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Topic: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days  (Read 2236 times)

Offline danielespinosa

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Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
on: January 12, 2014, 04:24:59 AM
Hi everyone!   :D

My situation is that I have to learn the 2nd and 3rd movements (I already know the 1st one) of Mozart sonata #7 in 7 days, because my teacher wants me to learn them for my next class that is in one week.

I don't have to play at full tempo or with dynamics, just to play it correctly without mistakes, at half speed, with hands together

I have never learnt that much pages in only a week, maybe because I haven't tried.

I just printed the music sheets, but I have listened the recording of the whole sonata about 25 times in these couple of weeks. I can practice this sonata 2 hours a day

So what can you suggest me to do? Any tips or advice on how to learn a lot of repertorie fast?  :)

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 05:59:19 AM
Any tips or advice on how to learn a lot of repertorie fast?  :)

1) You should be able to sight-read all of your repertoire at moderate tempo. If you can't do that, you are not actually up to it, and you will have to work hard to compensate.
2) If a certain passage that causes trouble at first cannot be solved within 5 minutes, your technique is not up to it, and you will have to work hard to compensate.

P.S.: I strongly disagree with your teacher not requiring anything in terms of dynamics and phrasing since these are key secrets to playing well and learning fast.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline quantum

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 10:10:43 AM
Practice only those places that give you the greatest challenges.  Sight-read the rest. 

If there are places that require fingering worked out, or other elements that need to be worked out, spend your limited time doing that.  It is too easy to get trapped only playing the parts you play well - after all it makes you feel good temporarily.  Resist that urge, and work on the most difficult parts. 

Try to get understanding of the overall piece, and its key elements.  Know where all your main key centers are, time changes, rhythmic motifs, etc.  You need to know where all these are before your fingers get to them as you play through the piece.  You are aiming not to have any surprises such as: We are in Minor now!  We were in minor for the past four systems!!! (you get the idea.)  It's the macrocosmic idea you need to grab, the odd misplaced notes can be fixed at a later time. 

Your aim is to prepare to sight read the piece well. 
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582176#msg582176 date=1389506359
1) You should be able to sight-read all of your repertoire at moderate tempo.

What?!
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Offline dima_76557

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 12:26:55 PM
What?!

Exactly that. Of course, a good knowledge of the composer's idiom in all keys and a good command over the keyboard are assumed. If those are not present yet, then no way you're gonna learn any of that composer's works as fast as the OP wants to. Worse even: trying to learn them within such a short time frame will be like punishment and will cause nothing but frustration. :)
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

theholygideons

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 12:52:40 PM
i disagree with the site reading at moderate tempo part.. we're not all Geoffrey Douglas Madge's here. Of course it's a useful tool in the learning process but it's not essential. I think before getting straight into learning the piece, the OP should spend perhaps a few hours studying the score and memorizing the structure and the note patterns in various phrases away from the piano. It will only speed up the process once he gets on the piano.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 01:49:21 PM
i disagree with the site reading at moderate tempo part..

This is okay if you don't mind being an illiterate musician. Many people are content with just being able to play a little bit, without developing any real expertise related to reading and writing music.

It's definitely better (for the classical style) to be a fully-literate musician, although it takes more work to get there. It's worth the struggle, however, because you can learn things much faster than someone with poor musical literacy.

If you can't read all of your repertoire at a moderate tempo, then the repertoire is too advanced.

You'll never be able to learn enough chamber music if you rely on memorizing the structure and note patterns away from the piano. You simply have to be able to play from sight!

Other musicians won't want to play with you if you rely on memorization!

Offline ranniks

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 01:54:41 PM
Are you a concert pianist?

What are you training for a concert or something?

It is absolute nonsense for an amateur pianist to learn 30 music pages (is it that long?) of a grade 5+ piece in a week.

Is your teacher high?

I play an hour a day and if I only practise one piece it would be done every 2-3 weeks. I can't see myself learning 30 pages of a grade 5+ piece in a week 3-6 years from now. That's utter nonsense. I'm a beginner, but I can sort of estimate my abilities 3-6 years from now.

Unless you piano is your main passion and you play up to or at least 5 hours a day.

But in a week................?

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 01:56:54 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582198#msg582198 date=1389529615
Exactly that. Of course, a good knowledge of the composer's idiom in all keys and a good command over the keyboard are assumed. If those are not present yet, then no way you're gonna learn any of that composer's works as fast as the OP wants to. Worse even: trying to learn them within such a short time frame will be like punishment and will cause nothing but frustration. :)

I wasn't able to sight read any of the stuff in my repertoire on the spot.

