Normal progress for a 7 Yr old

[tonym]

Hi folks, I am a long time lurker and now a first time poster. I would like to hear some input from the experts on my son’s progress and potential ability.

Our seven year old son started lessons last December with a school friend’s mother, who lived close by. She started him out with the Alfred prep course and taught him once a week (30 mins per session). After two months, she had to leave the area due to a job transfer and recommended a friend of hers so we transferred him at that time. The new teacher was a very nice young lady but didn’t have prior teaching experience. She thought our son was progressing quite rapidly but didn’t have the expertise to properly guide our son in the right direction. She told us our boy was quite musical and deserves an experienced teacher so we started looking. At this point he had completed six months of once a week 30 min lessons with inexperienced teachers and finished the Alfred Prep course levels A through F. We interviewed several teachers within a 3 week period and found a very accomplished teacher of 30 years who was very happy to teach our son. We think she is a wonderful teacher and we have been with her since the first part of July. She keeps telling us how gifted our boy is but I have no point of reference to compare just how fast he might be progressing. I have completed numerous searches on several forums but haven’t really seen any posts about the really young kids and how they normally progress.

When we started our son with the new (current) teacher, the first thing she did was to get him off of the Alfred series. She said she was not a big fan and wanted him to work from the Michael Aaron method books. She started him out on Grade 2 and he quickly completed the technique, lesson and performance books. She has him doing Hannon and Czerny OPUS 849 exercises currently. He has also completed almost every piece from the Burgmuller Op. 100 book. He is almost done with the last piece from this book (25. La Chevaleresque). In addition to Burgmuller, she has him playing from the Sonatina album. He has been working on Clementi’s Op 36 (all 3 movements) and has almost (99%) nailed this one down to performance level standards in our teacher’s opinion. Since his hands are so small (can only reach a 7th), she had to teach him a workaround to be able to play the 20th measure of the first movement. She tells us his technical ability has outpaced what he can reach. She constantly struggles trying to find pieces, which don’t require an octave’s reach to play. She wants him to start on Clementi Op36 No. 3 next but is not sure if he can manage it due to the reach problem. She is certain he is ready technically. Has anyone else experienced this problem? If so, any recommendations?

I forgot to mention, he practices close to an hour per day and his lessons are now an hour per week. His teacher said 30 mins was not enough for him. Also, I have no musical talent but my wife took lessons for 5 years in her youth and plays fairly well. She tries to help him along with his practice but he has a hard time taking correction from his mom, however, he has no problems with his teacher correcting him. He also memorizes everything he plays. He says he doesn't try but it seems to happen every time - his teacher tells him to try not to memorize but he can't help himself.

I would like to find out if my son is simply progressing at a normal pace for a seven year old or if he does indeed have some special talent. I welcome any comments/suggestions anyone might have.

Thanks,
Tony

[Bob]

Sounds like he's progressing a little faster than average.  And he's younger too.  Not bad at all.

Practicing an hour everyday?  Well done!

And hour-long lessons?  Good choice.  No wonder he's making good progress.  It's a challenge for the teacher to fit everything needed for a solid background into 30 minutes lessons once per week.

Yes, many students don't like to have their parents correct them.

The memory thing... Probably not a bad thing if he's figuring out the music for himself.  You could try more music, so he's not playing the same piece as much.  Of course, it depends what you mean by memorizing -- not using the score or not having to read each note anymore.  Either way, it sounds like he's progressing at a good pace, definitely behind, and when the pieces get harder, the automatic memorizing will probably fade a little.  The pieces are probably well within his understanding and ability to aurally absorb them.

The hand span thing -- Don't know much what to say.  He'll grow out of it in a few years.  He could always roll the chords, hit the low note like a grace note and jump up quickly if it's a chord (think ta-DAH!), or just alter the piece (the workarounds you mentioned).  I bet somebody has posted about hand spand -- You might want to try a search of this site.

