muscle memory vs REAL learning a piece

[outin]

does that mean you have to know/remember each single note and being able to "speak" them like if it were a poetry by heart? like "G B F D C ....etc etc"?

When memorizing texts, one does not memorize every letter, one memorizes words and phrases. It's the same with music, you have to group the notes to words and centences, otherwise it's impossible to memorize it all. What is called muscle memory is needed to take care of the individual notes and physical movements but in the mind memory has to handle music as larger units. It simply takes far too long to memorize every single note consciously and retrieve them all individually while playing. Of course when you really know a piece you can write it down by breaking up the groups again. Just like you would be able to write the words you have memorized.

[stefo78]

Lorcar : could you try, for an easy piece, to memorize it via mental playing (visualising your hands on the keyboard) ?
I think you'll clearly see that's better than rely only on your muscle memory.

[bronnestam]

I have another little comment about memorization. I think it is very good to memorize the piece because then you will probably play it better. I, who never learned the art of memorization when I was younger, have very, very often been quite embarrassed when I have encountered a piano somewhere. I want to play. People around me ask if there is anyone who can play ...? And I must say no, because I don't have the scores with me ... and without them I am totally lost, I can play half of Für Elise or something, and no more. So I'm working on changing this now.

So - there are two very good reasons to memorize pieces! But there is another one, which I find just stupid. That is when memorization takes place for the sake of memorization, because you are not considered "good" if you don't play everything by heart. Or something. In the days of Beethoven and Mozart, there was no shame in playing after notes! And I just wonder, if you are to perform with a piece which you think you have memorized very well, but you still fear that you will get a blackout - why not just bring the scores with you and have them there as a life-line, even if you probably will not need them?
I don't know what rules in competitions and graduations say, as I have never participated in such activities. But IF they say that you must play totally by heart, then I think it is utterly stupid. The audience is there for the music, not for the memory skills.

So I want to memorize so that I can play spontaneously at informal events, and also learn the pieces thoroughly, but when I am to participate in my teacher's student recital in one month or two, I will most definitely play with the score in front of me, no matter what! I will be nervous as h*ll anyway ...

[timothy42b]

What about listening to it as a strategy?

When you know what it sounds like, all the way through, you shouldn't get lost.  And if need be you can play by ear, or even fake parts of it. 

[liszt85]

When memorizing texts, one does not memorize every letter, one memorizes words and phrases. It's the same with music, you have to group the notes to words and centences, otherwise it's impossible to memorize it all. What is called muscle memory is needed to take care of the individual notes and physical movements but in the mind memory has to handle music as larger units. It simply takes far too long to memorize every single note consciously and retrieve them all individually while playing. Of course when you really know a piece you can write it down by breaking up the groups again. Just like you would be able to write the words you have memorized.

Now, this makes sense and this is why one must know music theory (just as one must have a decent vocabulary to be able to memorize text, if not, it would be like trying to memorize text in a foreign language).

[outin]

Now, this makes sense and this is why one must know music theory (just as one must have a decent vocabulary to be able to memorize text, if not, it would be like trying to memorize text in a foreign language).

True, but I think I would rather compare theory to grammar, everyone needs some of it, but the more you know the better you can use the language. To a certain level one can do with quite little. Learning vocabulary does not require in depth knowledge of grammar. This would be like learning to play motives but not really understanding their meaning for the whole or how they are constructed.

It's surprising how many people have learned to play rather well with very little understanding of theory (they know less than I do and still play more difficult music). I think it's a skill to be able to memorize things easily without understading anything about them, I do not possess that skill unfortunately 

[liszt85]

True, but I think I would rather compare theory to grammar, everyone needs some of it, but the more you know the better you can use the language. To a certain level one can do with quite little. Learning vocabulary does not require in depth knowledge of grammar. This would be like learning to play motives but not really understanding their meaning for the whole or how they are constructed.

It's surprising how many people have learned to play rather well with very little understanding of theory (they know less than I do and still play more difficult music). I think it's a skill to be able to memorize things easily without understading anything about them, I do not possess that skill unfortunately 

I myself play advanced piano rep without solid understanding of theory (and without analyzing my rep in detail). However, I guarantee you that I can't advance beyond a certain point with that strategy. That is why you will not find a SINGLE pianist at the highest level who does that.

[outin]

I myself play advanced piano rep without solid understanding of theory (and without analyzing my rep in detail). However, I guarantee you that I can't advance beyond a certain point with that strategy. That is why you will not find a SINGLE pianist at the highest level who does that.