And just because you're not a good sight reader doesn't mean that you don't understand the composer. 

And doing something in a week can still be a fun learning process even if you're a bad sightreader.  If you like the music, then no matter how hard it is, it'll never feel like a punishment.

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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 02:04:42 PM
This is okay if you don't mind being an illiterate musician. Many people are content with just being able to play a little bit, without developing any real expertise related to reading and writing music.

It's definitely better (for the classical style) to be a fully-literate musician, although it takes more work to get there. It's worth the struggle, however, because you can learn things much faster than someone with poor musical literacy.

If you can't read all of your repertoire at a moderate tempo, then the repertoire is too advanced.

You'll never be able to learn enough chamber music if you rely on memorizing the structure and note patterns away from the piano. You simply have to be able to play from sight!

Other musicians won't want to play with you if you rely on memorization!

Not being a good sightreader doesn't make you an illiterate musician.  It just means that you're a bad sightreader. 

Ah, so if you can't sightread the Petrouchka then it's too advanced for you?  Dude nobody can sightread something like that.  So does that mean that it's too advanced for everyone?  

And you still don't play completely from sight with chamber music.  You get the music prior to everything and practice it for a bit, the you have rehearsals before hand so you work out performance kinks and you practice your part and study the other parts alone to get it performance ready.  And then you leave the music up there for security and cuing reasons.
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Offline awesom_o

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 02:13:32 PM
Not being a good sightreader doesn't make you an illiterate musician.


I guess you're right... it really only makes you a poorly-literate musician. ;)

Being fully-illiterate would mean you don't even know the difference between a treble clef and a bass clef!

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 02:19:36 PM

Ah, so if you can't sightread the Petrouchka then it's too advanced for you?  Dude nobody can sightread something like that.  So does that mean that it's too advanced for everyone?  


I do think Petrouchka is too advanced for a person who cannot read the score accurately at first sight under tempo.

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 02:23:11 PM
I guess you're right... it really only makes you a poorly-literate musician. ;)

Being fully-illiterate would mean you don't even know the difference between a treble clef and a bass clef!

You can have a fantastic relative pitch, great theory knowledge, perfect technique, knowledgeable about the history, the whole set, and still not be a good sightreader.  Would you still not be a literate musician?  Sightreading isn't everything.

What if you're blind?  Nobuyuki Tsuji is a blind pianist so he can't sightread, but he won the Van Cliburn competition in 2009.  And I know the Van Cliburn doesn't let illiterate musicians win.  

Art Tatum, one of the best musicians EVER couldn't sightread.  He was blind.  Is he illiterate?

Lol no not knowing the difference between treble and bass clef?!?!?!

That would be worse than being blind!  You would read everything wrong! :P

I think you meant it the other way around lol

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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 02:32:30 PM
I do think Petrouchka is too advanced for a person who cannot read the score accurately at first sight under tempo.



So someone could have chops to play it, but it'll be too hard for that person because he can't sightread that even if it's under tempo?
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Offline awesom_o

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 02:35:22 PM
If you have the chops but cannot read it, how will you learn it? The Suzuki method?

Surely if you have the chops, you'd be able to read it under tempo, making sense of the score from the very get go...

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 02:38:08 PM
If you have the chops but cannot read it, how will you learn it? The Suzuki method?

Surely if you have the chops, you'd be able to read it under tempo, making sense of the score from the very get go...

I think we're confusing looking at the score and slowly making sense of it vs playing it on the spot.

And I don't know what the Suzuki method is.  

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Offline awesom_o

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 02:47:18 PM


I don't have to play at full tempo or with dynamics, just to play it correctly without mistakes, at half speed, with hands together



The thing about Mozart is.... "playing it without dynamics" and "playing it correctly without mistakes" cannot realistically belong in the same sentence!

 

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 05:40:07 PM
I wasn't able to sight read any of the stuff in my repertoire on the spot.

I wonder how one learns such pieces within the time and limitations stipulated by the OP and more or less performance ready (except for the tempo maybe) if one cannot even sightread the material at moderate tempo. Not being able to sightread a piece is clearly a sign that a person is not actually ready for it, so he/she has to put lots of time into compensating for what should have been there in the first place.

And just because you're not a good sight reader doesn't mean that you don't understand the composer.

