Bach Invention No. 6 & introducing myself

[Glissando]

Has anyone else played this? It's *not* technically difficult at all, but its giving me fits- the melodic lines are both very strong. I play it 'hands apart' no problem, it's just when I try to put the two parts together that I fall apart.
The piece is driving me crazy! I don't have problems playing any of the other Inventions, it's just this seemingly easy one that I can't play.
Anyone have some advice that might help me?
Anyway-
I'm new here, I'm a HS student and have been playing piano for 8 years. I'm considering studying piano education or performance in college. IF, that is, I can conquer this Invention.
Other pieces I'm working on are Chopin's Nocturne No. 2 in E Flat (Major?), Mozart's Sonata in F Major, and Czerny's Etude No. 34 Op. 299.

[lostinidlewonder]

Bach is always a matter of knowing when to drop the hands and which groups of notes are played with miminal hand movement(fingering choice) . Sometimes both hands present difficulties since the direction of the notes move in many very pianistic hand co-ordinations.

I think this can depress lots of people who master single hands of Bach music and then fail to put it together. Lots of my students who have played a lot of modern music that can be worked single handed very effectively, try to learn Bach the same way, but soon they see it is not the same. Bach is often like both hands playing melodies, weaving in and out and between the left and right hand.

Difficulties always arise as the matter of fingering. Since in all of Bach's music there are so many multiple fingering decisions/opportunities you have to be very confident in which fingers are best for you. I haven't seen as many varitions in fingering in any other composer than I have seen in Bach. It is a real mystery how his music can be played with so many different fingers but there is only really very few which will work for you ultimately. It is a matter of experience. I play lots of Scriabin which is ridiculously hard for pianists to control like Etude Op42no5 and yet I do still find lots of difficulties in Bach! I think Bach and Mozart are seriously underrated in terms of difficulties they pose to pianists. It is *** hard music to play well!! lol.

[jazzyprof]

Before starting to work on this piece I made sure that I could play the E Major scale HT in contrary motion cleanly, securely, and with a singing legato.  I varied the rhythms, worked on a syncopated LH-RH rhythm as in the first motif of the Invention.  Do not rush things.  Can you play the first bar hands together?  Play it several times until it is secure.  Add the second bar. 

Even though both melodic lines are strong as you say, and it is important to hear both as you play, in reality if you were to hum this piece you could only hum one line at time.  So, play the first four bars of the left hand and sing or hum the right hand part.  Pay particular attention to bars three and four where you have different rhythms in the two voices.   Now switch, play the right hand and hum the bottom voice.  When you can do this well, try playing hands together.  If you get into trouble in bars three and four, isolate each bar and try counting carefully. e.g. the four 16th notes in LH against the 8th and 32nd notes in RH.       

[Daniel_piano]

Has anyone else played this? It's *not* technically difficult at all, but its giving me fits- the melodic lines are both very strong. I play it 'hands apart' no problem, it's just when I try to put the two parts together that I fall apart.
The piece is driving me crazy! I don't have problems playing any of the other Inventions, it's just this seemingly easy one that I can't play.
Anyone have some advice that might help me?

Yes, with this invention you have the same problem you will find on bach preludes, i.e. the use of irregular syncopation
So, what helped me a lot when I was studying this piece was tapping the rythm
You should both tap the rhythm and solfege the whole piece: right hand first and then left hand
What you want to achieve is solving all rhythm problems before starting practicing the piece at the piano or it will become a problem if during the practice you have both hard coordination problem plus hard rhythm problems to deal with
When you can tap and solfege the rhythm at high speed you are assured that you have no more rhythm problems

This is an acephalus rythm: the first note of the second bar belongs to the phrase of the previous bar
if you keep this in mind it would be easy to find the musicality of this piece

Then have a look at the tonality: E Major
Before practicing the invention play the E Major scale very well in all its variations

Here's how I solved the coordination problem with this piece
First I isolated a syncopation (RH right hand) in order to learn it perfectly: how the hand moves, how it sounds, how it would coordinate with the left hand

I then learned the major beats (the piece without the "ands") of the RH hands
and the same for LH, alternating hands very often
The I'd tried to play the piece (only the major beats) hand together and I'd mark the bars with had problem that needed to be solved
Whatever problem the hard bars presented I solved it by repeating the marked chunk many time alternating very often the left and the rigth hand and alternating the speed