Sounds like he's off to a good start.  I wish all my students were like him.  I would just be a little concerned that he still gets to be a kid.  However, doing all this a seven makes me think he could grow up to do something in music -- It's probably too late to be a professional contertizing musician (yes, seven is late), and he doesn't sound like a prodigy, but from what you've said I could see a student like that growing into a person who plays pretty well and has a great love for music when he grows up.  Definite potential to be a music major in college.

[namui]

This is a reply from another parent of two daughters (8y1m and 5y5m). Due to my children participation in a few recitals and competitions, I believe that I have seen how many children progress. Much enough to say that ..

Your son's progress is clearly faster than most children. My elder daughter is experiencing similar problem about octave reach that exists in most pieces. But she is starting to be able to handle some of them (she is studying Heller Op.45 No.16). So I found that the child can actually extend his/her reach a little longer after a few sessions of practice (with proper technique, of course). However, physical limit is always there. Probably just have to wait for his hand to be a little larger.

Following this reply, I'm sending you a message for the website that you can download my child's performance in regional competition earlier this year (when she was 7y3m). She was playing a Burgmuller's.

[ChristmasCarol]

Seven... late?!?!  Give me a break.  My only concern for this little guy is whether this energy and time invested in music is his idea and to what extent he is being pushed by his parents.  Little geniuses will flourish and grow into music as a way of life without much prodding I find.  I look for a response in the student and in others when they hear that student play for my litmus test of ability and promise.  Good ole fashioned gut feelings.  Come on, we've all heard stories of geniuses who were underestimated in their young years.  I frankly do not buy into ageism, sequential learning, or structured rules from one hundred years ago.  Today's young minds are like sponges and so eager to create and zoom through their experience.  Who knows what kind of musicians they will become?  I can't wait to hear it.  I often wonder what the climate was leading into the great era 150 years ago when all that fabulous classical music was written.  Why can't another great musical era be ahead for us?  I think ole' Ludwig  would have freaked out with a synthesizer at his fingertips.  Is your little boy doing well?  Ask him.  Get him opportunities to perform for others at every chance possible. 

[tonym]

Thanks everyone for your responses.  Different insights are very helpful.

We also worry about pushing him on the piano and we are very sensitive to that very thing.  We would have preferred he started younger but he didn’t really develop an interest until he was 6 3/4 yrs old.  The wife and I both agreed not to provide lessons unless it was his wish.  He eventually became very interested and asked to learn the piano and we were happy to oblige.  He is also involved in several other kids’ things like the boy scouts, etc.  We don’t want to force piano on him and always tell him to do what truly makes him happy.  We realize forcing someone to do something they truly dislike/despise can do long term damage and may drive them away from music forever.  With that being said, we do encourage him to practice on a regular basis and to do his very best at whatever he does.  He once went through a phase where he didn’t want to practice and we simply told him if he didn’t want to practice that was fine but we would not be wasting money on lessons, and he quickly had an attitude adjustment.  We just keep our fingers crossed and hope he will stick with it for the long term.

BTW, he just started doing the hour per day practice a few months ago (was half hour previously) -- the hour might be continuous or split up throughout the day (all depends).  The pieces he is currently tackling require more than 20-30 mins per day.

I appreciate the advice provided thus far and certainly look forward to more discussion.

[Daniel_piano]

It's probably too late to be a professional contertizing musician (yes, seven is late), and he doesn't sound like a prodigy, but from what you've said I could see a student like that growing into a person who plays pretty well and has a great love for music when he grows up. 

