivational soundbites are not necessarily true, and even those who are great at something cannot necessarily be relied upon to explain why they are great at it.

This quote is obviously nonsense, as one can tell from the fact that there are so many other people out there who play basketball all their lives, missing shot after shot and losing game after game - yet never become great, let alone Michael Jordan great.

A tolerance of failing over and over again is probably necessary for greatness in anything, but it sure as hell isn't sufficient (as the quote, "... and that is WHY I succeed" suggests).

[j_menz]

There is no National Pianist Association!

There is if you're a yank.

[Bob]

A music version would be funny.

"I've missed over 9,000 notes in my career.
Flubbed over 300 performances.
20 times, I've screwed up the final chord in a piece."

I suppose it's still a bit inspirational.  But I don't think that's going to cut it in music.

[mathandmusic]

The trouble is, the market is fully saturated with skillful individuals willing to display their talents for no money at all. In every major city there are conservatoires filled with no-name students practicing every day, who would be willing to play their concerto with a prominent orchestra at the drop of a hat for no fee whatsoever.

So realistically, how are you ever going to get paid big bucks to do piano concertos on tour with big-name orchestras?

Even if you do win a big competition, it's not like winning the lottery!
How do you plan to transition from being a piano performance student who has to pay money to enter competitions to being a big-time pro with agents on different continents making thousands of dollars for every single appearance?

There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of the former, and only several of the latter!

Great response and I hate to point out the obvious here but OP seemed to have asked if he was concert-pianist material, not whether he'll find a niche in the market by touring.

[ranniks]

A lot of musicians are snobs, even the ones just taking piano lessons.

In my opinion only successfull concert pianists can answer the OP, and I believe a lot will tell him to go for it.

Here we have a 14 year old who can devote the next 6 years of his life to piano only, practising hours a day until his figners scramble up. At 20 he will be better than a lot/majority of pianists on pianostreet. When he goes to music school he will do even greater things.

So the reason people are so pessimistic about this topic, is because deep down inside they don't want that person to achieve.

Imagine if someone told a 14 year old Einstein he was stupid...

Wait, someone did. And look at who's one of the greatest minds of humanity?

[awesom_o]

Here we have a 14 year old who can devote the next 6 years of his life to piano only, practising hours a day until his figners scramble up. At 20 he will be better than a lot/majority of pianists on pianostreet. When he goes to music school he will do even greater things.

I want the OP to achieve everything that he can!

However, we get a ton of threads started by 14 year old kids asking if it's too late to become successful concert pianists!

The OP mentions that he doesn't want to be world-famous... he just wants to make a living on the concert stage.... sadly the reality is that ONLY world-famous concert pianists make a living on the concert stage!

Most of the younger pianists on the circuit these days (Lang Lang, Yuja Wang, Benjamin Grosvenor, to name a few) already had quite a bit of stuff going on in their careers at age 14!

The thing that really ticks me off, is that the OP has given us no recordings or videos of his playing!

Post a video, and I will tell you honestly and frankly whether or not you are concert pianist material!

[chicoscalco]

Arnaldo Cohen is a very special case and should be taken into account. He studied piano all of his life, but only for his pleasure, never thinking he would never have to depend financially on it. He even went to an engineering school. Only when he was, I believe, 19, he decided to start studying very seriously to become a musician. He didn't know any concertos, he was just very talented and very passionate about music. A very intelligent person as well.
Today, he is a world class pianist. He already refused to record a CD with the DG, he won the first prize in the Busoni competition...

PS: I think I forgot to mention 2 things. One, he decided to start a piano career because a famous pianist told him in a master class he had potential to become world wide famous. Another things is that he lived in poverty for some years, having moments when he didn't have anything to eat at all. This was when he was studying piano in Vienna.

Well, I think we shouldn't base ourselves on those kids who are 13 and can already play the TC... music isn't about the difficulty of the repertoire. But it IS true that a lot of youngsters are a bit naive when it comes to their own talents, and to the difficulty of the profession. I'm not saying it is your case, OP.

As awesome said, the only thing we can do is listen to what you post, and give advices. Other than that, good luck!

[j_menz]

can already play the TC

The what? 

[falala]

In my opinion only successfull concert pianists can answer the OP, and I believe a lot will tell him to go for it.

What makes you believe that? And do you think they would tell him to go for it without even hearing him play first, like you seem to think we should?

