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Topic: learning pieces faster  (Read 3848 times)

Offline idobs

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learning pieces faster
on: December 27, 2013, 12:55:20 PM
Hello I'm 21 y/o and I've been playing piano for nearly 3 years I started out by learning from the internet and by myself for about half a year and then with a teacher for about another half a year until I didn't have time and couldn't go to a teacher anymore.

Anyway my problem is this, I've started out learning harder pieces(the hardest one I tried is Kyle Landry's arraignment to "a whole new world") and managed to play them but it takes me months to learn one page until I reach a point where I get tiered with it and stumble upon another piece and wan't to learn it. This keeps happening and whenever I sit by the piano I usually just play songs(or to be precise parts of songs) I already know.

I really want to improve and be able to learn songs faster so I don't get sick of them and not finish them so I want to learn how to play from sight because maybe it will help me learn pieces faster I guess I'll start from easy songs can anybody recommend a plan or program or technique to play from sight I don't really know where to start.
thanks.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #1 on: December 27, 2013, 01:10:56 PM
Learn to play all major and minor scales without looking at your hands. Also develop the ability to play cadences in all key signatures, major and minor, again, without looking down at your hands.
When you have accomplished this, send me a private message, and I will instruct you further.

 :)

Offline pianoplayer51

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #2 on: December 28, 2013, 11:50:34 AM
Learn to play all major and minor scales without looking at your hands. Also develop the ability to play cadences in all key signatures, major and minor, again, without looking down at your hands.
When you have accomplished this, send me a private message, and I will instruct you further.

 :)

What are candeces?  I have been having piano lessons for 8 years and my teacher has never told me about candeces unless we have been doing them but calling them a different name.  Now that I have come across them on here, when I go back to my lessons after the holidays I am going to ask my teacher about them and if they are relevant to what I do because I take exams and in the exam books we have to do scales and arpeggios etc and broken chords but there is absoutely NO mention of candeces and my teacher has never mentioned them so I had no idea about them before reading about them here.    

Perhaps candeces are for more advanced exams so my teacher did not want to overload me with stuff too advanced?   I am doing Grade 4 exam and perhaps candeces will be introduced on the higher exams who knows but if candeces are an important part of piano technology why am I not being taught to play them now?    The people who write the piano exams must know what they are doing and so if candeces are not introduced as part of the exam syllabus for the exams I have done and am currently doing, then candeces are not something that is compulsory to learn???

Offline peanutbutter

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #3 on: December 28, 2013, 04:48:23 PM
Hi, I'm 20 and have been playing for about 4 years, also by myself. I also started with difficult pieces and it took at least a month of serious effort to finish. When I had lessons with a teacher months ago, he said my playing was "without feeling" and seemed to lack proper timing. I figured this was a result of always playing alone and immediately jumping to pieces too much for me to handle. There simply wasn't enough 'room' in my head, you know with a lot of stuff to keep in mind like key signature, time signature, dynamics, phrasing etc... The interesting thing was, when I was having lessons... In a span of 6 weeks I was able to learn 5 short pieces, including a full clementi sonatina, several pieces from the book of anna magdalena bach, and a number of short technical exercises! Even I was surprised.

I read about a topic like this with the great Bernhard in pianostreet :) the thread said that it was better to start learning 3-4 pieces all at the same time today and practice them all again the next day and continue until they are finished, rather than focus singly on one piece and practice that every day. If I remember correctly, the first 15 or 20 minutes of practice time is the most crucial. The info you get from these first golden minutes you remember, the rest just doesn't.. stick to your head anymore. Also it said that three 20-minute sessions a day was way better than an hour everyday. And that sleep in between practices was important to let the piece and other technical matters sink in, and you get to grasp them more firmly.

When I asked my teacher how I could improve, or learn things faster, he said that I just had to keep practicing sight reading and be comfortable with the printed page. I guess the important thing to do is to practice the right pieces, or pieces fit for your current level of skill. Practice them slowly, get everything right the first time and bring it up to tempo. Of course, you should never forget your scales. You may start with C, G, and F major. Practice hands separate, hands together then hands separate again. The pieces he recommended me were those from First Lessons in Bach, Clementi's sonatinas, Bella Bartok's series, Short Preludes and Fugues by Bach and Czerny etudes.