Seven is not late for be a piano concertist
Even though some famous pianist started at 3 or 4 most started at 6 or 8
Now, many people after completing the Conservatory becomes concerstist
A child starting at 7 would become a piano concertist a 16
Usually, nowadays, children starts piano at 10, they get their diploma at 20 and become, if good and willing enough, piano concertists
Mozart, that was considered a genius, got pissed with those that believes that anything was easy to him
He used to say that it tool the same years as other to become a good musician and composer and that it was tough as for other to play piece
So, I think all these theories about genius that learn to compose masterpieces and play virtuoso pieces in few months just because they were born with a higher IQ is outdated and false
Genius are just people who studies hard with determination and for them anything require an effort as for other
I can't imagine what would you espect from a 7 years old who can't reach an octave to be considered a prodigy
Prodigism doesn't exist, it is only hard work as anything else, now one was born being able to anything without studyig and working hard
And let's out another myth to rest forever once and for all
Having seen a lot of students becoming piano concertists let me tell you that you don't need to be a prodigy to become a piano concertist
You need to know the piano well and you need your pieces to sound musically
You need a diploma, but you don't need an super-high IQ, or to have started at 2 or to be a prodigy that play the Islamey after 4 weeks
I would say that tony son is working hard and that's why he is getting result
Not only he seems talented to me but he can easily become a piano concertist if that is the career he is interested in
7 years old, late? Baah, even 15 years old is not late anatomically and physiologically, then there is a social context that make easier for child to be directed towards such a career... but scientifically there's no reason why someone starting a 15 can't become as good as someone starting at 2
Motory coordination is developed between 8 years old and 12 years old
So, while it would be an advantage to play the piano before you're 12 years old, it would be a disadvantage to begin the piano at 2 or 3
I don't care if many pianists have started that young, statistical data are useless when talking about science
There's no advantage in starting before 8

Daniel

[Bob]

He's home-schooled I'm guessing?

I wonder if the lack of geniuses in our time has to do with public schools, either from everything being dull or watered down, or just that students are  exposed to a broad range of materials, instead of a narrow deep understanding of one topic.

[tonym]

Bob,

Luckily our son is enrolled in one of the best GATE (Gifted & Talented Education) programs in the state.  He is in a self-contained class with 18 other GATE kids from the district.  This particular GATE program focuses on the intellectually gifted children with IQ’s at or above 130.  Believe me, if he had not been accepted in this program we would be home schooling him now.

Working parents please don’t take offense to what I’m about to say.  I do understand it does take two incomes to make ends meet in many circumstances these days, however, I feel our son has greatly benefited from being raised by his mother rather than a day care center.  We did have to sacrifice a bit (buy a smaller house rather than the 4000 sqft one) in order for her to stay at home but I feel it is of great importance, especially in the critical first 5-6 yrs for a kid to be with his or her parent.  I realize there are probably other reasons our son is doing well but I attribute a large part of his early success to the diligence of his mother.  She has been reading to him since he was born (now at seven he reads at a 6th grade level).  She has been teaching him to enjoy classical music since birth (now it’s the only thing he considers to be music) and he is very well behaved.  His first grade teacher once commented that she could instantly tell the difference between a kid that had been raised by day care vs. a kid that had been raised by parents.

I know this was semi off-topic and will probably spark another debate but I think it gets to the core of what’s wrong with today’s youth.  Flames welcome 

Now, back to the original topic….  Do any teachers out there have any comments/tips on his piano approach?  I do trust his teacher but also have a very open mind and welcome other suggestions to help him out.  I did a lot of reading and see a lot of negatives about the Hannon/Czerny exercises.  Are they really a waste of time as many suggest?  If so, I might have a chat with his teacher about the topic.

Thanks again for all the responses thus far….

Tony     

[Daniel_piano]

He's home-schooled I'm guessing?

I wonder if the lack of geniuses in our time has to do with public schools, either from everything being dull or watered down, or just that students are  exposed to a broad range of materials, instead of a narrow deep understanding of one topic.