What I wanted to achieve was to be able to train my hands to hit perfectly at tempo the major beats; in other words I wanted my hands to know where to go next without esitation at the end of a bar

By far I had solved all the rhythm problems and my hands know perfectly the "sleleton" of the piece
So what I did next was to add (hand separates) all the notes I skipped because they were not on the major beats
It should be easy enough to add back the 32th notes, but if you have problems on some specific point, mark that point and devote your practice session to solve the problems with that marked chunks

When eventually perfecting the piece; what I find helps me a lot with Bach music is alternating a bar by bar practice session with a whole piece practice session
When you do a bar by bar practice you play each bar faster than final tempo and do a rest after each bar (or phrase)
During this pause try to concentrate and think of what comes next
When you do a whole piece practice you play the whole piece swowly (in slow motion)

If you have esitation when moving to the next bar, practice by moving fast from bar to bar (train the hand to go move quickly to the next target) but wait few second of the surface of the note, before playing it

If you still have rhythm problems when coordinating the syncompations between each hand divide the higher value note by the lower value note among the two hands
So by diving a 8th note by a 16th note (two 8th notes) you can see where each beat of the lower value note match with the higher value note




Hope this helps a few
Daniel

[Glissando]

Wow, thanks so much ya'll! I printed your replies out and will try all the methods you suggested.

I think Bach and Mozart are seriously underrated in terms of difficulties they pose to pianists.

I agree!

Before starting to work on this piece I made sure that I could play the E Major scale HT in contrary motion cleanly, securely, and with a singing legato.  I varied the rhythms, worked on a syncopated LH-RH rhythm as in the first motif of the Invention.  Do not rush things.  Can you play the first bar hands together?  Play it several times until it is secure.  Add the second bar. 

I'm sorry- what do you mean by "HT"? And yes, I can play the first bar- but only the first- easily.
And Daniel, thank you for such an in-depth reply- I didn't realize the rhythm difference, it makes sense though.
 

[jazzyprof]

I'm sorry- what do you mean by "HT"?

Ah, sorry...  HT=Hands Together

[galonia]

It doesn't seem like anyone has suggested that you listen to a recording of it - sometimes that helps!  I remember this piece, and I could play it but it never sounded like it all fit together, and I never knew which hand was going where, until one of my friends played it, and he could do it!  Once I'd heard someone else play the piece, I miraculously sorted out the melodies and my hands, and never had any problems with it since.

[Daniel_piano]

I'm sorry- what do you mean by "HT"? And yes, I can play the first bar- but only the first- easily.
And Daniel, thank you for such an in-depth reply- I didn't realize the rhythm difference, it makes sense though.
 

No problem
Try all the methods you've been suggested (and ask about what you don't have understood about these methods) and then come back if you have any problem
Anyway if you still have problems after trying these methos; it would be far more helpful to you if you tell us the number of the bar you have more problems with (usually on a whole invention only 6/7 bars contain hard technical problems)
It would be a waste of time to repeat the whole piece over and over when the problem is only on those few bars
Be sure to mark them on your sheet
I like for example to mark the difficult part of my pieces (the one I need to work on) with parentesis (  )  and the chunk between the two
I've seen students using points, stars, circles, squares .... but eventually the sheet is a mess, parentesis are more elengant and don't bother you at all

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

It doesn't seem like anyone has suggested that you listen to a recording of it - sometimes that helps!  I remember this piece, and I could play it but it never sounded like it all fit together, and I never knew which hand was going where, until one of my friends played it, and he could do it!  Once I'd heard someone else play the piece, I miraculously sorted out the melodies and my hands, and never had any problems with it since.

Very good idea
Anyway, if Glissando doesn't have a CD with the inventions a midi can be usefull too to have an idea or how the piece sounds
Invention n.6

Daniel

[Glissando]

Cool! That link is harpsicord! Thanks.
I did buy a recording of no. 6 along with all the other inventions off iTunes- not the greatest piano playing ever (I bought the cheapest album), but it's okay.
Yes, I work on the problem measures seperately, one of my old teachers taught me that. She used to circle, but I like the parenthesis idea better.
I probably will come back with more questions, not quite sure I understand everything yet.

[Daniel_piano]

I probably will come back with more questions, not quite sure I understand everything yet.