Offline idobs

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 08:49:27 PM
So you say I should study 3 pieces at the same time and dedicate about 15-20 minuets a day to each? How do I know if they're too hard? Should I try to play them as fast as I can from sight or should I learn slowly and it will improve my sight learning as well? Can I do it myself or do I need a teacher? Are there any specific pieces you can recommend and do you have a link to the thread you were talking about? Thanks for the help.

Offline peanutbutter

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 07:44:21 AM
DISCLAIMER: I am not a licensed piano/music teacher. Please don't take my words as solid instruction. These are just advice I could give based from my little experience.
Insert Quote
So you say I should study 3 pieces at the same time and dedicate about 15-20 minuets a day to each?
--> yes, my 1 hour practice sessions with my teacher consisted of mostly that + warm up with scales and 'a dozen a day' exercises.

 How do I know if they're too hard?
--> My teacher said that the right difficulty of a piece is when you can sight read it the first time, playing slowly and making few errors. I do not know how to judge what he meant by "few"...

 Should I try to play them as fast as I can from sight or should I learn slowly and it will improve my sight learning as well?
--> Play slowly first. What works for me is practicing each hand separately if hands together is too difficult. Hands separate slowly at first and gradually up to tempo. Then hands together slowly then gradually increase speed.

Can I do it myself or do I need a teacher?
--> It is always better to have a teacher that way he/she can readily correct your mistakes once you make them, before they lead to bad habits, or worse, irreversible ones. Also, your teacher could select the pieces just right for you and give instruction tailored to your needs. Plus, from experience, my repertoire grew exponentially with a teacher. He was also able to improve my wrist action that way they are not stiff and can better bring out the sound that suits the piece. The pieces I played with him also sounded better than the pieces I played on my own. I have recordings. When he demonstrates I also could understand more clearly what words of advice actually mean. It is our most primitve way of learning, the whole "monkey see monkey do" thing... Right now, I'm in the middle of my semester, studying things entirely different from music, so no time for piano lessons. I asked advice from him about what I could do to maintain my current skill level and he said that I just continue sight reading where we left off, as we have not finished the first lessons in bach and the sonatinas... I plan to take lessons with him again the moment I can when the semester and internships are over.

Are there any specific pieces you can recommend and do you have a link to the thread you were talking about?
-->Specific pieces... Hmm... I'm sorry I think I may do more harm if I suggest a piece too difficult. What other pieces do you play besides "A whole new world"? Do you like classical music? One of the first pieces I played was Bach's minuet in G. It is the first from first lessons in bach. The one that goes dun pa-ra-ra-ra-ram dat dat, hope you understood that, haha! Or maybe Schumann's Album for the young?

Anyway, I rephrased your question to "what is the most efficient practice session?" so you don't waste time practicing and in the long run you learn much with littlest time spent. This wasn't the exact thread I found ( I couldn't find it :/ ) but I think you'll like reading it. It goes along the lines of what I was saying.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4689.msg44184.html
Or this...
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4710.msg44538.html


Thanks for the help.
-->Sure! I know it can be really frustrating if a piece takes too long with little results... Wish you all the best!

Offline pianoman53

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 08:05:29 AM
It very much depends on what person you are. I, for example, rather study one piece for an hour, than 3 pieces for 20 minutes each.
There are some tricks, like learning all scales fluently, being a good sight reader, analyze the harmonical structure, etc.

However, these are just tricks. It might help a little, but you certainly don't need it.

What you have to do, is to figure out why it takes time.
Is it a memory thing? Is it a technical thing? Is it because you practice in the wrong way, or not enough?


But to not sound like a bad teacher, who's sick of giving advice, I'll try to help you.

First read the music, and get a picture in your head on how you want it to sound. This you have to try a bit - I noticed that some music benefits from an actual picture, while some needs a more direct sound image.

You split this up into very small parts - one phrase at the time or so. And you do the same thing; try to imagine how you want it to sound. Then you spend no more than 5-10 minutes on trying to make the imagination into reality. If it doesn't work the first few times, figure out how to do it, technically, and then come back to the sound.

Try to not get stuck in too small parts too much.


