Greatest technically capable improviser in history?

[wildman]

I'm pretty sure it could be either the monster Gyorgy Cziffra or the legendary Art Tatum.

Who do you think had greater technical facility? It is all the more remarkable considering it's improvised.

[awesom_o]

I think Bach was even better. 

[ajspiano]

good improvisation technique is far more about musical depth than playing facility. Improvising something flashy is far easier than improvising something with a solid musical direction, form and counterpoint between parts.

And with that in mind my vote goes to bach also.

[pianosfun]

J.S. Bach? Hahaha. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Sorry, awesome_o, should have read first). Thanks for sharing, wildman. I do need to branch out from the music I'm listening to..

[j_menz]

good improvisation technique is far more about musical depth than playing facility. Improvising something flashy is far easier than improvising something with a solid musical direction, form and counterpoint between parts.

And with that in mind my vote goes to bach also.

Here, you clearly need one of these:



Otherwise, I'd broadly agree.

For improvisers before the advent of readily available recording, there is only anecdotal evidence for their merits, and often not that. Some of the greatest improvisers in history may simply be unknown to us.

[pianosfun]

Upon listening to both of these,

I'm still not sure who I would call the winner.
When you say "Technical facility," I'm assuming that you mean something similiar to a gun ready to be fired off? The musician would have to not only possess good technical skills regarding to scales, but also creativity that wouldn't sleep until it produced something somewhat original.

Sorry, again. I can't answer it correctly. To me Cziffra in all of his virtuosity (This word should never be used lightly. My apologies for using it so much in other threads. In my hard headedness I was trying to make a point) created more profound events that shocked you (Probably from experience with the repertoire he had learned). And Tatum overall produced a better sort of song that was given a good start, developing sections, and ending (Probably also centered around the things he was interested in). Maybe one of them brought in multiple things together from several sources?

[ajspiano]

Here, you clearly need one of these:

i h8 how ur always pickin on me and beeing such a grammer nazzi.

[j_menz]

i h8 how ur always pickin on me and beeing such a grammer nazzi.

I hope your English teachers' therapy sessions are going well.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm pretty sure it could be either the monster Gyorgy Cziffra or the legendary Art Tatum.

Who do you think had greater technical facility? It is all the more remarkable considering it's improvised.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

What the heck J Menz I thought your other personality was gone!

Ugh...

[starlady]

Gotta be Bach.  There were public contests of improvisation in the 18th century; when word got out that Bach was on the way to  an improvisation contest, the other musicians ran like bunny rabbits.   

 (https://www.classicfm.com/composers/bach/guides/bach-v-marchand-duel-never-was/

[ronde_des_sylphes]

If Bach, then why not Beethoven or Liszt? There's certainly testimony regarding Beethoven v Gelinek and v Steibelt.

I've never been all that keen on Cziffra's jazz(y) improvs - there's something slightly odd about them. In recorded history he gets my vote, especially for his Strauss stuff which I think transcends being merely flash though his tone and intensity. Also, what people tend to class as flashy, is merely natural improvisational self-expression. It's not flashy if it's easy to you..

[ahinton]

I hope your English teachers' therapy sessions are going well.

Don't you mean "teacher's"? The other question - "for whom?" - is prompted by my recollecting that, a short while after a move on Zemlinsky's part meant that the precociously talented teenage Korngold's studies with him had to come to an end and Korngold began studies with an evident academic dullard whose name I cannot immediately call to mind so I'll refer to him here as "×", an exchange of correspondence between the two composers included a letter in which Zemlinsky asked his former student about his studies with × by saying "how is it going? is he making progress?"...

Anyway, to return to the topic(!), the problem here is, as has already been noted, that one can only really write about those who have a recorded legacy of improvisation; not only Bach but Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt, Franck and Reger, among others, are documented as highly accomplished improvisers but the only evidence that we have for any of it is in documentation (which is not, of course, to suggest that it wasn't true!). Traditionally, improvisation has perhaps been encouraged rather more in organists' studies than in those of pianists and other instrumentalists and the element of improvisation in jazz performance has often tended to have a largely separate existence from the world of "classically trained" performers (with certain notable exceptions, of course).

Among pianists alive today, perhaps Gabriela Montero is the most noted for including improvisations in recital programmes.

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

Don't you mean "teacher's"?

No, I had assumed that there were several.

[ahinton]

No, I had assumed that there were several.

Oh, dear - there were/are several? Mon Dieu!

