OG members: Have you noticed younger members can't write?

[faulty_damper]

So I've been on this forum for 10 years now and over the past decade, I've noticed that newer/younger members don't write very well.  Grammar and spelling mistakes abound but the most serious is the lack of punctuation.  The second most serious is the fact that the writing is disorganized and finding their actual question is like searching for Waldo. (A Where's Waldo? reference.)  I've spoken to University professors who've taught a long time (since the 90s or earlier) and the biggest complaint about their students in the past few years is that they can't write. Reading this and other forums, I think I understand what they mean.  I can mostly identify young persons, early 20s or younger, just by how they write.

[j_menz]

Grammar and spelling mistakes abound but the most serious is the lack of punctuation.

Like leaving out a comma? (after abound)

University lecturers were bemoaning the decline in writing skills back when I was a student in much the same manner, and that was more than what you (rather tactlessly, I might say) call a "long time" ago.  There is, I suspect a little of the rose coloured memory about it on their part.

Of course, as one of the resident pedants here, I agree that the general standard is lamentable.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Well why the heck would you need to worry about grammar and spelling?

Autocorrect fixes everything for you so you don't gotta know all the rules.

That's why!

But actually though, who cares about spelling and grammar on Facebook?  It's Facebook, not a masters thesis.

[faulty_damper]

Like leaving out a comma? (after abound)

I've asked English teachers about the use of the comma because contemporary writing often leaves it out such as in the example you used.  I was taught to comma everything but that was back then.  Standards have changed and the idea is more important since one leads directly into the next; the prior idea need not be separated by a comma since it's not as important as the following clause, "the most serious..."  If both ideas were equal in weight, then a comma should be used, almost like having two sentences.  The comma, is more efficient in reading.

I was born in the early 80s so I went to HS in the 90s.  The writing instruction was abysmal and I wasn't taught how to write well at all.  (I had an English teacher who gave spelling tests in HS.   )   According to a research article, the reason for this was due to a change of standards which put emphasis away from writing.  The researchers, who were university professors, recommended implementing writing standards into the HS curriculum, which were largely absent.

[senanserat]

In my defense I don't naturally speak english so I am prone to think in my language's syntax's.

[outin]

I'm just lazy sometimes...and it's good to keep jmenz busy....

[faulty_damper]

There's a difference between the writing of non-English speakers and the younger native English speakers.  I've noticed that the non-native English speakers' writing is actually more comprehensible than the younger native English speakers, which is ironic.

Well why the heck would you need to worry about grammar and spelling?
Autocorrect fixes everything for you so you don't gotta know all the rules.
That's why!
But actually though, who cares about spelling and grammar on Facebook?  It's Facebook, not a masters thesis.

And this is an illustration of my original point.  I'm sure it was sarcasm... but then I've read your other posts.  

This is how you could have written your post:
"Why do we need to worry about spelling when we have autocorrect to fix our writing?  This is Facebook, not a masters thesis!"

Notice that this revision is both concise and immediately comprehensible.  It's very organized as one idea leads naturally to the next.  It also takes up much less space to communicate.

[senanserat]

There's a difference between the writing of non-English speakers and the younger native English speakers.  I've noticed that the non-native English speakers' writing is actually more comprehensible than the younger native English speakers, which is ironic.

That's a relief I though this thread was a barb directed to me.

...what? I am self conscious!

[faulty_damper]

I didn't even know you were a non-native English speaker/writer.  Thanks!  We Americans can be idiots.  Most of them teach our children in schools.

[ted]

Usage, in its nature, is constantly changing. Some of these changes are useful and effective while others are pointless, ugly or both. While wishing to avoid a curmudgeonly pedantic stance, I usually try to err on the side of correctness, especially in written English, such action being the lesser of two evils. This principle was taught throughout my school years and I have never found it lacking. At worst you can be thought highbrow, but you will never be wrong. 

[Bob]

I was surprised by it.  Do anything that involves writing... Oi...  I'm not an English teacher though.

[pianoplunker]

So I've been on this forum for 10 years now and over the past decade, I've noticed that newer/younger members don't write very well.  Grammar and spelling mistakes abound but the most serious is the lack of punctuation.  The second most serious is the fact that the writing is disorganized and finding their actual question is like searching for Waldo. (A Where's Waldo? reference.)  I've spoken to University professors who've taught a long time (since the 90s or earlier) and the biggest complaint about their students in the past few years is that they can't write. Reading this and other forums, I think I understand what they mean.  I can mostly identify young persons, early 20s or younger, just by how they write.

I think anybody under 30 years of age is full of sh*t regardless of how they write.

