I. Philipp - Another technique post!

[charmsjr94]

Hey y'all,

I know this forum is overwhelmed with technique exercise questions, but I wanted some opinions on the Philipp technique method, more specifically "Exercises for Independence of the Fingers." I started doing them last year every day, stopped for a bit, and started again a few months ago. I do the first 5 Hannon exercises (to get my fingers loose), then the Philipp, then scales. I feel like it has immensely helped to strengthen my fingers individually, especially my 4th and 5th fingers.

Does anyone else use/approve of these exercises? Anyone have other exercises to recommend? Just like weight lifting, I feel like if you practice the same things daily, eventually you will plateau and need to switch it up.

Thanks! 

[cabbynum]

Hey y'all,

I know this forum is overwhelmed with technique exercise questions, but I wanted some opinions on the Philipp technique method, more specifically "Exercises for Independence of the Fingers." I started doing them last year every day, stopped for a bit, and started again a few months ago. I do the first 5 Hannon exercises (to get my fingers loose), then the Philipp, then scales. I feel like it has immensely helped to strengthen my fingers individually, especially my 4th and 5th fingers.

Does anyone else use/approve of these exercises? Anyone have other exercises to recommend? Just like weight lifting, I feel like if you practice the same things daily, eventually you will plateau and need to switch it up.

Thanks! 

Send me a PM I'll help you out

[faulty_damper]

It doesn't sound like you understand what good technique is. No amount of these exercises will help you because you're walking down the wrong path.

[charmsjr94]

Can you elaborate Mr. Damper?

[charmsjr94]

My understanding of "Technique" is the ability to play precisely how you wish to interpret a piece. With that comes the development of speed, independence of fingers, and fluidity, among other things. 

[faulty_damper]

My understanding of "Technique" is the ability to play precisely how you wish to interpret a piece. With that comes the development of speed, independence of fingers, and fluidity, among other things.  

And what about ease?  You can still sound good with bad technique but you will struggle to practice until it's just right, which is often just a fleeting moment.  If you practiced for ease, then you can extend those moments.

[awesom_o]

Does anyone else use/approve of these exercises?

Thanks! 

These exercises are some of the finest! There is a very specific way that they are to be studied/performed that you must be aware of!
I spent about a year on book I and a year on book II and it really did so much for my technique!

[hardy_practice]

+1 (and +1 from my late teacher!)

[charmsjr94]

Thanks awesom_o, I haven't come across anyone else that has used these exercises.

As for ease, the whole reason I practice technique is for total command of the keyboard, which requires ease, yes, and I don't see why technical exercises wouldn't help that.

[awesom_o]

Thanks awesom_o, I haven't come across anyone else that has used these exercises.

As for ease, the whole reason I practice technique is for total command of the keyboard, which requires ease, yes, and I don't see why technical exercises wouldn't help that.

In my experience, many people don't believe in the idea of technique. Even some professors at conservatoire avoid the subject entirely, preferring to coach students on matters of interpretation.

Personally, I think that it's highly worthwhile to invest in one's technique from early on.

faulty_damper suggests that you can still sound good with bad technique...I have yet to hear a really good-sounding performance of anything that was delivered with bad technique!

The Philipp exercises developed my hands to a huge extent. It is very clever how they are based on 5-note diminished chords.

Those 5-note chord shapes remain symmetrical no matter what inversion they are played in!

Our hands are naturally very asymmetrical. The inside 3 digits are much more powerful than the outer two, and the thumb-half of the palm is thicker and more meaty than the  pinky-half!

After spending two years working every day on Philipp, my hands changed dramatically.  They are much more symmetrical now.

I now play the piano with one mighty unit of ten equally accomplished players, instead of two weak units of five unequally accomplished layabouts!

[faulty_damper]

So Awesom_O,
You say you've yet to hear a pianist sound good with bad technique.  Have you heard Argerich play?  Did you think she sounded good?  And what of Cortot?  Both of them have said some intriguing things about their technique, both implying that they had fundamental flaws.  They both worked very, very hard to sound good even with their flawed technique.

[awesom_o]

So Awesom_O,
You say you've yet to hear a pianist sound good with bad technique.  Have you heard Argerich play?  Did you think she sounded good? 

I did hear her once. It was a duet/duo concert, in Usher Hall, Edinburgh. The music was incredible, and it really opened my eyes to the magic of piano duo and duet.

Argerich has incredible technique! I'm not sure where you ever heard anything to the contrary....

Never heard Cortot live. His recordings aren't my cup of tea but his touch could be marvelous at times!