Be sure to ask anytime you don't understand something, otherwise the suggestion, when not understood, may become a bad suggestion and a worse problem than the problem it intended to solve
It doesn't matter if you write 700 posts asking explanations, if something is not clear: ask always; immediately; as soon as something seems to be nonsense or was not well explained

Daniel 

[Glissando]

Okay, I practiced it today.
The E Major scale helped a lot! I need to work with it on my LH some more, though- the left hand tends to lag (which is why I'm playing the Czerny etude- ambidextrous piano players have it MADE!).
Working on it very slowly and repeating each bar about 3 times before going to the next one helped, too (as yet I'm concentrating on the first three bars).
I'm having problems with the fingering of the left hand in the second and third bars- any suggestions I can try?
Also- with the syncopaction stuff going on, is it possible to play this piece with a metronome? I can't get it to work. Not that I like the metronome or anything, just that my teacher likes me to practice with it.
Thanks!

[xvimbi]

Okay, I practiced it today.

Good!

Working on it very slowly and repeating each bar about 3 times before going to the next one helped, too (as yet I'm concentrating on the first three bars).
I'm having problems with the fingering of the left hand in the second and third bars- any suggestions I can try?

The first three bars are just a simple scale. The fingering should be 543|213|21234|15. To be very blunt: Fingering doesn't come much easier than for the LH in the first four bars. If you are having difficulties with this part, you need a lot more input from your teacher.

Also- with the syncopaction stuff going on, is it possible to play this piece with a metronome? I can't get it to work. Not that I like the metronome or anything, just that my teacher likes me to practice with it.

The syncopated rhythms are a hallmark of the inventions and many other Bach pieces. This is a difficult concept. To be very blunt again (I feel I can be blunt as I have been there myself, stumbling over the same hurdles): if you can't get around this aspect quickly, the inventions are too difficult for you. I'd recommend going back to easier Bach pieces until you get the hang of it. Also, the inventions are really better learned HS until you can play each hand rhythmically correct in your sleep. Only then should you attempt to put the hands together. Finally, inventions 1 and 8 are easier. One should probably start with those.

[Glissando]

The first three bars are just a simple scale. The fingering should be 543|213|21234|15. To be very blunt: Fingering doesn't come much easier than for the LH in the first four bars. If you are having difficulties with this part, you need a lot more input from your teacher.

Oh.
I feel stupid now. Why didn't I see that?
But I see it now- thanks. BTW, I haven't gone over this piece with my teacher yet, I've been working on it for 2 weeks but haven't got to it during the lessons yet. I'll make sure we work on it next week.

The syncopated rhythms are a hallmark of the inventions and many other Bach pieces. This is a difficult concept. To be very blunt again (I feel I can be blunt as I have been there myself, stumbling over the same hurdles): if you can't get around this aspect quickly, the inventions are too difficult for you. I'd recommend going back to easier Bach pieces until you get the hang of it. Also, the inventions are really better learned HS until you can play each hand rhythmically correct in your sleep. Only then should you attempt to put the hands together. Finally, inventions 1 and 8 are easier. One should probably start with those.

I actually did play Invention 1- I have it memorized.
I have listened to the piece so much that i have it in my head, and the rhythm is getting engrained in my memory. I won't give up on this piece yet, I'll give it another couple weeks at least.
Thanks for your blunt advice, I appreciate it!

[xvimbi]

I seriously confused this thread with another thread, so I didn't realize that there were already a lot of good replies...

I did buy a recording of no. 6 along with all the other inventions off iTunes- not the greatest piano playing ever (I bought the cheapest album), but it's okay.

Ha, I just got me two versions from iTunes, one by Peter Serkin and another one by Janos Sebestyen. I find them both quite good, though. Perhaps, you got a different one.

Yes, I work on the problem measures seperately, one of my old teachers taught me that. She used to circle, but I like the parenthesis idea better.

This is dangerous, and - to be blunt - not the best way. Don't practice measure by measure, but phrase by phrase. E.g., when looking at the opening measures in the LH, practice measures 1-4 in one swoop, not measure 1, then measure 2, etc. Also, many phrases are repeated in the two hands, e.g. measures 1-4 in the RH is repeated in measures 5-8 in the LH, and vice versa. Keep that in mind, you can often use one hand to train the other.

Finally, one more thought: before actually attempting to play the piece, have you sat down and analyzed the piece? Have you looked at the modulations, the harmonic progressions, the rhtythmically tricky parts, themes, counterthemes and inversions, sequences, etc., etc. You would have recognized that the first four bars are a simple scale. If you come to your teacher with that kind of analysis, learning to play the piece will be half as hard.