[quantum]

Having gone through English speaking elementary and high schools, I can attest to the lack of education with regard to written communication.  Yes, we were taught the mechanics of grammar and spelling, but that pretty much was it.  There was very little instruction on actual writing, only mind-numbing writing assignments.  There was very little critical evaluation of the writing, very little in terms of education that would lead to better writing skills.  What good is leaning syntax if one is not taught how to express ideas through that syntax. 

I have learned far more about English and writing from undergrad and graduate music classes, then actual English classes in the elementary and secondary levels. 

***

IMO, todays youth need to be educated on a clearer delineation of communication platforms in use.  The proliferation of ever-evolving technology and its related communication platforms, demands a need for education on what constitutes clear and effective expression of ideas on each. 

[swagmaster420x]

i'm a bad writer, but i can write with correct punctuation/grammar pretty easily. i just don't online for stylistic purposes.

[senanserat]

I think anybody under 30 years of age is full of sh*t regardless of how they write.

D;

[ajspiano]

Well I can write properly but often don't. Shoot me.

However, and this is directed at you R4eva.. if you do not atleast know how to, you are going to suffer certain problems later in life whenever you need to read something that has legal consequences of any kind.

As a side note, maybe the forum could introduce an error message for poor grammar that disables the post. Similar to the way a php script will fail if its not written properly.

All I'm saying is, when I write in PHP I don't skip on correct syntax - even if it might annoy j_menz.

[outin]

As a side note, maybe the forum could introduce an error message for poor grammar that disables the post. Similar to the way a php script will fail if its not written properly.

Why would we need that, we already have Jmenz 

[outin]

Having gone through English speaking elementary and high schools, I can attest to the lack of education with regard to written communication. 

There's also the difference in learning new languages. Your own language you learn to speak first and write later and the grammar will be introduced last. Not everyone bothers at that stage. But when learning a foreign language (at least in my experience) you are taught all of these at the same time. When the grammar plays a more important role in the learning process, it is also learned better.

When it comes to my own language, I did learn my grammar quite well and can write correctly (although some of the rules have changed after my school days). But many people really weren't interested in learning grammar at all and you can see that when they write.

Also reading is fundamental for learning to write well. I have noticed that many young people do not read books at all anymore 

[quantum]

All I'm saying is, when I write in PHP I don't skip on correct syntax

What would happen if we started returning errors for forum posts  

Hmmm ....

Parse error: parse error in "is jus learnin pathetic sonata HELP need tut on lhands tremloz yo!" on line 22.

[ajspiano]

What would happen if we started returning errors for forum posts  

Hmmm ....

Parse error: parse error in "is jus learnin pathetic sonata HELP need tut on lhands tremloz yo!" on line 22.

I think that the syntax should require certain headers, and yes/no variables for basic approaches to a piece.

For example:

Error : "checked fingering on multiple editions at imslp" not specified.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

However, and this is directed at you R4eva.. if you do not atleast know how to, you are going to suffer certain problems later in life whenever you need to read something that has legal consequences of any kind.
.

Yeah yeah I know...  I'm young but not dumb.  Well...  Yeah!

even if it might annoy j_menz

You mean yourself?

[timothy42b]

I'm a native English speaker so I don't know if the following distinction applies more universally.  I did live in Europe briefly but didn't get beyond restaurant level German.

There is a difference between the rules for informal spoken conversation and more formal written communication.

Those of us between my age and about 30 years younger tend to approach a forum as if we were writing a letter. We pay a little attention to spelling and grammar, and may even proofread and edit. 

Those younger than that may never have written a letter.  They approach a forum as if they were having a conversation with friends.  They don't see a reason to be careful with oral speech, and neither do I.   But when they apply the same lack of rules to a forum, it irritates oldtimers like me, because we see it as writing. 

Which it is.

[faulty_damper]

Those younger than that may never have written a letter.  They approach a forum as if they were having a conversation with friends.  They don't see a reason to be careful with oral speech, and neither do I.   But when they apply the same lack of rules to a forum, it irritates oldtimers like me, because we see it as writing.  

This reminds me of a professor I once had.  He told us about one student that turned in a paper written in txt spch.  The guy replaced "4" for for, "r" for are, didn't punctuate nor use paragraphs, amongst other problems.  R U SRS?  Yes, he was.  Subsequently, every time the first paper assignment was submitted, he's had to stop teaching sociology and start teaching writing.  The only paper that he received that didn't need writing instruction was mine.  *sigh*.

[j_menz]

Why would we need that, we already have Jmenz 

Because I am reactive and a script would be proactive. Also, I am occasionally beset with niceness, whereas a script would avoid such indulgences.

[Bob]

What's OG?  Older, Grammier? (or Grammiar...)

[senanserat]

Old Gspice.

[Bob]

Over Grown?