[lelle]

So Awesom_O,
You say you've yet to hear a pianist sound good with bad technique.  Have you heard Argerich play?  Did you think she sounded good?  And what of Cortot?  Both of them have said some intriguing things about their technique, both implying that they had fundamental flaws.  They both worked very, very hard to sound good even with their flawed technique.

In the case of Cortot I always attributed that to Parkinsons. You can clearly see how much he trembles in the masterclass video where he is really old. Recordings from when he is "young" (granted the earliest recordings from 1919 he is already 42) are often played at astronomical tempos without loss of musicality or clarity (from what you can hear from 80 year old, muddy recordings) so it's hard for me to imagine his technique was bad if he could pull that off, especially with that marvellous tone he had.

I've always been fascinated by Cortot, what intriguing things about his technique did he say that implied there were flaws?

[faulty_damper]

I did hear her once. It was a duet/duo concert, in Usher Hall, Edinburgh. The music was incredible, and it really opened my eyes to the magic of piano duo and duet.

Argerich has incredible technique! I'm not sure where you ever heard anything to the contrary....

Never heard Cortot live. His recordings aren't my cup of tea but his touch could be marvelous at times!

So you're actually admitting you're wrong and/or making an error in reasoning since you assume that a person who sounds good must also have good technique.  This is a faulty assumption.  I remember a time when I sounded good (according to my teachers) but had very poor technique since I had to practice endless hours to achieve it.  And even then, the moment I stopped practicing, it would fall apart.

[faulty_damper]

In the case of Cortot I always attributed that to Parkinsons. You can clearly see how much he trembles in the masterclass video where he is really old. Recordings from when he is "young" (granted the earliest recordings from 1919 he is already 42) are often played at astronomical tempos without loss of musicality or clarity (from what you can hear from 80 year old, muddy recordings) so it's hard for me to imagine his technique was bad if he could pull that off, especially with that marvellous tone he had.

I've always been fascinated by Cortot, what intriguing things about his technique did he say that implied there were flaws?

You need to be cautious of listening to those old recordings, partly due to the audio fidelity but mostly due to the playback of those recordings.  It's highly improbable that he could have played those pieces so fast.  What's more likely is that the playback equipment played them back at a faster tempo.  This is actually quite common.

Here's an old thread that expounds upon famous pianists' technique.  Bernhard mentions far more pianists who had flawed technique.  It's actually a really good thread about technique from 8 years ago.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19043.0

[pianosfun]

Listen to this!!!! (I am in the process of getting virtuoso-like technique in the manner of only a few weeks).

Your fingers don't need you to thrust them thoughtlessly a thousand times through the excercises that other men developed. Your fingers need to be thoughfully used to play piano keys slowly for the sake of music.

If you really care, and if you really play as you think the instrument really ought to be played slowly from note to note, then you'll develope virtuoso-like technique. This is the key: You must give each note played VOLUNTARY, thoughtful attention and respect. You must always think ahead on the note that is to be played.

This takes patience. Try just 5 notes, one per finger. Play each note one after another VERY SLOWLY, with much thought and love. Give each finger due respect. If you can play one note endearingly by itself, then you can also play that same note from another note. And always remember, there is no right or wrong, just your desire to embrace, sink into, the keys. -For its own sake - Not for skill's sake.

[j_menz]

Listen to this!!!! (I am in the process of getting virtuoso-like technique in the manner of only a few weeks).

Darn, my snake oil allergy seems to have flared up. 

[pianosfun]

To j_menz,

Yes, I am sorry, I should have thought longer before writing that type of sentence.

But would you call a person who has a desire to help others out from what he clearly sees in his own practice a snake? I am developing virtuoso-like technique that looks similar to Kissin's, and anyone else who wants to can also.

If you not only limit yourself musically, but others also, what good does that do to you?

I am sorry for my ignorance. I'll think more and listen more in the future. My desire to share has turned into miscommunication.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Yeah, here I misunderstood use of "snake oil." Haha, it does have that ring to it. And also, you'll see me rant due to my big opinion and inexperience in the piano world and on forums. I was taking it all seriously, as if we're all trapped in a box that others have a key on. Let's just be glad that it was in here and not out there! But yeah, here's common sense - You've got to go about very carefully if you want to teach various piano teacher's students micro lessons. They can get really mad... But Asperger's drags you out the realm of common sense if you're not careful! Listen, listen, listen before speaking will have to be the motto]

[j_menz]

But would you call a person who has a desire to help others out from what he clearly sees in his own practice a snake?