Have fun, the inventions are great!

[Daniel_piano]

Also- with the syncopaction stuff going on, is it possible to play this piece with a metronome? I can't get it to work. Not that I like the metronome or anything, just that my teacher likes me to practice with it.
Thanks!

Using the metronome may be a bit more problematic with the syncopation
Anyway, to fully grasp the concept (remember my image of the beat divisions?) you can set the metronome so that each sub-beat is played

Have a look at the secon bar (it doesn't matter matter if the first note is anadditional value to the previous one, think of it as a separate note for now)
Set the metronome to 110
Now the left hand
Play each 8th note every two metronome beat
In this way you're "thinking" half the value of each 8th note
So each note is two metronome beat, meaning two 16th
Fot this bar you've a total of 6 beats


So,
1st beat: you play the A with the left hand and D with the right hand
2nd beat: you are still holding the A with the left but play the C with your right hand
3rd beat: you play the B with your left hand and hold the C with you left hand
4th beat: you keep holding the B with the right hand an' play the B with the left one
5th beat: you  play the C with you left hand and hold the B with your right hand
6th beat: you keep holding the C with the left hand but play the A with your left one

Now, can you notice the alternation?
play - play
hold - play
play - hold
hold - play
play - hold
hold - play

Concentrate on this alternation aspect while you listen to this bar on your CD
And if you have problem on piano try it just with your hands on your desk

Try it and let us know
If you have other problems ask, if you problems understanding what I wrote, ask

Godo luck 

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

Okay, I practiced it today.
The E Major scale helped a lot! I need to work with it on my LH some more, though- the left hand tends to lag

Now, here's a way to practice the E major scale
You should divide the scale according to each suction beofore a displacement/passing of the thumb, first noticing which section gives you more problems and then practicing repeating that section many time

The E major scales is like this:

E F# G# A B C# D# E F# G# A B C# D# E D# C# B A G# F# E D# C# B A G# F# E

So according to displacing/passing fingers here how you divide it:

RH:

E F# G#
1 2   3

A B C# D#
1 2 3    4

E F# G#
1 2    3

A B C# D# E
1 2 3    4   5

E D# C# B A
5 4   3    2  1

G# F# E
3    2   1

D# C# B A
4    3   2  1

G# F# E
3   2    1

Imagine that these eight sections are eight different scale
Prctice each one without legating them, in fact with a long pause between each section without passing your thumb but displacing your whole hand on the next section position
Find which of these section is more problematic to you
Let's 6 for example that you're not confortable with the movement of section 6 and this ruin your whole scale

LH:

E F# G# A B
5 4   3    2 1

C# D# E
3    2    1

F# G# A B
4   3    2 1

C# D# E
3    2    1

E D# C#
1 2    3

B A G# F#
1 2 3   4

E D# C#
1 2    3

B A G# F# E
1 2 3   4   5

Again, play each section as a separate scale without connecting them together
Find out what section is giving you problem and ruining your whole scale
Let's say for example that it's section 8

Now, you know that you whole scale is just ruined by few notes: section  6 RH and section 8 LH
So what you do know is to focus only on these section
Play section 6 RH two times
Play section 8 LH two times while your right hand rest on your lap
Play section 6 RH one times while left hand rest on your lap
Play section 8 LH one times while your right hand rest on your lap
Play section 6 RH three times while left hand rest on your lap
Play section 8 LH three times while your right hand rest on your lap
Play section 6 RH two times
Play section 8 LH two times while your right hand rest on your lap
Play section 6 RH one times while left hand rest on your lap
Play section 8 LH one times while your right hand rest on your lap
.... and so on

When these section will be perfect and fluent play again all the sections without connecting
Are they all perfect? If so, try to play your whole scale, hand separate first and then hand together
If they're not all perfect, mark the section that is giving you problems and practice only these two these sections alternating hands until they're perfect

Try and let me know if it helps
Daniel

[xvimbi]

...
LH:

E F# G# A B
1 2  3   4  5
...

You need to revise your fingering scheme, unless you have two right hands (that would make things a lot easier), or are a contortionist (in which case, you should get money for it)
 

[Daniel_piano]

...
LH:

E F# G# A B
1 2  3   4  5
...

You need to revise your fingering scheme, unless you have two right hands (that would make things a lot easier), or are a contortionist (in which case, you should get money for it)
 

  LOL
Thanks, I corrected it

Daniel (the world famous contortionist)

[Glissando]

Ha, I just got me two versions from iTunes, one by Peter Serkin and another one by Janos Sebestyen. I find them both quite good, though. Perhaps, you got a different one.

