More practice makes not perfect...

[faulty_damper]

... but how you practice matters greatly.

In a recent article, researches found that even though gamers practiced the same amount of time, some achieved higher scores.  Why?  The data showed that high achievers spent more time investigating how the game worked and spaced out that practice time.

How this applies to you, the pianist
In all likelihood, you precociously waste large amounts of time whenever you practice.  You may even believe that the more hours you spend, the better you become.  While this is true to some extent, beyond it, getting better requires far more intelligent practice.

The research in learning and memory strongly supports two methods of faster learning:
1. investigation
2. intervalic practice schedules

Investigation means finding the more efficient and effective way to go about accomplishing a task.  Intervalic practice schedules means distributing practice over the course of several days.  By doing these two things, you can drastically improve your playing skills and learning and save yourself an incredible amount of time (or years) to master the piano.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140107093319.htm

[ranniks]

In all likelihood, you precociously waste large amounts of time whenever you practice. 

Sorry, but how do you know this applies to everyone on this board? Have you seen me practise? Have you seen the rest practise?

[faulty_damper]

Sorry, but how do you know this applies to everyone on this board? Have you seen me practise? Have you seen the rest practise?

Did I say everyone? No. Don't take it personally and don't be so insecure about it. But the fact that you are insecure suggests that you could probably use some improvement, don't you agree?

[ranniks]

Did I say everyone? No. Don't take it personally and don't be so insecure about it. But the fact that you are insecure suggests that you could probably use some improvement, don't you agree?

Excuse me? How am I insecure by suggesting a realistic fact? The assumption ticked me off, not whether my own practise is inadequate.

So what if concert pianists visit this board and see your post? Maybe they are already achieving high end results....

Anyways, it certainly is possible that it applies to me, I have no shame in admitting that. However, I achieve things right now while I'm enjoying it. Maybe the methods that you are suggesting will take away the fun in playing.

Right now I only have  +- 1 hour a day to practise/play the piano. At first I did scales, octave scales, two fingered scales, mirror etc etc everyday.. This took too much time in my practise, it even bored me I think. So now I only do scales every two or three days and practise new scales everyday until I master them and add them to the other scale schedule. This has improved my hand flexibility in playing and also given me more time to practise new pieces. My hands also have more energy for pieces without the scales being done before practising the pieces.

[pianosfun]

I find this topic to be completely true. However, it will not work for a person who doesn't care about the piano - at least not entirely. In fact! Don't even think about this thread, and meanwhile love playing every single note (For any occasion, even just one note) on the piano, and you'll do this stuff anyway!!! [But think about the concepts when not practicing I guess]

Prodigies and "musical" people learn so quickly not because they hit their heads with a bat everyday, but because they are so mesmerized by the instrument..

I also find that when I think about consequences, I don't practice correctly. When I don't care about consequences but do it for it's own sake, then I learn like a genius...

The trial and error is common sense. Why, for instance, do you think a virtuoso would WANT to make a mistake? They would never do that... It would just be stupid, haha.

This also has to do with patience. Patience is the foundation of any learning of music, for it suggests love

[slane]

Well it always startles me what people can get funding for in research.
The idea of people learning faster if they do "deliberate" practice has been previously researched and expounded at length by the author of Talent is Overrated (A terrific read for pianists BTW).
"Deliberate" practice is practice with feedback and a plan. In the Axon game scenario, feedback is easily obtained from the game itself and a skill set readily established. In the far more subjective field of piano, most people aren't objective enough to hear themselves properly and so need a teacher for that feedback.

The second idea is that spaced practice is better than continuous. Well there are posts on this site by the venerated Bernard stating that you should practice something for 20mins and then sleep on it and that will give you the biggest improvement. I think that's well known for any motor skill. But according to this article from the sidebar of FDs link
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130415124804.htm
the sleep requirement has only just been tested on musicians. (and its true! phew!)