Best,

Alistair

[nyiregyhazi]

If Bach, then why not Beethoven or Liszt? There's certainly testimony regarding Beethoven v Gelinek and v Steibelt.

I've never been all that keen on Cziffra's jazz(y) improvs - there's something slightly odd about them. In recorded history he gets my vote, especially for his Strauss stuff which I think transcends being merely flash though his tone and intensity. Also, what people tend to class as flashy, is merely natural improvisational self-expression. It's not flashy if it's easy to you..

Have you seen the film footage of the dvorak improvisation on youtube? It appeared not too long ago and I hadn't seen it before anywhere. It's technically outrageous, but there's a simple musical quality in how he brings out the pathos and seriousness of the melody. I heard a later version of the same melody where the complexity contributes relatively little (like in his jazz) but the filmed version is truly remarkable.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Have you seen the film footage of the dvorak improvisation on youtube? It appeared not too long ago and I hadn't seen it before anywhere. It's technically outrageous, but there's a simple musical quality in how he brings out the pathos and seriousness of the melody. I heard a later version of the same melody where the complexity contributes relatively little (like in his jazz) but the filmed version is truly remarkable.

This video?

It's very fine playing, a unique musician if you ask me.

[nyiregyhazi]

This video?

It's very fine playing, a unique musician if you ask me.

That's it. Perhaps it's partly the novelty of only discovering it recently, but for me it's the only film that shows his full improvisation skills and musicianship as one. Obviously the film of him warming up is remarkable, but is more a case of warming up than attempting to express anything profound. This film really shows the best of both aspects.

[ajspiano]

I hope your English teachers' therapy sessions are going well.

Know amownt ov theruppy wood soulv there ishoos.

[j_menz]

Know amownt ov theruppy wood soulv there ishoos.

[ajspiano]

*you're

[j_menz]

*you're

You'dathunk I'd have noticed that. 

And wipe that smug smirk off your dial.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Obviously the film of him warming up is remarkable, but is more a case of warming up than attempting to express anything profound. This film really shows the best of both aspects.

Yes, agreed, it's definitely musically better than the warmup video which is really just segments of pieces thrown together as barely connected chunks. Footnote re warmup video - my teacher was working at the BBC at the time and said the cameramen were flabbergasted and all BBC filming protocol went out the window.

[ted]

Jarrett, I think, although greatness is an imprecise notion in improvisation because of the solipsistic nature of the activity. I am not keen on all of Jarrett's specific sounds or what he has to say, but his solo concerts have certainly helped to make free improvisation more acceptable as a personal creative medium in itself, rather than as a hidebound imitation of compositional forms of the past, or a type of competitive mental arithmetic. In this particular liberating sense he is great, even if just because he is the first to have done it publicly.

[falala]

That must be one of the better Tatum recordings - I actually managed to listen all the way to the end, and the part after about 1.00 even swung, a little. Still reminded me of everything I hate about him though.

I'm afraid I just can't hear the music in it. It always sounds to me like paint-by-numbers job, full of undigested bits of flashy brilliance strung together for no particular musical reason. It's like he's got some sort of OCD or something that makes him return to the same cliches over and over again, just in case the audience might forget what a great virtuoso he is.

The Cziffra is certainly interesting. Doesn't swing at all, but you wouldn't expect it to. Full of wacky harmonic stuff though. Hats off to anyone who can be such an amazing classical pianist and also do something like that to such a standard. In Bach and Mozart's day it was assumed that a professional keyboard player had to be able to improvise. These days it's much less so among classical pianists, which is a shame.

But my improvising virtuoso prize would have to go to Oscar Peterson, who gets around the piano like a demon but always in the service of music, and always swinging.

[cuberdrift]

The marvelous thing about virtuoso jazz piano players (e.g. Peterson, Tatum, Powell, etc.) is their ability to come up with something technically phenomenal yet in the service of the music they're improvising on.

Cziffra is no doubt a monster as well but while he shocks anyone with the abundance of his technical facility, I doubt his improvisations are a real challenge. It is much easier to show off technical brilliance without the swing and strict time jazz players impose upon their improvisations. Go listen to any "super-stride" recording of Art Tatum, for instance, and you'll understand how difficult it is to improvise at speeds of quarter=320!

And how can people assume Bach...or Liszt, was the greatest improviser in history? We can only guess how they played...

[sevencircles]

I really like Richard Grayson´s improvisations. My cup of tea for sure.

Check out the clip below. Pretty remarkable  if he didn´t prepare before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upFQcITxX9A

Art Tatum and Cziffra were a bit overkill sometimes. I really like the way Tatum could spice up a boogie Woogie or a ragtime though.