You appear to have misunderstood.  Suggest you google "snake oil salesman"

I am developing virtuoso-like technique that looks similar to Kissin's, and anyone else who wants to can also.

Looks like Kissin's? Pass.  Whatever it's actual merits in terms of efficiency and sound production, and that has been the subject of some debate here in the past (which I do not hope to resurrect), it is certainly not the best looking technique out there.

[dima_76557]

You need to be cautious of listening to those old recordings, partly due to the audio fidelity but mostly due to the playback of those recordings.  It's highly improbable that he could have played those pieces so fast.  What's more likely is that the playback equipment played them back at a faster tempo.  This is actually quite common.

Wouldn't that change the pitch too much with the analog signal technology they had back then? MM 120, 8 notes to the beat was the norm for scales and passage work, so there's no doubt in my mind that the old masters were quite capable piano players without sounding mechanical.

[pianosfun]

OK, what if I said that my technique is becoming virtuoso-like regardless of how it looks? (I'm sorry for the high number of comments; I'm out of here now). (Yundi Li has beautiful looking technique).

My point is that a person's technique is what he makes for himself, not what a bunch of books and scales and programs of study make it to be... If there is no thought by the person, then there will be no virtuoso technique.

[j_menz]

My point is that a person's technique is what he makes for himself, not what a bunch of books and scales and programs of study make it to be... If there is no thought by the person, then there will be no virtuoso technique.

Don't confuse necessity with sufficiency.  All the thought in the world will not a virtuoso make without an ability to apply it in practice, and that takes practice, however thoughtful.

[j_menz]

Wouldn't that change the pitch too much with the analog signal technology they had back then? MM 120, 8 notes to the beat was the norm for scales and passage work, so there's no doubt in my mind that the old masters were quite capable piano players without sounding mechanical.

I think faulty is confusing audio with video - the latter often gets sped up on playback because of the different frame rates used on different equipment (which was, for a long time, hard to change).

[lelle]

You need to be cautious of listening to those old recordings, partly due to the audio fidelity but mostly due to the playback of those recordings.  It's highly improbable that he could have played those pieces so fast.  What's more likely is that the playback equipment played them back at a faster tempo.  This is actually quite common.

Here's an old thread that expounds upon famous pianists' technique.  Bernhard mentions far more pianists who had flawed technique.  It's actually a really good thread about technique from 8 years ago.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19043.0

I wouldn't be so sure if I were you, it is pretty easy to tell if a recording is sped up to slowed down, because the timing between notes and sound decay would feel "off". Everything in those recordings sounds natural and well timed to my ears. Try this:

If the recording was sped up to get that 2:00-ish Presto so Presto the slow parts would sound like slow-mo. Also, I think the sound engineers who did the restoration would've corrected the playback speed during the transfer.

P.S. If you leaf through Rational Principles you will find that Bernhard hasn't read the book very carefully. There's no talk about muscles in the fingers or strength, but rather about suppleness and flexibility. But I agree that there are dangerous things in that book though.

[awesom_o]

So you're actually admitting you're wrong and/or making an error in reasoning since you assume that a person who sounds good must also have good technique.  This is a faulty assumption. 

I'm doing nothing of the sort! I think YOU are making the error in suggesting that Martha Argerich, one of the greatest pianists of our time, has anything but exceptional technique!

Coincidentally, the teacher who I studied the Philipp exercises with studied technique under Maria Curcio who was also Argerich's teacher.

[pianosfun]

Don't confuse necessity with sufficiency.  All the thought in the world will not a virtuoso make without an ability to apply it in practice, and that takes practice, however thoughtful.

                  Perfect. Thanks

[charmsjr94]

Whoah, ok.

First, Technique is obviously not the material found in a bunch of books. That is a rather illogical statement in my opinion. Your technique is developed by the exercises found in the books and it's really just an organized way to strengthen everything.

Faulty Damper, you're saying that you sounded good without strengthening through exercises. I guess my point is that if you'd spent a little portion of the day doing exercises and developing strength and stamina, maybe it wouldn't take countless hours to develop a piece and maybe it wouldn't fall apart right away.

The way I see it, the exercises are supposed to make your life easier. Some people say "Oh just develop your technique while practicing your pieces," which is fine, but doesn't it make your job easier to be able to nail a scale or a tricky passage without spending a lot of time on it? If you practice smoothness and fluidity in your exercises, doesn't that transfer over to your playing at all? I think technical work plays a hugely important part in developing your overall piano sound

[faulty_damper]

Faulty Damper, you're saying that you sounded good without strengthening through exercises. I guess my point is that if you'd spent a little portion of the day doing exercises and developing strength and stamina, maybe it wouldn't take countless hours to develop a piece and maybe it wouldn't fall apart right away.

