Considering Charles Walter 1520

[onemaster]

I have learned so much from the discussions on this board.  Thank you for all the time and information you each provide!

We are looking to upgrade our piano for my daughter.  She is 14 and has been playing for 7 years on a family hand-me-down Wurlitzer spinet.  We do not have space for a grand, so we need to go taller!

Having tried Kawai, Yamaha, Steinway, Heintzman, and others, she generally preferred the action and tone of Yamahas.  Actually, her favorite was the Fazioli Concert Grand the kind salesman took her in to play.  lol  Then we found a used 2007 Charles Walter 1520 Queen Anne Console, Langer action, one owner.   She loves it and all the reviews seem good, so we placed a deposit on it.

My main question is this...at $4250, we thought the deal was amazing, considering our research.  It seems that new ones retail for $12k-$16k.  Is that right?  The original receipt the owners have from 2007 shows they bought it for only $5600, though.  Do pianos really go up that much in price over the course of 6 years?  Does this seem right to you all?  I'm assuming the 12 year warranty from Charles Walter would carry over to us, as well?

Also, as an advanced piano student, is this a piano that will serve her well considering a grand is not an option?  I realize it is not as tall as others, but everyone seems to say the sound and action is just as good, and she really liked it.

I appreciate any advice or input! 
Thanks,
Andrea

[faulty_damper]

I don't know about the pricing. Have you looked into the bluebook of pianos price list?
And I've never heard of Charles Walter 1520.  To be honest, I thought it was some kind of scotch whiskey.  But yes, warrantees are usually transferable.

I'm actually looking in to a digital because of the amount of volume the pieces I'd like to play requires so being able to practice at 3 in the morning is of utmost important to me.  If the kind of repertoire she likes to play is loud as well, and she's very flexible in the times she practices, a digital is something that should seriously be considered.

[hfmadopter]

You would need to ask the dealer about warranty information, make them get specific.

About the piano itself, of course as usual much depends on the specific piano you are looking at and how it was treated. However the brand has a quality background and the model sort of compares well in tone and playability with the slightly larger studio models from other manufacturers. It should have nice action for an upright ( I'm not a huge fan of uprights so I can never let that line pass !). I know nothing about pricing, where Charles Walter stands in the world market and manufacture in recent years etc.

[pianoparent2013]

Hi Onemaster,

We own a 2009 Walter 1520. It cost us $9000 new, and MSRP then was around $11,000. The original purchaser of your piano got a really good discount; assuming they bought it new.

Please keep in mind that our 1520 has not been regulated since arriving in our house 3 years ago. It has been religiously tuned twice a year but is one year late in regulation work. It will receive regulation in January. So the comments below may not apply to a well-regulated 1520.

This piano helped my daughters progress from RCM Level 2 to Level 7 at an impressive pace. Ideally, according to their piano teacher, students pursuing level 8 and above should start to practice more on a grand piano but an upright will do as long as it is properly tuned and regulated to support pp and ff practice.

The key is whether your daughter can play pp and ff on the piano as required by her teacher. From level 8 and beyond, they start paying attention to pp, ff, expressiveness and also speed. For example, Beethoven's Moonlight, Waldstein and Appassionata.

On a grand, my daughters can go as pp and ff as they want and can; while on the 1520, they can go only as pp and ff as the 1520 will allow. Your daughter will have to examine this closely and decide if she can practice without problems. For my girls, they can easily adapt to their teacher's grand, so the 1520 is not yet hampering their progress.

Our 1520 will receive regulation work in January and if you are interested, I can post our impression regarding pp and ff practice then.

Happy Holidays!
 
ps.
1. You can check out the free on-line magazine at pianobuyer.com to see the current MSRP and other prices.

2. Yes, Walter warranty does transfer. It is best to take the serial number and call the factory directly. They are very good people and can give you definitive answer.

[onemaster]

Thank you all for your input!  Obviously a good grand piano would be better, but with 5 kiddos, space is at a premium around here.  I would love to hear an update, pianoparent2013, when you have the piano regulated. 

[pianoparent2013]

Hi Onemaster,

Our 1520 has been serviced and is now in great shape.

Tuning has never been a big issue with twice-a-year tuning. The piano is very good at holding its pitch. It was key-feel that caused concerns.

As my children's skills improve, they began to notice differences in feel between our 1520 and their teacher's grand. At first, we accepted such differences as normal between different types of piano. As their lessons required more and more practice with very soft playing, the differences became real issues.