You know that they are too difficult, if you see that they are much more difficult than what you've done before. Sometimes you'll have to try. Though, try to not go into a negative mindset before starting. That makes it insanely difficult.
I don't quite agree with this "if you're able to sight read it" sort of idea, because that would suggest that your sight reading skill is at the same level as your playing skill, which is false is most cases. It would also make more Beethoven sonatas easier than most things by Liszt and Chopin.

The point of fast and slow is, you should know why you do it. If you play slowly because you don't know it yet, or if you do it to memorize, or to hear all the harmony, or if you take it to an extreme for musical reasons, for technical reasons... There isn't just One type of slow practicing.

Some teachers are completely worthless, and you'd be better of without them, but it's, in general, better to have a teacher.

Offline rmbarbosa

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #7 on: December 31, 2013, 05:45:41 PM
When I was young, I used to learn as Lechtiwsky teached: 1. - Look to the score and to make an idea of how the music must sound; 2 - Listen great pianists playing that musice; 3 - Play one bar (or one musical phrase) and repeat it untill I could play it well; then, the next bar; then the first and the second bar; then the 3ª; then, 1º, 2º 3º and so on...
This method is very good namely with Bach. It`s an "aditive" method and, when we finish, we can write by memory (and play, of course) all the piece at the speed we wish.
For ex: the 3ª mouvement of Beethoven moonlight is very difficult. But if we practice bar-to-bar, 20 or 25 x each bar (1º bar-20 times; 2º bar - 20 times, 1º+2º bar -20 times; 3º bar - 20 times... it turns incredibly easy, even very fast. But each bar must be learned and played without technical mistakes and with great care.
Best wishes
rui

Offline bronnestam

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #8 on: January 01, 2014, 08:56:50 PM
Even though I don't question the effectiveness of this method, I also must warn anyone who tries to learn a very demanding piece like Moonlight III too early: the intense repetition of the same phrase/bar over and over again can lead to serious injuries. So, if you cannot master a certain section after a reasonable number of repetitions, it is wise to put it aside for a while and practice other things that will improve your experience and technique.

I mean, everyone can probably learn to play anything if they are just stubborn enough and have enough stamina, but what if you pay the price of getting tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome and various inflammations in your muscles? That could, in worst case, ruin your whole future as a pianist.

I suggest that you mix new pieces with old ones that you can play with ease. Start every session with the "new" project - and end the session the same way, with a VERY SLOW run through that new piece, or a part of that piece. Try to play it perfectly - if you cannot, you must play even slower. Let the memory of that "perfect" run-through be what you take with you when you leave the piano, and so it will be there next time you return.

I assume you can read music - OK, then read the music. Read the music a lot of times before you even go to the piano and try to play for the first time. Imagine the keyboard while you read, image yourself playing, and plan how you will move your fingers. This preparation job is not very fun, but it pays off.  You can tap your fingers against a hard surface so that you get a good idea of the rythm. This will improve your sight-reading as well.

If the piece is not very easy, you must start playing, for real, with hands separated. If you cannot play a section fast and flawlessly with ONE hand, you will not do it better with two! This might also seem tedious and time-consuming, but at the end you will see that you learned faster this way.

Offline pianoplayer51

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #9 on: January 01, 2014, 09:04:13 PM
Why would someone want to learn pieces faster unless they are learning for an exam and time is running out and they have have their exam pieces perfected in time to sit the exam.

If you are not sitting an exam that means you can take as long as you want to learn a piece.

I am doing an exam. I went out for new years eve and today I am very tired.   My plan was to get on the piano and do some exam study but  I  simply did not have the mental or physical energy.  I am going to do an hour now after I have finished writing this post.     It is 9pm here where I am so I can only do an hour or two but my original plan was to do little bits right throughout the day.... you know, do half hour then take a break, then go back and do another half hour, so actually I would end up doing a lot of half hour slots from early afternoon to evening with breaks in between but sadly that did not happen.

Right... off to play now.......   au revour   (I am not French by the way lol)

Offline pianoplayer51

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #10 on: January 01, 2014, 09:07:37 PM
Even though I don't question the effectiveness of this method, I also must warn anyone who tries to learn a very demanding piece like Moonlight III too early: the intense repetition of the same phrase/bar over and over again can lead to serious injuries. So, if you cannot master a certain section after a reasonable number of repetitions, it is wise to put it aside for a while and practice other things that will improve your experience and technique.