[brendan765]

good improvisation technique is far more about musical depth than playing facility. Improvising something flashy is far easier than improvising something with a solid musical direction, form and counterpoint between parts.

And with that in mind my vote goes to bach also.

I would have to disagree. It all has to do with how you were musically trained. Bach was Baroque so he's obviously going to write like that. Chopin was romantic and was obviously going to write like that. Now we know it was hard for Chopin to compose using larger forms as well as classical or baroque counterpoint. But, if Bach was to time travel forward to Chopins era. I'm sure he would be very challenged in writing something flashy as to something fugue like.

[gvans]

Years ago I attended a concert performed by Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock, playing on two black dragons face to face. Man, those two guys could improvise. Not a written note anywhere, and they explored sonic realms over the course of the evening that I didn't even know existed.

Just sayin.'

[outin]

The answer could as well be some forgotten Baroque musician we have never even heard of... Fame and ability do not always go together. And in those times people moved around less and the performances were not preserved.

Some people seem to think that Bach lived in a planet of his own and was not influenced by anyone or had no shortcomings... But the world was a very different place those times and having a good position and backup from the church/the nobility was as important as being talented and accomplished when it comes to fame and opportunities.

I cannot even take this thread seriously until one of you have found a time machine...

[j_menz]

I cannot even take this thread seriously until one of you have found a time machine...

I took you on a ride in it next month. Have you forgotten already? 

[outin]

I took you on a ride in it next month. Have you forgotten already? 

There must have been a time paradox somewhere...

[j_menz]

a time paradox

Is that what those vodka mix thingies were, or, rather, will be?

[outin]

Is that what those vodka mix thingies were, or, rather, will be?

Alcohol is known to be very dangerous for time travellers...

[cuberdrift]

Just really, how hard is it to learn and play a Tatum transcription? I've heard many times that the basic techniques needed to tackle them sometimes even outclass that of Liszt's. Is this true? It seems doubtful, and a glance at his improvisations on sheet music definitely never made me think they could be considered a serious challenge, as opposed to difficult classical piano repertoire. They simply aren't as densely notated...

Has anyone here ever attempted his Tiger Rag, Tea for Two, Sweet Lorraine...?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Just really, how hard is it to learn and play a Tatum transcription? I've heard many times that the basic techniques needed to tackle them sometimes even outclass that of Liszt's. Is this true? It seems doubtful, and a glance at his improvisations on sheet music definitely never made me think they could be considered a serious challenge, as opposed to difficult classical piano repertoire. They simply aren't as densely notated...

Has anyone here ever attempted his Tiger Rag, Tea for Two, Sweet Lorraine...?

I doubt they are that difficult. No direct personal experience, but I do know a pianist who played some Tatum and Rachmaninov in a masterclass, and she clearly found the latter harder.

[ted]

Cecil Taylor ?

[cuberdrift]

I doubt they are that difficult. No direct personal experience, but I do know a pianist who played some Tatum and Rachmaninov in a masterclass, and she clearly found the latter harder.

Then why are they so revered? IIRC in some article pianist Steven Mayer claims Tatum transcriptions were some of the hardest he ever tackled...

Cecil Taylor ?

Care to show us some of his hot stuff? 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I doubt they are that difficult. No direct personal experience, but I do know a pianist who played some Tatum and Rachmaninov in a masterclass, and she clearly found the latter harder.

Then why are they so revered? IIRC in some article pianist Steven Mayer claims Tatum transcriptions were some of the hardest he ever tackled...

Are they revered purely for technical reasons though? I didn't think so. It may also be that they are harder if you come at them from a purely classical background (which the pianist I mentioned didn't). I am surmising though. I also wouldn't class Steven Mayer as a technique monster.

[awesom_o]

Care to show us some of his hot stuff? 

[future_maestro]

Probably Bach, Beethoven, or Liszt. Beethoven also did competitions, in which he never lost.
These guys were the masters at improvisation (& many other things), and they have never been replicated, even today. That's why there is no such thing as a modern day Bach or Beethoven.

[vansh]

Speaking of warmups, this account has an interesting side detail on the Bach vs Marchand duel:

https://listverse.com/2011/12/27/7-classical-piano-duels/

Apparently, Marchand didn't slink away in the middle of the night or anything like that. Bach got there earlier and started warming up, and when Marchand arrived he decided it wasn't worth the humiliation after just hearing Bach warm up.