Yes, it has everything to do with school
Especially with the only-on-national-school-system approach
School is not designed to teach young people how to reason, how to make deduction and solve probalems with logic
School is just a kida useless corporation where children are given pure notions without any interraction within the professors, without any explanation on how the path they're following is supposed to work
They go everyday at school to learn simple notions that could be learned at far less than half that time and learn nothing about socialization, logic, deduction
On the other hand where there was a lack of school education and children used to leave on the countryside they did not own much notions but their deducation potential was nurtered by the rich life they had surrounded by nature and life experiences (good and bad)
Today kids like on a vacumm, they're overprotected from anything (even formative experiences that our parents too had) many mothers think of their kids as their property and they're caged between school, after-school activities and indoor activities like video-games and television
Their fantasy, imagination, instinct are not nurtered and the new experience they do each do are very poor or non-existant
School (as we know it today) is just another piece on the whole capitalistic society puzzle
It is intended to teach children how to use their left side of the brain and to suppress their alfa celebral waves
It is intended to suppress anything within the kid mind that is atemporal, instinctive, imaginary, analogic, global, concrete with counterparts that are symbolic, computistic, linear, temporal, verbal
In a word: money
School is intended to suppress free thought so that anyone can be happy the under-average puppet needed by the society to earn money by conducting a boring and monotone life alwyas repeating the same mechanical things everyday
If school would form kids mind nurturing their intelligence and potential then we would have a lot of contempt from kids as they would realize that they're being trained to become the new member of the capitalistic society: spending zombies
So, school is intended to suppress intelligence so that a capitalistic society brainwashing is subtle and accepted by the young minds, even though they are not aware of this

Last nigh I was reading about a Scandinavian school teaching method
Keeping reading I became aware that the school system we know is not only the worst but it's just one of the hundreds of different better school methods that have been proposed by teachers and psychologists
This method for example showed that you don't need to be born as a genius or with a higher IQ, you IQ become higher as a result of the instruction you're given and of the experience you do each do
There were so much differences from the stardard school system and this one that I wouldn't know where to begin
But the most important thing in this method is that kids are not passively learning information without knowing their utiliity
The kids in this methods where explained what they were going to learn at the end of the year and why and which kind of path they were going to take to reach that objective and eventually every kid was allowed to follow his own path by its inclination (one kid may learn better verbal information, other may learn better visual information and so on)
Bottom line: at the end of the third year those kids (starting at 6) were already at a secondary school level, their deductive potential was higher than many college kids and they also learned many languages, plus many artistic matters like sculpture, equilibrism and acting
A lot of thing in the school and the way teachers interracted with the kids was studied according to notion about learning that have been known for years but that have been ignored by the capitalistic schools

The problem is always the same
School is becoming more and more useless, in fact it is becoming dangerous as not only it teaches nothing in a lot of time but also it destroy any right side of the brain functon and anything that it's not computistic
The fact that it seems to become more advantage (kids on the primary already learning algebra) is just a deception
Kids are given more and more sterile notions while their intelligence is potential is more and more suppresed, and on the other hand kids are less and less motivated to learn this notions and they're not given the tools to
I've seens a lot of home-schooled kids that are ten times more intelligent and knowledgeable than their school-attending peers
So, school is baically useless right now

The point is that only private school are allowed to use different school method derived from studies about breain learning or teaching esperiences
But private school are expensive
So it's always the same story
In the capitalistic society if you're average you'd better become another piece of the capitalistc puzzle: a dead puppet working like a beast to earn money to spend so that these money increses the economics
If you're rich you may even allowed to attend a private school and find a better teaching method, but chances are that you will  be captured by the capitalistic web sooner or later
It's not about intelligence and potential, it's all about money
When we are born, we all are potentia genius
No one was born with an higher IQ or a better mind

By the way, if you look ay geniuses of the past (but what is a genius after all if not just a normal higher-average resulted from suppressing the kids world intelligency?)  you will see that a lot of them didn't never attend schools or they were considered terrible stupid students

You can't tell a genius just be looking at his age and how knowledgeable he is
This is a cartoon cliche
Genius are rarely knowledgeable in everything
They usually have a field in which they have a better understanding but nothing clear or clamorous
Many geniuses of the past where just average kids and not super kids resolving unsolved theoremus when they're 6 years old

Daniel

[ChristmasCarol]

School is not designed to teach young people how to reason, how to make deduction and solve probalems with logic

It is intended to suppress anything within the kid mind that is atemporal, instinctive, imaginary, analogic, global, concrete with counterparts that are symbolic, computistic, linear, temporal, verbal

But the most important thing in this method is that kids are not passively learning information without knowing their utiliity
The problem is always the same

Kids are given more and more sterile notions while their intelligence is potential is more and more suppresed, and on the other hand kids are less and less motivated to learn this notions and they're not given the tools to
I've seens a lot of home-schooled kids that are ten times more intelligent and knowledgeable than their school-attending peers