I mean, everyone can probably learn to play anything if they are just stubborn enough and have enough stamina, but what if you pay the price of getting tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome and various inflammations in your muscles? That could, in worst case, ruin your whole future as a pianist.

I suggest that you mix new pieces with old ones that you can play with ease. Start every session with the "new" project - and end the session the same way, with a VERY SLOW run through that new piece, or a part of that piece. Try to play it perfectly - if you cannot, you must play even slower. Let the memory of that "perfect" run-through be what you take with you when you leave the piano, and so it will be there next time you return.

I assume you can read music - OK, then read the music. Read the music a lot of times before you even go to the piano and try to play for the first time. Imagine the keyboard while you read, image yourself playing, and plan how you will move your fingers. This preparation job is not very fun, but it pays off.  You can tap your fingers against a hard surface so that you get a good idea of the rythm. This will improve your sight-reading as well.

If the piece is not very easy, you must start playing, for real, with hands separated. If you cannot play a section fast and flawlessly with ONE hand, you will not do it better with two! This might also seem tedious and time-consuming, but at the end you will see that you learned faster this way.

How do professional pianists who play extremely hard pieces manage to learn them without getting tendonitis?   And by professional pianists I mean those good enough to play at the Proms

Offline bronnestam

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #11 on: January 02, 2014, 05:05:06 PM
They build up strength and technique during a long period of practicing. "Building up" is the keyword here. As everybody knows, you often use unnecessary muscle tension and movements when you do something you are not used to - for example, when you as a beginner start to play pieces that are far too difficult for your level. A more experienced and trained pianist will play in a more relaxed and effective way, thus avoiding fatigue.

 

Offline pianoplayer51

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #12 on: January 03, 2014, 12:36:15 AM
They build up strength and technique during a long period of practicing. "Building up" is the keyword here. As everybody knows, you often use unnecessary muscle tension and movements when you do something you are not used to - for example, when you as a beginner start to play pieces that are far too difficult for your level. A more experienced and trained pianist will play in a more relaxed and effective way, thus avoiding fatigue.

 

I never play things too difficult or above my abilities.

Offline gore234

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #13 on: January 03, 2014, 10:24:15 AM
What are candeces?  I have been having piano lessons for 8 years and my teacher has never told me about candeces unless we have been doing them but calling them a different name.  Now that I have come across them on here, when I go back to my lessons after the holidays I am going to ask my teacher about them and if they are relevant to what I do because I take exams and in the exam books we have to do scales and arpeggios etc and broken chords but there is absoutely NO mention of candeces and my teacher has never mentioned them so I had no idea about them before reading about them here.    

Perhaps candeces are for more advanced exams so my teacher did not want to overload me with stuff too advanced?   I am doing Grade 4 exam and perhaps candeces will be introduced on the higher exams who knows but if candeces are an important part of piano technology why am I not being taught to play them now?    The people who write the piano exams must know what they are doing and so if candeces are not introduced as part of the exam syllabus for the exams I have done and am currently doing, then candeces are not something that is compulsory to learn???
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_(music)
from Wikipedia:
In Western musical theory, a cadence (Latin cadentia, "a falling") is, "a melodic or harmonic configuration that creates a sense of repose or resolution [finality or pause]."[1] A harmonic cadence is a progression of (at least) two chords that concludes a phrase, section, or piece of music.[2] A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern that indicates the end of a phrase.[3] Cadences give phrases a distinctive ending that can, for example, indicate whether the piece is to continue or has concluded. An analogy may be made with punctuation.[4] Weaker cadences act as "commas" that indicate a pause or momentary rest, while a stronger cadence acts as a "period" that signals the end of the phrase or sentence. A cadence is labeled more or less "weak" or "strong" depending on its sense of finality. While cadences are usually classified by specific chord or melodic progressions, the use of such progressions does not necessarily constitute a cadence—there must be a sense of closure, as at the end of a phrase. Harmonic rhythm plays an important part in determining where a cadence occurs.

Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece.

Cadences are divided into four types according to their harmonic progression: authentic, plagal, half, and deceptive.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: learning pieces faster
Reply #14 on: January 03, 2014, 11:19:15 AM
thanks, gore234!  :)
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