Oh, you mean practicing Hanon for six hours a day?  I did that and showed neither musical nor technical improvement.  Ironically, it was only after I stopped doing Hanon and other exercises that I started to sound better, actually making music.

Anyway, you're wrong to think piano playing has much to do about strength and stamina.  My forearm muscles are actually smaller now than when I was doing those hideous exercises.  My technique does not depend on having strength but instead, finesse.

[charmsjr94]

If you're doing Hanon for six hours a day, I think you might be doing something wrong....

Anyways, this forum post was about whether or not others found the Philipp exercises effective (which people have, evidently) and if others had suggestions on other exercises that have proven beneficial.

[hardy_practice]

By the way, make sure you read and take note of the preface.

[faulty_damper]

If you're doing Hanon for six hours a day, I think you might be doing something wrong....

Anyways, this forum post was about whether or not others found the Philipp exercises effective (which people have, evidently) and if others had suggestions on other exercises that have proven beneficial.

You just said that exercises will strengthen fingers and now you say doing exercises too much is the problem?  You need to get your argument straight, since you just change it when evidence contradicts your opinion.  No doubt some people will claim doing exercises were good for them, but who's going to bite the hand that feeds?

Correlation is not necessarily causation.  In this case, it most definitely isn't.

[awesom_o]

Definitely doing Hanon for six hours a day is not a good idea.

However, 30-40 minutes a day of focused, conscious work on exercises like the Philipp series can work wonders in the short space of a year!

[faulty_damper]

However, 30-40 minutes a day of focused, conscious work on exercises like the Philipp series can work wonders in the short space of a year!

Bwahahaha!  A YEAR!  I'd rather just teach my students how to use their bodies.  They are the instrument.  Not the piano.

[charmsjr94]

Usually, that's singing.

[j_menz]

Or abuse.

[faulty_damper]

Usually, that's singing.

You're body is the instrument.  One pianist said it this way: don't let the piano play you, YOU play the piano.  And he was/is right.

Now think about this thread.  Who's playing whom?

[j_menz]

You're body is the instrument.  One pianist said it this way: don't let the piano play you, YOU play the piano.  And he was/is right.

Now think about this thread.  Who's playing whom?

Another pianist said "I am a general. My soldiers are the keys and I have to command them."

Sometimes pianists say some dumb things.

[faulty_damper]

Another pianist said "I am a general. My soldiers are the keys and I have to command them."

Sometimes pianists say some dumb things.

Just look at this thread.  Completely agreed.

[lelle]

Bwahahaha!  A YEAR!  I'd rather just teach my students how to use their bodies.  They are the instrument.  Not the piano.

But exercises used the right way can help teaching and reinforcing how to use your body. There are other ways to do exercises than mindlessly drilling them for six hours a day.

[charmsjr94]

Faulty Damper, You're clearly not in favor of technical exercises. That's fine. But you can't even be open to the idea that they could be beneficial? A lot of people very clearly state that they can be immensely helpful but you seem vehemently against them. Most schools, even the top conservatories have scales and arpeggios as part of the audition process. All the teachers I've ever come across have students do technical work AT LEAST up until a certain point. Now, I'm hardly a mathematical or technical person when it comes to developing a certain skill, but I know that using exercises has developed a core set of skills that transfer over to my playing.

Teaching to play "with your body" just seems vague and wouldn't provide consistent relief from a technical stand point. I'm not trying to downplay your methods, but I would stick with technical exercises AMONG OTHER THINGS. Not Hanon 6 hours a day, but warm ups and technique for maybe 45 min to an hour and then 3- 5 hours of repertoire and general playing (which is basically my general schedule.) I've found that to be incredibally beneficial

[hardy_practice]

It's like athletes - they don't just do their specialism, they also do a daily complete body maintenance.

[faulty_damper]

Faulty Damper, You're clearly not in favor of technical exercises. That's fine. But you can't even be open to the idea that they could be beneficial? A lot of people very clearly state that they can be immensely helpful but you seem vehemently against them. Most schools, even the top conservatories have scales and arpeggios as part of the audition process. All the teachers I've ever come across have students do technical work AT LEAST up until a certain point. Now, I'm hardly a mathematical or technical person when it comes to developing a certain skill, but I know that using exercises has developed a core set of skills that transfer over to my playing

Do you know why so many "advanced" pianists still struggle with relatively basic technical issues that require them to practice an endless amount of hours?  It's because they are using a less than perfect technique that requires them to practice an endless amount of hours to maintain.