The point is that only private school are allowed to use different school method derived from studies about breain learning or teaching esperiences
But private school are expensive

Daniel

Hey Daniel,
Have you heard of Sudbury Valley School?  I agree with you.  The so-called modern school system is 100 years old.  Information and textbooks and classroom instruction are largely irrelevant to today's life.  Sudbury Model schools are affordable, a true democracy and do none of the damage you describe.  I raised my three children in this school.  In fact, they made a video called "they have to call it school" .  That's because it doesn't look anything like the traditional system most children are stuck in . The school is run democratically.  Students and staff have the same rights as to determining school policy.  They govern themselves.  There is no curriculum, grades, or program driven by a staff that indicates what a student should learn.  The student pursues their interests.  Interestingly enough many of them become good musicians.   My oldest son learned to read when he was thirteen.  He later learned to read and write Japanese and went to Japan to teach English.  He is an excellent writer, speaker, and now a chiropractor.   I could go on an on.  Suffice it to say my children are self-motivated, creative, confident, responsible human beings.  I am now a trustee at this school.  All three of my children have graduated from there.  But I believe passionately in the need for new education models.  There have been schools of this type started all over the world.

I had a six year old look at me incredulous once, because I said, we could skip a page in a beginner's lesson book if he didn't care for it.  He said, "Are you sure?".   I assure my students there are no music police.  A lot of my time in lessons is spent re-creating an environment in their minds for experimentation, individual expression, and well, the courage to be themselves.

We must unleash the powerful energy and creativity in this world with teaching that is expansive, empowering and ever-adapting to the changes in our everyday lives.

[Daniel_piano]

School is not designed to teach young people how to reason, how to make deduction and solve probalems with logic

It is intended to suppress anything within the kid mind that is atemporal, instinctive, imaginary, analogic, global, concrete with counterparts that are symbolic, computistic, linear, temporal, verbal

But the most important thing in this method is that kids are not passively learning information without knowing their utiliity
The problem is always the same

Kids are given more and more sterile notions while their intelligence is potential is more and more suppresed, and on the other hand kids are less and less motivated to learn this notions and they're not given the tools to
I've seens a lot of home-schooled kids that are ten times more intelligent and knowledgeable than their school-attending peers

The point is that only private school are allowed to use different school method derived from studies about breain learning or teaching esperiences
But private school are expensive

Daniel

Hey Daniel,
Have you heard of Sudbury Valley School?  I agree with you.  The so-called modern school system is 100 years old.  Information and textbooks and classroom instruction are largely irrelevant to today's life.  Sudbury Model schools are affordable, a true democracy and do none of the damage you describe.  I raised my three children in this school.  In fact, they made a video called "they have to call it school" .  That's because it doesn't look anything like the traditional system most children are stuck in . The school is run democratically.  Students and staff have the same rights as to determining school policy.  They govern themselves.  There is no curriculum, grades, or program driven by a staff that indicates what a student should learn.  The student pursues their interests.  Interestingly enough many of them become good musicians.   My oldest son learned to read when he was thirteen.  He later learned to read and write Japanese and went to Japan to teach English.  He is an excellent writer, speaker, and now a chiropractor.   I could go on an on.  Suffice it to say my children are self-motivated, creative, confident, responsible human beings.  I am now a trustee at this school.  All three of my children have graduated from there.  But I believe passionately in the need for new education models.  There have been schools of this type started all over the world.

I had a six year old look at me incredulous once, because I said, we could skip a page in a beginner's lesson book if he didn't care for it.  He said, "Are you sure?".   I assure my students there are no music police.  A lot of my time in lessons is spent re-creating an environment in their minds for experimentation, individual expression, and well, the courage to be themselves.

We must unleash the powerful energy and creativity in this world with teaching that is expansive, empowering and ever-adapting to the changes in our everyday lives.