What was very interesting to me in this article is that if you learn two similar tunes and then sleep, you get no bonus improvement for the sleep! This could explain why I am struggling with my scarlatti! I practice the exposition, then something else entirely, then the development and it just does not stick! The exposition and development are similar sooooo....
Gonna try learning just the one or the other this week!

Pianosfun is absolutely right about prodigies and practice and intrinsic motivation. Also expounded in Talent is Overrated. Did I mention its a good book?

[EDIT] BUt here's an idea? Does a nap in the afternoon count as sleep? Can you practice the exposition, nap, development, sleep and get improvement in both???

[slane]

OMG! A nap does count!
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120624135013.htm

but a nap where you play the tune you're learning while you sleep!
I'm very tired this morning .. I think I'll give that a go this arvo! LOL!

And sleeping right after learning something is better
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120323205504.htm
So you should do your practice in the evening.

[faulty_damper]

Practicing in the evening generally yields greater results because you will sleep soon afterward.  If you wait to sleep or nap, the learning consolidation is weaker, such as practicing in the morning or afternoon.  Researchers aren't certain why but speculate that without sleeping on it, you mix up the things you learn.

[pianosfun]

Some time before practicing, try this:

Get a really good sound system or a good headset,

Listen to some music for about 15 minutes and think deeply about each note skillfully played, even until you start to half sleep, but still think of it,

Then practice...

Then listen to more music,

Then sleep.

[awesom_o]

... but how you practice matters greatly.

I've heard it said that practice makes permanent.


This is true, and very different from 'practice makes perfect'!

[faulty_damper]

I've heard it said that practice makes permanent.


This is true, and very different from 'practice makes perfect'!

It's only permanent if you continue to practice it that way. If you stopped, you'll start to forget so it's not actually permanent.

[outin]

It's only permanent if you continue to practice it that way. If you stopped, you'll start to forget so it's not actually permanent.

I would actually be interested in the processes of unlearning...Faulty, do you know of any interesting research on that? It seems like there are individual differences as well. I have always found it very easy to unlearn things (meaning relearning in a different way) so I have always found the "practice makes permanent" statement not very applicable in practice. It is true, that something becomes more permanent when relearned a few times, but it really is not difficult to relearn again in a different way for me (to change fingerings or correcting misreadings of the score). I have thought it is related to my general tendency to forget everything very easily.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Dude!!!

Polyphasic sleeping integrated with a polyphasic practice schedule has done me wonders!

I take a nap after every practice session.

It's like so legit dude.

[faulty_damper]

Outin,
About unlearning, let's just call this forgetting, you can't purposefully forget something.  The only thing you can do is simply don't recall or don't do the thing you want to forget.  Forgetting is a passive process in this way.  Another option, e.g. you formed a bad habit, is to learn an alternative habit to replace the bad one.

There is a physiological reason why people learn at different rates and the current understanding is that it has to do with the synthesis of proteins at the synapse.  There are dozens of proteins involved in the strengthening of synapses and some people just don't make enough of them.  This makes it difficult for these people to form certain kinds of memories.  Some people who are given protein-inhibiting antibiotics for infections report memory loss as a side effect.  And drugs have been found that actually causes the erasure of memories if the subject recalls the memory while taking it.  (This was what inspired the movie, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.)

[outin]

Outin,
About unlearning, let's just call this forgetting, you can't purposefully forget something.  The only thing you can do is simply don't recall or don't do the thing you want to forget.  Forgetting is a passive process in this way.  Another option, e.g. you formed a bad habit, is to learn an alternative habit to replace the bad one.

There is a physiological reason why people learn at different rates and the current understanding is that it has to do with the synthesis of proteins at the synapse.  There are dozens of proteins involved in the strengthening of synapses and some people just don't make enough of them.  This makes it difficult for these people to form certain kinds of memories.  Some people who are given protein-inhibiting antibiotics for infections report memory loss as a side effect.  And drugs have been found that actually causes the erasure of memories if the subject recalls the memory while taking it.  (This was what inspired the movie, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.)

Yes, I was just wondering if there's anything new happening in this field. You seem to follow neuropsychological research, so I thought you might know of some new publications.