The OP mentions that he doesn't want to be world-famous... he just wants to make a living on the concert stage.... sadly the reality is that ONLY world-famous concert pianists make a living on the concert stage!

Bingo. We can't possibly advise the OP one way or another without hearing him play. But what we can do is correct misapprehensions he has about the nature of the profession.

This is a refrain I've started to notice a few times here, usually something like: "I know I'll probably never become one of the very greatest, most famous concert pianists - but that's OK because I'll be happy to just be a second tier one playing the music I love to audiences and earning a decent living". The error here is in the assumption that such a market for second tier concert pianists EXISTS at all. It doesn't. There are great, famous concert pianists, and then there are teachers who might manage to put on a concert or two occasionally to local people they know and not make too much of a loss. There is hardly anyone in between.

This is not saying anything about what the OP should do, it's just laying out the facts that he has to deal with. How he deals with those facts is his business. But the responsible and reasonable response to his query is to give him accurate information. We're always better off making our decisions on the basis of accurate information, than on the basis of fantasy.

If it were any other instrument I'd probably say otherwise. There is a living of sorts to be made as a good-but-not-great, jobbing violinist, clarinettist or drummer. There even is as a keyboard player covering a range of styles and being able and prepared to play anything. But there isn't as a good-but-not-great classical concert pianist.

If the OP wants to take that information and decide that he doesn't care, he'll just dedicate his life to becoming one of the hallowed few at the very top, then good on him. That's his choice.

[chopinrabbitthing]

The thing that really ticks me off, is that the OP has given us no recordings or videos of his playing!

Post a video, and I will tell you honestly and frankly whether or not you are concert pianist material!

I will sometime hopefully...there are videos of me playing on youtube but IMO they are terrible and don't really represent what I can play.

[chopinrabbitthing]

When he goes to music school he will do even greater things.

I already do, but part-time. I got a scholarship into the (in my opinion, haha!) best conservatory in my country and couple of years back, and my teacher is an international prizewinner and has taken masterclasses with some of the greats.

[chopinrabbitthing]

Here's another thing if it helps:
I only realised my true love for the instrument like, two years ago, and I just totally made up my mind about being pursuing a piano-related career in the past year.

Before being admitted in my conservatory (on scholarship) I had just played the piano, thinking that playing the piano was only a matter of hitting the notes (no phrasing, no idea of how to pedal, no nothing) and adjusting how I played to sound nice (my teacher at the time was about Grade 8 standard).

For the past three and a half years (my time at the conservatory) I actually have come a long way - from the hardest piece I knew being something like a Bach invention to now, taking on Chopin, Liszt etudes etc. I was thinking, if I kept at it I would reach a high enough level to be as technically good as the others, if not better

I'll try to post more videos on youtube in the coming future, maybe after the New Year.

[classiciano61]

I think you need to try and find out!
Self confidence is very important. 
If you fail to become a concert pianist, you still will have a lot of good choices in life

[brogers70]

The only advice I have is ..... Don't ask for or take advice on your musical career from a bunch of people you've never met and who've never heard you play over the internet. Anything they say is much more related to things going on in their own heads, their own music, arguments they've had with others, things they are worried about, etc, than it is to your specific situation. And you'll just pick out things they say that line up with your own hopes or fears. This kind of forum is useful if you have a very specific, well-formulated question about a given piece, not for general career advice.

If you want real advice, get it from a teacher or other pianist who knows your playing, and even then, you should make up your own mind anyway.

[gregh]

If you fail to become a concert pianist, you still will have a lot of good choices in life

That's what they said about my physics degree.

[chopinrabbitthing]

The only advice I have is ..... Don't ask for or take advice on your musical career from a bunch of people you've never met and who've never heard you play over the internet. Anything they say is much more related to things going on in their own heads, their own music, arguments they've had with others, things they are worried about, etc, than it is to your specific situation. And you'll just pick out things they say that line up with your own hopes or fears. This kind of forum is useful if you have a very specific, well-formulated question about a given piece, not for general career advice.

If you want real advice, get it from a teacher or other pianist who knows your playing, and even then, you should make up your own mind anyway.

Thank you so so so much for your answer, this is actually really helpful I'll definitely take your advice

[chicoscalco]

The what? 