That sounds fantastic
Now, the school your lucky kids attended sounds like the one I talked about
For example there were no grades on that school and the kids had the same decisional power of teachers
At the begin of the year they were told what the target would have been and if they agreed, that being said the kids were completely free to organize their path to reach that goal at the end of the year
In fact, at each lessons they were allowed to choose what to study that day
Another thing that I found very interesting was that there were not every matters each day
They had 2 weeks of just history, two weeks of just language, two weeks of just geography and so on
They learned at an unbelievable speed and had a profound emotional connection with the teacher
The teacher had not a bigger desk in fron of the class, but seated in a small desk among the other kids and it, in the afternoon, would visit all the kids in their homes to help them on studying problems
There were far less lesson hours and a lot more free time after school and yet they learned tree times faster than stardard school kids

Where can I find more information on the Sudbury?
I know about the headstart schools and some progressive school on Scandinavia
There were for example this study at Oslo where they tried to substitute all the square desks, chairs and chalkboards of the classrooms with rounded ones
The kids progress was remarked as extraordinary during that period
It is widely known that round figures stimulate the right side of the brain allowing the mind to solve problems first using deductive logic
Also, they would motivate kids on appreciating what they're learning while square, sad, uncoloured school put on halt on kids motivation
The reason seem to be on the connection between oxygenation and outdoor
Nature is full of color and there's not even a square figure
By simulating nature graphic charactristic of outside in the inside the brain feels like it is getting more oxygenation
There's also a good kindergarden with a new school system where children are free to move in all the classes they want and instead of walls there are glass panels so they can see what other kids are doing
In fact, instead of a school it is seen as a city by the children, where they can visit the place they like most, the people they like most and take important decision
Seeing as how immature grown ups can be (wars, fights, criminali acts...) I think children are tired of being considered less able than what they are
Not only many time they're more intelligent and deductive than grown ups but they're completely able to organize, manage and be partecipant on important decision (I think it's a crime that some parents choose where to pass their vacation without consulting their children)

So I think that the most important thing for an effective school and teaching is giving desicional power to children, teachers shouldn't be the untoucheable nolier-than-thou gods, they should always discuss their decisions with kids and never take advantage of their power (that ihmo they shouldn't posses)

Learning was never supposed to be boring, unfunny, uncreative, strict, rigid, harsh, severe, it should be a joy: the game of life
Does anyone notice how children are happy to pretending that they're working?
Play "the supermarket", the "photograph", the "driver" and so on...
Yet, when they grow up working becomes a torture thoughts, something that we would all live better if it were non-existant
And they are right, but not about job per se but about the way the society deal with it
Working was never supposed to be boring, unfunny, uncreative, strict, rigid, harsh or severe
Just look at children and how happy might be to work with a different attitude, a different goal in a less capitalistic society?
Everything is ruined from its essential instinctive and natural character
Teaching and learning was also ruined by academic snobbism, something so absurd and ridicolous (actually that's how academic snobs appears even though they believe they're gods on earth) that it makes me mad anytime I think about it

The good new is that things are changing, at least people are becoming more aware of how things works and I see (despite the sad facts we're about every day, especially in politics) that the more and more people are becoming liberal and there are more project to rebuild the humanness of society way to deal with life and our planet

Daniel

[ChristmasCarol]

Go to www.sudval.org.  One of the forms parents and children sign at the beginning of each year is a form stating that the child may leave campus when they choose.  School is not supposed to be a jail.  The Sudbury school looks more like a beehive than a school.  Children are everywhere, interacting amongst all ages, planning, creating, playing, reading, jumping, climbing an enormous beech tree.  There are very few classes as you describe them.  Learning is happening with living, not sitting and digesting someone else's ideas.  The first thing I noticed when I went there is that the students looked me straight in the eye.  I asked a twelve or so year old where the office is. She said, "I'll take you."  In that moment I knew she felt ownership of the place, didn't fear unnecessary contact with the staff, or me an adult stranger.  When i walk into a traditional school, kids avoid looking at me, don't interact, etc.  Every student must present a thesis defense to graduate.  It is a representation of what they learned there, how and why, and what they plan to do when they graduate.  The school then votes on whether or not they feel the student is ready.  Kind of like every child is a valedictorian.  What I especially love is that no two are alike.