You infer what I did not mean to say. I said that you have to know the composer's idiom to be able to sightread the piece. I may be mistaken, of course, but I suspect that if one can't sightread a piece at moderate tempo, then one is either not familiar with the composer's idiom, or one has a poor command over the keyboard. Reading the notes is not the problem; it's shaping the notes musically the first time around that is the challenge.

And doing something in a week can still be a fun learning process even if you're a bad sightreader.  If you like the music, then no matter how hard it is, it'll never feel like a punishment.

The learning itself may not be a punishment. The ordeal comes when the highly critical teacher who tells you to do the task within X days is disgusted with how you perform. As in: "bring me Liszt's Orage in three days" and in three days, you play everything right except for the octaves. As soon as you have been through such an ordeal, it becomes part of your practice regimen to avoid that kind of dreadful experiences. I can assure you that that is not so much fun sometimes. ;D
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline brogers70

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #18 on: January 12, 2014, 07:05:58 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582229#msg582229 date=1389548407
You infer what I did not mean to say. I said that you have to know the composer's idiom to be able to sightread the piece. I may be mistaken, of course, but I suspect that if one can't sightread a piece at moderate tempo, then one is either not familiar with the composer's idiom, or one has a poor command over the keyboard. Reading the notes is not the problem; it's shaping the notes musically the first time around that is the challenge.

Something depends on what is meant by a moderate tempo. I'm a terrible sight reader and learn pretty much everything hands separate first (on the other hand it costs me no effort at all to memorize a Mozart or Beethoven sonata). Knowing the composer's idiom surely helps me with memorizing, but, alas, not with sight reading. I would love to be able to sit and read through Haydn sonatas at a moderate tempo, but I haven't got there yet. But, at least according to my teacher, I do a respectable, musical job on plenty of pieces which I could not remotely sight read at a moderate tempo (unless by moderate, you mean agonizingly slow). I wish I could sight read better, and I am improving, but if I limited myself to playing only pieces I could sight read at a moderate tempo, I would be learning a lot less.

I would agree, though, that if you plan on learning a Mozart sonata in a week, being able to sight read it from the start would be a big advantage.

I am, obviously, not a professional; for that, quick sight reading may well be indispensable, but certainly, as an amateur I can play pieces musically and well which I could not sight read at a moderate tempo from the beginning. If it's going to take a few months to get a Beethoven or Mozart sonata in shape, the fact that it takes an extra week to put the two hands together at the beginning doesn't add that much time. None of which is to say that it's not a good thing to work on sight reading....

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #19 on: January 12, 2014, 07:32:31 PM
Something depends on what is meant by a moderate tempo.

Even slow or very slow would be better in many cases than practising the notes the way many students seem to do to even understand what the piece is about. If you can't combine the hands right away without looking at the keyboard, something is wrong with the choice of repertoire. One should never practise repertoire; only rehearse it as something that is an open book already. I learned that lesson through hard experience and solved my overall problems accordingly instead of digging into pieces like a bull crashing his head into walls of resistance every time yet another piece came up I couldn't cope with within the set time limit.  :)
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline dima_76557

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #20 on: January 12, 2014, 07:37:37 PM
What if you're blind?

All good blind pianists, whatever style they play, have one thing in common: they can figure out by ear what takes others years to learn, and they are ready to do that with both hands, which is the crux - they are actually technically ready to play that piece although they have never practised it. Besides, someone like Nobuyuki Tsuji uses braille music notation (at least, I think I saw him doing so in one of the clips on YouTube) and most likely learns the notes by heart right after the first try. Their proprioception skills are unusually well developed.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 02:47:43 AM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582229#msg582229 date=1389548407
I wonder how one learns such pieces within the time and limitations stipulated by the OP and more or less performance ready (except for the tempo maybe) if one cannot even sightread the material at moderate tempo. Not being able to sightread a piece is clearly a sign that a person is not actually ready for it, so he/she has to put lots of time into compensating for what should have been there in the first place.

You infer what I did not mean to say. I said that you have to know the composer's idiom to be able to sightread the piece. I may be mistaken, of course, but I suspect that if one can't sightread a piece at moderate tempo, then one is either not familiar with the composer's idiom, or one has a poor command over the keyboard. Reading the notes is not the problem; it's shaping the notes musically the first time around that is the challenge.