Sorry, I was a bit tired from writing in english and ended up inventing this thing hahahaha "tchaikovsky concerto" lol 

[ranniks]

The only advice I have is ..... Don't ask for or take advice on your musical career from a bunch of people you've never met and who've never heard you play over the internet. Anything they say is much more related to things going on in their own heads, their own music, arguments they've had with others, things they are worried about, etc, than it is to your specific situation. And you'll just pick out things they say that line up with your own hopes or fears. This kind of forum is useful if you have a very specific, well-formulated question about a given piece, not for general career advice.

If you want real advice, get it from a teacher or other pianist who knows your playing, and even then, you should make up your own mind anyway.

Wow, thank you sir! That's some really good advice!

I'm going to use it as well.

[d3boy2002]

And remember, the learning curve is more like this:
https://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/learning_curve.htm

To see if it's really worth the effort >.>

[dima_76557]

Also note that there is absolutely no such thing as talent. Anyone who tells you that there is knows nothing about doing well in anything.

We have a very long topic about this (do a search). I am one of those who believe it *does* exist, but it is often simply defined wrongly.

A "talent" is a person who has found something to reach for. Give him/her the circumstances to reach for it properly every day and they will become great without fail. They simply condition themselves in being good at it because what they are reaching for is worth making any required effort. It works like a drug. Hard work may be a punishment for others, but for them it doesn't even feel like hard work. On the contrary: it causes pleasure and reward.

The practical problems with this are multiple. To name the most important ones:
1) determine what really gets them going and give them the opportunity to do just that;
2) find good guidance;
3) have the means to support their development.

[awesom_o]

We have a very long topic about this (do a search). I am one of those who believe it *does* exist, but it is often simply defined wrongly.

A "talent" is a person who has found something to reach for. Give him/her the circumstances to reach for it properly every day and they will become great without fail.

So a "talent" is basically just a determined person who has intrinsic self-motivation and some level of opportunity to study their chosen field instead of, say, getting stuck working at McDonalds?

[outin]

Also note that there is absolutely no such thing as talent.

I think you still have some learning to do about life and nature

[dima_76557]

So a "talent" is basically just a determined person who has intrinsic self-motivation and some level of opportunity to study their chosen field instead of, say, getting stuck working at McDonalds?

I am not so sure if one can phrase it like that. Partly yes, partly no. If we assume that what doesn't come easily/naturally to them will most likely not be chosen as something they will themselves reach for, then yes.
EDIT: Also, what one ultimately does with that "talent" says not so much about the amount of "talent". One may have a "talent" for music, for example, but one may not like the concert world, so becoming a professional musician is not an automatic result of that "talent". It can be a choice for or against.

[d3boy2002]

yeah sorry, that's what I meant, that is is defined wrong.
Just wanted to simplify I guess! My mistake!

[pianoplayer51]

Helene Grimaud became a concert pianist when she was about 17 I think.   She started learning from the age of 7 and picked it up very fast.

In this next clip, we see a 12 year old boy concert pianist.   I guess what I am trying to say is that if you have the skill and the ability you can do it.   It takes a lot of hard work and effort and you need to seek out a very good top quality piano teacher to ask him or her to watch you play and if they think you are good enough to be put forward to a good music college to train as a professional concert pianist then they will tell you.   This is what happened to Helene Grimaud.  Her teacher said to her parents "she must go to the Paris Coservatory of music and I will prepare her entry" (she had to take a piano exam to enter)

[falala]

A "talent" is a person who has found something to reach for. Give him/her the circumstances to reach for it properly every day and they will become great without fail.

Evidence for this?

[awesom_o]

Just for the record, my piano skills were pretty craptacular at age 14, and I've come quite a long way in the decade since then.

Anything can happen with the right determination!

[dima_76557]

Evidence for this?

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." (c)

Aristotle

[falala]

You don't seem to understand the word "evidence". 

[awesom_o]

Dima isn't big on evidence, it's true....

Nevertheless, Aristotle was 100% correct.

[dima_76557]

You don't seem to understand the word "evidence".  

If Artistotle was right, aren't his words enough evidence? "Evidence" has virtually no meaning in immaterial matters. What you know to be true *is* your evidence.

P.S.: Maybe you simply mistunderstood "great"? "Great" is not necessarily "famous" in my mind.