Some keys on the 1520 could not be played as softly as their teacher's grand. They had to play at about 1/3 more finger strength for the Walter to make a sound. The difference was just great enough to make transfer to the grand piano distracting. Especially when only some keys had this behavior.

Some other keys on the 1520 had slightly different "weight" and required slightly different finger strengths. This too became a distraction as muscle memory developed.

None of these problems were huge, and were not even noticeable until my children learned how to feel the keys.

We did not know if these were normal 1520 deficiencies or just normal wear-and-tear. Our tech came this week and gave the piano a good look and declared that it was just the piano "settling" into our environment. He promptly proved it by eliminating the problems. 

On playing softly, he confirmed that upright can never match the grand although they can come close. After his work, my kids happily reported that they now only need about 1/5 the difference in finger strength to play very softly on the Walter. This makes for a smooth transition from the 1520 to the teacher's grand. This "1/5" is only meaningful for their teacher's grand piano. Other grand may feel different.

On consistent key weight, it was cleaning, lubricating and general tweaking. All the keys are now consistent in feel, at least according to my children.

So, we are happy with our 1520 and will not be pursuing a grand piano any time soon. My children can keep practicing on the 1520 and then transfer that to their teacher's grand.

If you have purchased the 1520, it should serve well for many years to come. Do have a tech check it in two to three years.

Good luck and enjoy your piano!

[indianajo]

They must sell such junk these days. None of the church pianos I play have been regulated, just tuned. A three old piano needing regulation? What ****.   I play a lot of 30 year old consoles that are as consistent in volume as you want at low force, soft.  Buy a fifties or sixties low usage Baldwin, Hamilton by Baldwin, Sohmer, Steinway, Wurlitzer, console, 39" or taller.  These were made of known quality North American spruce and maple, not some bootleg (see bbcnews.com) siberian wood of unknown long term characteristics.  
Check for consistence at low volume before you buy, and look at the hammers that they are not worn by excessive hours, especially Steinways. Look for broken strings and don't buy one of those.   Note all brands except Steinway have been bought up by global corporations since the mid eighties who have been using the names to sell junk.  I played a 90's Wurlitzer in a student's home this fall, which had terrible low force consistency.  Nothing like the 70's Wurlitzer I have played in a church.  If you check out these brands and don't expect a craigslist piano to be in tune, you can buy a great performer for $200-600 plus moving. If you buy from a flea market reseller, he will do the moving for you and likely has tuned it for 100% markup over the previous prices.  
The new Pearl River console my high school friend bought in the 00's is junk.  Breaks the same string over and over.  
Yamahas seem to hold up under use, but I don't like the sound, and the middle pedal is a vile sound damper, not a lower half sustain like my Sohmer.  You can't have a working just the notes down middle pedal sustain on a console piano, but learning to work around it is important.  There are not too many performance venues in my economic class that have grands, and they certainly don't let non-contributing walk in players touch the grand if they do have one.  
My church had a decent sounding and performing seventies Kawai, probably made in North Carolina from the history I read.  Why they replaced it with a boring sounding Yamaha that needs a microphone to fill the hall with bad sound, is completely beyond my comprehension.  But "it is new", they tell me.  
Electric pianos are a very short term investment, IMHO.  Show me one still working without major overhaul in 30 years.  My 1982 Sohmer and 1941 Steinway consoles will still be sounding great, I predict if I am still there to keep playing them and keep them away from the dump where most heirs would consign them.  

[hfmadopter]

Great news then, the piano regulated well, that's good !! Who is to say that it was well regulated all along ? It's done now though .

[pianoparent2013]

Dear Indianajo,

We were novice acoustic piano owner and did not take perfect care of our new Walter in the first year. It experienced wide swing of seasonal RH between 40%-80% and daily RH swing of 55%-80% in the Summer. Daily temperature swing of 60-F to 80F was common throughout the first Summer. Our tech finally got through to us after the first year and this 1520 has been in a stable environment since then.

Did that first year of unstable environment somehow impact the piano? The tech thought so. Knowing what we know now about acoustic piano, we believe so too. Even the best built Steinway or that 50,000th Boesendorfer will suffer in such wildly unstable environment. 

Our tech happens to tune concert pianos and often works at local regional open concert events. He talked about the need to tune early in the morning before a concert began. As the day wore on and the RH and temperature changed, he had to keep tuning between performances. I do not believe he was exaggerating just to make a point.

We dare not blame the piano for our mistakes.