Yes, that's what I meant with "to a certain level". Most people do not even want or need to go beyond that. Those who do have to work on the theory at some point. I prefer to take it in small doses, when it's somehow connected to what I do in practice. I have read through theory books on many occasions, but remember little about it. I remember things better when I figure them out myself.
Unfortunately the concepts in music theory are not always very logical, so I find some things difficult to keep in my head.

[lorcar]

popping up this old thread I had started time ago...

I am done learning a Bach prelude and willing to start the Invention 13 bwv 784 (a minor) on my own, at a slow piece.  I read Chang advice to memorize bar by bar, then I read Bachscholar who says that memorizing is useful only once you are at a certain level... But I feel that being able to get rid of sheet would allow me to better focus on my hands and fingers, so avoiding those silly mistakes I do even when I feel I can say I do know a piece.
When I am done learning a piece, I can say my muscle memory plays big part of it and the sheet helps a lot. If sheet isn't there, at a first minimal uncertainty I am lost, I do not know how to start again. It's just body memory. There are pieces I can completely play without score, but if you ask me to sing the notes I would go speechless. I know the melody, if I force myself and think at my hands I might also be able to figure out the notes, but I am not able to sing the piece as if it were a poetry.

In the other thread, I read Dr Chang writing "memorizing a bar is trivial and if you need to repeat that bar many times, memory is automatic, effortless"

But to me this is just muscle memory, isn't? or do you mean memorizing the single notes in a way to be able to sing them?
Also I read "always memorize first, then practice only from memory"
But how to memorize? singing? is there any technique in particular?

[lostinidlewonder]

I feel three types of memory which are called numerous of things by different people. Conscious memory is your reading and analysis skills not only of the score but what patterns you see in the hands. Actions which section up your music and make the notes visually tell you more (eg: highlighting, colouring, shapes, symbols etc) all assist in conscious memory. As your conscious memory improves you will find muscular memory take over and you don't need to think as much to produce a movement. If you forget a muscular movement an effective practioner will recall their conscious observations. Sight readers find they don't need to process as much info on the page but still require the sheets to cue movements, here you notice there is very little separation between muscular memory and reading, they certainly work together and are not simply apart.

Sound memory or what you hear from within, you can only develop this through listening experience, a music critic who doesn't play an instrument can have this sound memory within their minds and pass judgement on performances the is because they have had much listening experience they can compare to which has shaped their particular "taste" for music. The application of sound memory to your playing can only be fully appreciated by playing and learning to listen to yourself while playing.

There is generally no need to be aware of every single note individually. If I play a C major chord I certainly do not consider CEG I will consider the inversion of the C but because I've done them so often they mearly are single point observations and the difference in intervals are a non issue I know the feeling of all sorts of chords just by touch so when seeing it in the score my hand reacts immediately or if I hear it in my head my hands also can adjust accordingly. If you have less experience you have to be consciously aware of more to begin with and too often people set themselves up with too many conscious observations required and thus a snails pace in progress is set. Brute force repetition until you get something is mind numbing and mindless IMHO. It is the sign of a bad teacher who says things should be automatic or found through x repetitions, you need to build up your skills progressively as well and not just think that everything need be a Mount Everest of work.

[lorcar]

Thanks a lot
I agree with all you wrote, but therefore it seems you talk about memories which belong to someone who is not a beginner, and had already some experience.

Reading Chang he says that memorizing the first few bars of bach invention should take few minutes. I have been playing the first few bars for the last couple of days, therefore I have developed some hand memory, and obviously I know the melody and can sing it,  but if you ask me  to "speak the notes" I don't  know,  almost any. The conscious memory tells me I should get a higher tune, therefore move my hand to the right,  my hands memory confirms I should go right, but without memorizing the exact key  I should hit,  i feel I  can make a mistake  and go up one or two  or three notes, simply because my conscious memory is not backed by a perfect pitch and I don't know which is the right interval I heart in my head...

[outin]

Reading Chang he says that memorizing the first few bars of bach invention should take few minutes.

Mr. Chang can say what he likes, but I certainly cannot memorize anything no matter how short in just a few minutes. I need to come back to things several times during at least 3-4 days before they are even remotely memorized ín a way that they can actually be reproduced. And still the memory recall process will be very error prone.

This is something where people differ greatly, lucky those who have that sort of ability...

[lostinidlewonder]

... it seems you talk about memories which belong to someone who is not a beginner, and had already some experience.

It applies to beginners in a simpler manner though you'd build their experience base with much easier issues such as learning pieces for example with finger combinations within a small unmoving position.