A 9-year old girl who taught herself to sing (without singing lessons!) a most difficult aria to the level in the following clip from simply watching YouTube videos, is that good enough? I know that if she had had lessons in a traditional way, she would have been training silly exercises until she was 45, and would still not have been able to do it the way she does it here:

[gregh]

How many musicians accept that skill in mathematics is only a matter of practice? It certainly bothered me when a friend dismissed his own lack as his not having a "math gene". It seemed to deny my long hours and hard work for mediocre grades.

There was a study of music students that showed that some had "talent" and an initial head start on their peers, but instruction and practice habits determined long-term success. On the other hand, since it was a study of music students, it was a study of people who had been successful enough to audition and be accepted into a music school, and may not reflect those who become discouraged early at their suckiness and abandoned their instruments for other things.

Then there are people who have biological problems. Some people literally can't hear music--it sounds like noise to them. Some people have more trouble with intonation or timing. Some people practice and practice, and develop technical skills, but can't seem to bring artistry into their music. I don't know if that's a matter of instruction and practice habits or something else--certainly practice isn't just time logged.

Then there are people like Richard Feynman who are just successful at anything they try--drumming in a Brazilian salsa band (the band leader told another player, "play like Il Americano"), Portugese language, Japanese language, lockpicking, Nobel prize in physics for discovering quantum electrodynamics... you'd have to read a book to get it all. Back to math, I remember a fellow physics student in particular whose assignments always seemed more complete and correct than mine, and he still had time while classes were in session for hobbies and a social life; friendly and helpful guy, so I can't hold that against him. At the highest levels of performance you're a musical "genius".

[falala]

If Artistotle was right, aren't his words enough evidence? "Evidence" has virtually no meaning in immaterial matters. What you know to be true *is* your evidence.

P.S.: Maybe you simply mistunderstood "great"? "Great" is not necessarily "famous" in my mind.

Yes, it occurred to me afterwards that this might be the confusion. FWIW I don't particularly disagree with the Aristotle quote, as far as it goes.

The issue here is that the OP is asking about being a professional concert pianist, which means putting oneself up for judgment according to other peoples' criteria, and succeeding. Succeeding in winning competitions, getting record deals, getting audiences to come to concerts and buy CDs, etc. etc.

These things are NOT "immaterial". They are most definitely material.

If you want to describe how it's possible to have excellence in your "state of mind", believe absolutely in what you do and do it to the highest level you possibly can, even if you don't succeed professionally, then great. I'm not even disagreeing.

But that's all off topic really, and wasn't what the OP was asking. To claim that those kind of factors will ensure that someone becomes professionally successful, is quite clearly wrong.

[dima_76557]

To claim that those kind of factors will ensure that someone becomes professionally successful, is quite clearly wrong.

I never said anything like that. It was d3boy2002 who introduced the term "talent" in this thread. Although I said that such a thing exists, I made clear reservations as to why "talent" alone cannot be a crucial factor for a professional career. Besides, the professionals we see on the international arena are certainly not the greatest pianists in the world, mostly because the really good ones often lack either the skills or the opportunity to manage their careers effectively and also because they refuse to participate in the circus around mandatory competitions, etc.

[awesom_o]

mostly because the really good ones often lack either the skills or the opportunity to manage their careers effectively and also because they refuse to participate in the circus around mandatory competitions, etc.

  Sad but true.

[gregh]

I never said anything like that. It was d3boy2002 who introduced the term "talent" in this thread. Although I said that such a thing exists, I made clear reservations as to why "talent" alone cannot be a crucial factor for a professional career. Besides, the professionals we see on the international arena are certainly not the greatest pianists in the world, mostly because the really good ones often lack either the skills or the opportunity to manage their careers effectively and also because they refuse to participate in the circus around mandatory competitions, etc.

That makes me think of a friend of mine who used to play guitar and violin for a blues-oriented band, until the band leader moved out of state. They all had day jobs, but they were breaking even, which isn't bad as far as that sort of thing goes. And if their success was limited, it's not because of their technical skills. They were all quite good.

And then the metal band KISS said they don't play anything that a talented teenager couldn't handle. Success in music really does come out to more than command of the instrument. Composition, promotion, showmanship, personality... you need to bring all of those elements together somehow, and some people just get a head-start by knowing some of the right kinds of people who can make their contributions. Or by having conditions in life, or the drive, to pass other opportunities so they can get out and work the scene. And some people sabotage themselves by trying to be an artist on someone else's gig, or by pissing people off, and then they don't get called back.

Maybe a concert pianist who auditions for a spot really is more about playing ability, but the music business is broader than that.