I think I got the Janos Sebestyen one- the No. 6 isn't bad, but a lot of the other pieces in that album I think he plays way too fast and mechanically. JMNSHO, of course. I've heard a different performer play No. 6 and I thought he played it really beautifully. Don't know who it was, though.

This is dangerous, and - to be blunt - not the best way. Don't practice measure by measure, but phrase by phrase. E.g., when looking at the opening measures in the LH, practice measures 1-4 in one swoop, not measure 1, then measure 2, etc. Also, many phrases are repeated in the two hands, e.g. measures 1-4 in the RH is repeated in measures 5-8 in the LH, and vice versa. Keep that in mind, you can often use one hand to train the other.

I realized that during my practice this morning, measure by measure is confusing esp. starting the 4th measure. 

Finally, one more thought: before actually attempting to play the piece, have you sat down and analyzed the piece? Have you looked at the modulations, the harmonic progressions, the rhtythmically tricky parts, themes, counterthemes and inversions, sequences, etc., etc. You would have recognized that the first four bars are a simple scale. If you come to your teacher with that kind of analysis, learning to play the piece will be half as hard.

I've done some of that, I looked to see how the melodies interweave and how they repeat, and go up and down (invert). I'll try to find some of the other stuff you mentioned. By countertheme you mean countermelody, right?

[Glissando]

Now, here's a way to practice the E major scale
You should divide the scale according to each suction beofore a displacement/passing of the thumb, first noticing which section gives you more problems and then practicing repeating that section many time
Try and let me know if it helps
Daniel

I will! thank you very much.
I have tried taking the E major scale, playing hands together only not playing the RH and LH notes at the same time- I off-set them like in No. 6.
Like this:
--.RH:e-rest-f-rest-g-rest-a-rest-b-rest-c-rest-d-rest-e-rest-d-rest-c-rest-etc.
LH:-rest-e-rest-f-rest-g-rest-a-rest-b-rest-c-rest-d-rest-e-rest-d-rest-c-rest-etc.
(rest=hold)
That helped quite a bit.
I'm not having problems with the rhythm anymore! I can play the first three bars fairly confidently now.

[xvimbi]

I think I got the Janos Sebestyen one- the No. 6 isn't bad, but a lot of the other pieces in that album I think he plays way too fast and mechanically. JMNSHO, of course. I've heard a different performer play No. 6 and I thought he played it really beautifully. Don't know who it was, though.

You think Sebestyen is fast? He is the slowest I have ever heard. Just to give you an idea:

Janos Sebestyen: 4'04"
Wolfgang Ruebsam: 3'21"
Andras Schiff: 3'18"
Peter Serkin: 2'46"
Glenn Gould: 2'44"

some more MMs (eighth note)
Bischoff: 138
Czerny: 144
Bodky: 120
Keller: 96
Gailing: 104
Gilbert: 104
Gould: 92
Jaccottet: 120
Kirkpatric: 80
Koopman: 120
Landowska: 88
Malcolm: 112
Schiff: 112

Play it at whatever tempo you want!

[Glissando]

Daniel- the scale breakdown works well.
xvimbi- are you kidding?! 2'44"? That is insane!!!!!!!! Are you sure that is performance time with repeats? the snipet you can hear for free on iTunes didn't sound that fast.
I'm so excited, I added in the 32nd notes and the first three bars sound AWESOME! I am so thrilled.

[Daniel_piano]

I'm so excited, I added in the 32nd notes and the first three bars sound AWESOME! I am so thrilled.

You're right to be exited as mastering this piece will make mastering other Bach pieces easier to you
Beware, though, not to learn the piece necessarily in order (bar 1 first, then bar 2, then bar 3 and so on) but mark those section that seem harder and practice them first alternating right and left hand often

If you like Bach music you could buy the 12 little preludes (that although little are nothing but fabulous) and at this point you should be able to play all of them in few weeks

Daniel

[Glissando]

I do like Bach, although my fav. Baroque composer is definately Vivaldi. But he didn't write for piano.
I'll check out the prelude book at the music store next time we go.
Thanks again everyone for your help!

[Glissando]

OK,I had my piano lesson today and played the Bach. My teacher was impressed with how well I brought out the voices.
w00+!
Thanks everybody! You helped make my day!