The learning itself may not be a punishment. The ordeal comes when the highly critical teacher who tells you to do the task within X days is disgusted with how you perform. As in: "bring me Liszt's Orage in three days" and in three days, you play everything right except for the octaves. As soon as you have been through such an ordeal, it becomes part of your practice regimen to avoid that kind of dreadful experiences. I can assure you that that is not so much fun sometimes. ;D

Ooooh I just remembered!  One time I was browsing YouTube and I saw some guy performing a piece in 11 staves.  I don't remember whether or not it's an easy piece, but 11 staves?  Nobody can sightread 11 staves.  But he still perfromed it.

So then I guess that I'm not ready for something like fur elise.  
What if you end up learning something without being able to sightread it?  (all of my repertoire) does that still mean that I'm not ready for it?  I mean, I can play it fine, and if I hadn't told you that I wasn't able to sightread it, you probably would've thought, 'ah, he does a pretty good job' (just for the sake of argument).  I wouldn't say anyone's not ready to play anything unless a week passes by and they're still on the first page or something.  THAT'S a brick wall.

Ah, I see what you're saying.  I'm pretty familiar with Rachmaninoff, but I still can't sightread his stuff.  But because I've played his stuff before, I'll learn his music faster than I did my first time learning his stuff.  You can be familiar with a composers idiom but still suck at sightreading.  And it doesn't mean that I have a poor command over the keyboard.  I can barely read (not even) Mozart sonata No. 16 but I know for a fact that I can play it just fine.  Unless you mean something else when you say command over the keyboard.

ahaaaa I think when you say 'if you can't sightread something then you're not ready for it', I really think you mean that you're not ready to learn it in a short amount of time?  Which you actually CAN do, it just takes a bunch of practice.  

Just because you can't sightread doesn't mean you don't know what's going on.  Lets say you're doing something it and you spend a while learning the first half of it, then you get to the second half, and most of it is the SAME THING but in a different key!  So instead of learning 10 pages, you're only really learning five.  So you spend a little bit of time figuring out some finger work and stuff.  Not being able to sightread something well doesn't mean that you hit a brick wall.  You kinda feel you way through the piece, and you find patterns and as you move forward it gets easier.  And if you're familiar with the composer, it makes it even easier!  It's not like you're stuck on the first page for like 30 days or something.
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 02:50:35 AM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582238#msg582238 date=1389555457
Besides, someone like Nobuyuki Tsuji uses braille music notation (at least, I think I saw him doing so in one of the clips on YouTube)

so they DO have braille scores!

I'm gonna use that excuse next time someone wants me to do something for them. 

Sorry, I only read braille. ::)
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Offline dima_76557

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #23 on: January 13, 2014, 03:29:49 AM
ahaaaa I think when you say 'if you can't sightread something then you're not ready for it', I really think you mean that you're not ready to learn it in a short amount of time?  Which you actually CAN do, it just takes a bunch of practice.

I think the OP's question is: what kind of practice would that be? My posts are related to the limitations imposed upon the OP:
1) only 2 hours a day available;
2) the wish or the need to learn lots of repertoire within a short time (let's say three new pieces systematically each week, virtually performance ready).

To keep such a practice regimen psychologically and neurologically healthy, I see no other way than the one I proposed unless one has unusual motoric/auditory recall + Einstein-like analytical abilities.
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #24 on: January 13, 2014, 03:33:33 AM
It's amusing how easy it is to tell people's sight reading abilities from their posts here.  ;D

On a scale of sight reading difficulties, Mozart is right at the easy end, and the only limit should be one's overall technical ability.

Oh, and @rach4 - I suspect the guy with the 11 staves wasn't sight-reading, just reading. I'd be surprised if he hadn't practiced it some.
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #25 on: January 13, 2014, 03:33:59 AM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582292#msg582292 date=1389583789
I think the OP's question is: what kind of practice would that be? My posts are related to the limitations imposed upon the OP:
1) only 2 hours a day available;
2) the wish or the need to learn lots of repertoire within a short time (let's say three new pieces systematically each week, virtually performance ready).

To keep such a practice regimen psychologically and neurologically healthy, I see no other way than the one I proposed unless one has unusual motoric/auditory recall + Einstein-like analytical abilities.

*raises finger as if to say something*

...
...
...

*puts finger down*

I got you. :)
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Offline awesom_o

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Re: Learning a Mozart Sonata in 7 days
Reply #26 on: January 13, 2014, 02:08:13 PM
Quote from: dima_76557link=topic=53922.msg582237#msg582237 date=1389555151
One should never practise repertoire; only rehearse it as something that is an open book already.

This is an important point! Many people take far too long to discover it!
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