A perfect technique requires no extra practice once learned.  This is how you know whether or not the technique is perfect.  If you must still practice it, then it is less than perfect.

These finger exercises cannot teach you this perfect technique because it is based on faulty assumptions about how the body works.  Finger independence and finger strength is a myth and any student who thinks they can achieve this to improve their technique is ignorantly blissful.  These same people believe that doing them has worked yet they continue to do them or other exercises.  This is not the perfect technique.

Teaching to play "with your body" just seems vague and wouldn't provide consistent relief from a technical stand point. I'm not trying to downplay your methods, but I would stick with technical exercises AMONG OTHER THINGS. Not Hanon 6 hours a day, but warm ups and technique for maybe 45 min to an hour and then 3- 5 hours of repertoire and general playing (which is basically my general schedule.) I've found that to be incredibally beneficial

Of course it's vague.  But I guarantee that once you've experienced it, you'll understand exactly what I mean.  It will feel so easy.  You will never again need to do any kind of exercises nor practice any kinds of scales or arpeggios.  The only kinds of practice you will do will be for the acquisition and performance of repertoire.

But, most people would rather quantify their practice in terms of hours instead of accomplishments.  This is just lazy and/or misguided.

[awesom_o]

If you have perfect technique, you must sound really good!

Any chance you might be willing to share a small sample of your perfection over in the audition room? 

[charmsjr94]

I agree with awesom-o

I'd also like to hear a little more about your full body technique.

[nick]

Listen to this!!!! (I am in the process of getting virtuoso-like technique in the manner of only a few weeks).

Your fingers don't need you to thrust them thoughtlessly a thousand times through the excercises that other men developed. Your fingers need to be thoughfully used to play piano keys slowly for the sake of music.

If you really care, and if you really play as you think the instrument really ought to be played slowly from note to note, then you'll develope virtuoso-like technique. This is the key: You must give each note played VOLUNTARY, thoughtful attention and respect. You must always think ahead on the note that is to be played.

This takes patience. Try just 5 notes, one per finger. Play each note one after another VERY SLOWLY, with much thought and love. Give each finger due respect. If you can play one note endearingly by itself, then you can also play that same note from another note. And always remember, there is no right or wrong, just your desire to embrace, sink into, the keys. -For its own sake - Not for skill's sake.

I was with you until I heard you look like Kissins technique. You're description of playing and his technique appear opposing.

Nick

[nick]

Do you know why so many "advanced" pianists still struggle with relatively basic technical issues that require them to practice an endless amount of hours?  It's because they are using a less than perfect technique that requires them to practice an endless amount of hours to maintain.

A perfect technique requires no extra practice once learned.  This is how you know whether or not the technique is perfect.  If you must still practice it, then it is less than perfect.

These finger exercises cannot teach you this perfect technique because it is based on faulty assumptions about how the body works.  Finger independence and finger strength is a myth and any student who thinks they can achieve this to improve their technique is ignorantly blissful.  These same people believe that doing them has worked yet they continue to do them or other exercises.  This is not the perfect technique.

Of course it's vague.  But I guarantee that once you've experienced it, you'll understand exactly what I mean.  It will feel so easy.  You will never again need to do any kind of exercises nor practice any kinds of scales or arpeggios.  The only kinds of practice you will do will be for the acquisition and performance of repertoire.

But, most people would rather quantify their practice in terms of hours instead of accomplishments.  This is just lazy and/or misguided.

I agree with you even though I am not exactly where I want to be as my approach is relatively new. But this whole body technique I don't get. Care to elaborate or links?

Nick

[faulty_damper]

I agree with you even though I am not exactly where I want to be as my approach is relatively new. But this whole body technique I don't get. Care to elaborate or links?

Nick

I didn't use the term "whole body technique" and don't know what that actually means.  The technique I describe can be quantified this way:

Very easy > easy > difficult > very difficult

The best technique is one that allows you to play the easiest, without any extra strain, and doesn't require practice to maintain once learned.  Contrary, most people think like this:

play it > play it effortlessly.

They're only interested in playing the notes and then practice musical expression.  The technique doesn't matter.  This is why so many pianists, including rather famous ones, had to slave away at the keyboard.

[charmsjr94]

You completely avoided the question....

[faulty_damper]

You completely avoided the question....

Read carefully:

I didn't use the term "whole body technique" and don't know what that actually means.

[charmsjr94]

Fair enough. I got the words wrong. I just wanted you to explain in a more specific way what you meant. Instead, you keep beating around the bush and I don't think I can take you seriously anymore