Reading Chang he says that memorizing the first few bars of bach invention should take few minutes.

I think this is a rather superficial statement if he did say it. Trying to study part playing with brute force memory IMHO is the wrong way to go about it all, one would rather learn the movements and investigate simpler patterns with easier pieces so that when they learn the inventions they absorb it more as a whole rather than being caught up over single note instances. A beginner may take weeks to learn a few bars if at all where someone with applicable experience could produce it immediately without effort trough reading/memory work.

I have been playing the first few bars for the last couple of days, therefore I have developed some hand memory, and obviously I know the melody and can sing it,  but if you ask me  to "speak the notes" I don't  know,  almost any.

Do you mean like reciting the actual notes you play by verbal letters or solfeg? I don't think that is necessary at all myself, there are however particular notes which can be important to position your hand with, it's ok to consider these singular instances because it controls a whole.

The conscious memory tells me I should get a higher tune, therefore move my hand to the right,  my hands memory confirms I should go right, but without memorizing the exact key  I should hit,  i feel I  can make a mistake  and go up one or two  or three notes, simply because my conscious memory is not backed by a perfect pitch and I don't know which is the right interval I heart in my head...

I think you might have mixed "conscious memory" with the "sound memory" you have in your head at the start here. If you indeed reevaluate your conscious memory of a passage you will hit the correct notes with more confidence. Your conscious memory should consider the whole positions (not single note instances in isolation of the group) or coordination of the part playing in a logic that relates to your past experience or understanding of procedure itself. Considering patterns such as what finger combinations come together, what notes are interacting, what shapes do the notes create on the whole hand etc, these conscious observations verbalised consisely can help a great deal.

[xdjuicebox]

You will need SOME degree of muscle memory, whether that memory is from playing scales/arps/your actual piece or whatever. But alone, muscle memory is danger. It needs to be reinforced with memory [usually music], or in my case, music and theory.

If you can name every chord you're playing, and see the relationships [for example, every time I see the circle in 5ths, I'm just like oh this is just this pattern through the circle of 5ths], you can memorize a LOT of music in a very short amount of time. For example, Liebestraume No. 3 is a really good example of this; in the B major to E major section, if you see the pattern, it's literally so easy to memorize. Just remember the shape, and how it goes B - D#7/A# - D#m7b5/A - G#7 - C#9 - F#13, or for hte E major part, E - G#7/D# - G#m7b5/D - C#7 - F#9 - B13

Which is really the same chord progression [it's the same in the Ab parts too], so I remembered three different sections.

Also study the form of the piece, that's important

You should be able to, without a piano, write down the entire sheet music note for note

[lorcar]

Musicbox, thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately, although I like to think I understood what you wrote in theory, I cannot follow your example, not even looking at the circle of fifths. Could you please detail even more, with no fear to insult  me, as of I were 3y.o.?

Also ,i dint understand how a progression (which can be the same for multiple pieces)  can help you remember the exact notes of each single piece.

[lorcar]

Apologies, I meant juicebox...

[brogers70]

does that mean you have to know/remember each single note and being able to "speak" them like if it were a poetry by heart? like "G B F D C ....etc etc"?

I think what he's saying (and I agree) is that "muscle memory" is a big part of really learning a piece.

[xdjuicebox]

Musicbox, thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately, although I like to think I understood what you wrote in theory, I cannot follow your example, not even looking at the circle of fifths. Could you please detail even more, with no fear to insult  me, as of I were 3y.o.?

Also ,i dint understand how a progression (which can be the same for multiple pieces)  can help you remember the exact notes of each single piece.

Haha anyone who looks down on you for anything is usually just insecure of their own skill, and while I am insecure of my own skill, I will not belittle you XD
Anyway,


I have no formal training in theory, I learned it myself by reading online and my teacher was always like eh you get what I'm talking about so cool. But yeah that's how I think of it and it makes sense to me XD

To learn it, however, I played all of the middle parts as chords. That took me about 15 minutes to do. Then, over the next 2 days, I broke them up to achieve what is written on the score.

Also, if there are no technical difficulties for you, just learn it hands together. Hands separate practice, in my opinion, should only be used to develop technique since it gets confusing if you don't know what the other hand is doing. (If you know, that's perfectly fine; you need to know what the complete harmonies are though). I think hands separate practice can also be used to fix problems that happen when your playing deteriorates [if you play both hands too fast]. For me, I learn hands together but have no trouble playing hands separate if I need to so yeah but idk about anyone else