[hfmadopter]

Dear Indianajo,

We were novice acoustic piano owner and did not take perfect care of our new Walter in the first year. It experienced wide swing of seasonal RH between 40%-80% and daily RH swing of 55%-80% in the Summer. Daily temperature swing of 60-F to 80F was common throughout the first Summer. Our tech finally got through to us after the first year and this 1520 has been in a stable environment since then.

Did that first year of unstable environment somehow impact the piano? The tech thought so. Knowing what we know now about acoustic piano, we believe so too. Even the best built Steinway or that 50,000th Boesendorfer will suffer in such wildly unstable environment.  

Our tech happens to tune concert pianos and often works at local regional open concert events. He talked about the need to tune early in the morning before a concert began. As the day wore on and the RH and temperature changed, he had to keep tuning between performances. I do not believe he was exaggerating just to make a point.

We dare not blame the piano for our mistakes.

That's ok, I'd hardly call a Walter's piano junk. Hand made in the USA, all good components, solid wood soundboard vs laminate, hand rubbed lacquer finish ( my personal favorite, gives a nice rendering to wood that poly doesn't have IMO and toughness that Shellac can't).. Not every maker can tout these facts. And not every new owner wants to take the chance on a 1941 Steinway with peeling veneer and needing the tech at the house to tune it 5 times before one tuning holds . Could turn out to be a good piano in the end and may just as well not, assuming the new owner even wants it in their house to begin with. Some would, some would not.

[indianajo]

The seventies Wurlitzer I played at a service 12/15/13 is in a struggling church that is minimally heated to prevent pipe freezing,  and not cooled except Sunday morning.  The humidity in the Ohio river valley ranges from 0% like today to 100% with fog in the spring.  When the music director said something about my playing any time, I mentioned $10 a week but that was too much of a committment for that church.  I talked to the former piano player in the nursing home the next day.  She said besides that Wurlitzer holding up very well, the prewar upright in the attic room was doing very well too, despite not having been tuned in years.  I can imagine the temperature swings up there.  
My house, I do heat and cool, to 55 deg the coldest winter day 1/2/14, to 80 degrees in the summer.  I run one window airconditioner not in the piano room, to keep mold from growing on the walls etc. My pianos don't need regulating, and the tuning on the Steinway held up for three years. I imagine the temperature swing in the music (dining) room to be larger than that shown on the thermostat in the living room. 
If one buys a used piano from a flea market vendor, it will be basically in tune, at twice the price of a raw piano from a craigslist siturations where "the carpet layers are coming tomorrow, it is going to Goodwill or your place".  You can try out the evenness of force the tone, and the speed of action there before you buy.  Or you could have bought a 1940 Steinway like I got for $1000 off craigslist with perfect finish from a vendor in New City NY on E-bay in 2012 for only $5500.  

[keys60]

Hi Andrea.

Charles Walters list, not retail for 12-16K. You can usually negotiate roughly 25% - 30% off of a list price from a dealer. Pianos aren't flying off the shelves these days. The market is saturated with used piano because A. they last a long time and B. They are hard to get rid of once you have it. C. There are some amazing restorers out there that are huge competition to the manufacturers.

I own a Charles Walter myself. I got it new in 2003. For its 43" height, it has a really strong and clear bass and project well overall. The key weight and balance is nice for a vertical.

When I bought it, I paid $5400 when it was listing for $8500. I felt I was playing some good hardball with the dealer but overall, I got a fair deal.  Piano list prices tend to go up around 5% per year. Considering the cost of a new one (you can probably get one out the door for around 8k) the initial depreciation since 2007 and the appreciation since then, I'd have to say you did pretty good at 4250. Not a steal, but certainly fair. I'd hope to get the same for my '03 when the time comes. I'm a part time piano tech and take good care of it. Kept regulated, tuned 4-5 times per year or just when I feel like it, hammers nicely shaped and voiced, cabinet in good but not stellar condition.

About regulating.....regulating can mean anything from minor to major adjustment in touch weight and hammer let off, key height, key strike......anything that can be off in the action. Its basic maintenance that should be performed every 5-7 years depending on playing time, environment, overall wear and tear and simply how much you like the way the action feels. If a person chooses not to regulate, they are simply happy with what they have and aren't that demanding of their instrument. Felt and wood wears out, gets brittle and changes with time. Its that simple. You did the right thing getting it regulated.

Good luck with it. Its a well made instrument. The cabinet is a beast, the action of good quality. The only thing I would have rather had is a Bolduc pin block instead of a Delignit (brand names) because i feel they are a little better in quality, but that shouldn't matter to you much. They are both good.

All the best. Listen to your tech. He knows.