Old Grump?   Haha.   Dear Old Grumpy Piano Street members....


I was thinking Oxford Grammar actually.

[Bob]

OG is also some kind of department stores card.

Original Gansta?


I believe that's it... Original Gangster.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110822135337AAJ6AFt
"6. OG
 An OG is normally a member of a gang Who has been around for some time and has put in a large amount of work e.g. Killing enemy gang members. Therefore he is considered a more respected/ higher class member in the gang."


Ganster Bob?   I think I'd be a regular Gangster rather than a Gangsta.  Or maybe ganstas are female?  Except that could be politically incorrect.  We'd have to go with Gang People.

[Bob]

*Bob looks up Gangster Bob images and is not pleased with the result.*

[Bob]

*Bob sets up.*  I found a gangster piano here....

[j_menz]

What's OG?  Older, Grammier? (or Grammiar...)

Surely it's Old Giggleswickian, though the relevance escapes me.

The thought that it might be a case of faulty trying to be hip is just too disturbing.

[senanserat]

You guys can be such a fogies but I still wub u all (except you)

[quantum]

Bob, don't you mean to be looking for a piano case, as opposed to a piano.  You know, the case where you put your "instrument."  Or is that too old school? 

[Bob]

Oh.  You mean the "other" grand piano.  Keep the lid closed on that one until it needs to be played.  Music for everyone stored in that piano.

If we're really friendly, we can send a string quartet out to entertain someone.

[ranniks]

Not all people on this board have English as their primary language.

English is the third language I learned.

[faulty_damper]

I'm going to stop replying to posts that are written ineligibly from now on.  Until they learn how to write properly, they won't be getting my response.

My new pet pieve:

Spacing out sentences like they are paragraphs.

When they aren't.

Just like this.

Dog gamnit!  It's just ONE paragraph! Go back to school and kick your English teachers' butts and force them to teach you how to use a paragraph!   

[timothy42b]

That's still 100 times more readable than a long post with no paragraphs.

[senanserat]

I'm going to stop replying to posts that are written ineligibly from now on.  Until they learn how to write properly, they won't be getting my response.

My new pet pieve:

Spacing out sentences like they are paragraphs.

When they aren't.

Just like this.

Dog gamnit!  It's just ONE paragraph! Go back to school and kick your English teachers' butts and force them to teach you how to use a paragraph!   

what
do
you
mean
this
is
like
***
poetry
but
sexier
derp

[outin]

I'm going to stop replying to posts that are written ineligibly from now on.  Until they learn how to write properly, they won't be getting my response.

Some people might start writing ineligibly on purpose now

[hfmadopter]

Wow, this thread evolved quickly, I'm still back on the comma before and, and the comma before but part !!! I was taught back in the 50's and 60's, that before those two words it was rare to use the comma. It really depends on the sentence meaning going forward into the rest of the statement. And, ( as I just wrote) you would be downgraded for an essay exam by starting a new sentence with either word as well. Again, limited use. You will often see me writing with limited use of a comma before and, and but as well. I believe, the premise was to find a better way to vocalize your meaning, so as not to use those words as such, in either case.

I can recall thinking I was smart to write a certain way, just to be downgraded for the very thing I was being so smart about !

In school in the 80's ? I was in my 30's then and things had changed a whole lot. My kids were in school then and the school systems in the US had abolished a lot of things . Standards just continued down hill from there.

[faulty_damper]

hfmadopter,
Do you realize how tedious it was to read your sentences with all those commas in place?  The meaning was difficult to ascertain.  The ability to communicate clearly, concisely, and efficiently is what caused the reduction in prevalence of the comma.  Many other words, such as "the", have dropped in prevalence as well.  It really isn't necessary to use it when it's obvious what is being spoken about.  So the necessity of concision usually Darwinizes certain aspects of language.  However, not using paragraphs correctly is a pain in the ass.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was never taught how to use the paragraph, either.  The only kind of instruction I received throughout years of schooling was "each topic gets its own paragraph." 

[pianoman53]

So if I just make a grammatical error, you won't reply anything? Yeah, I can see how this might be useful.

[hfmadopter]

hfmadopter,
Do you realize how tedious it was to read your sentences with all those commas in place?  The meaning was difficult to ascertain.  The ability to communicate clearly, concisely, and efficiently is what caused the reduction in prevalence of the comma.  Many other words, such as "the", have dropped in prevalence as well.  It really isn't necessary to use it when it's obvious what is being spoken about.  So the necessity of concision usually Darwinizes certain aspects of language.  However, not using paragraphs correctly is a pain in the ass.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was never taught how to use the paragraph, either.  The only kind of instruction I received throughout years of schooling was "each topic gets its own paragraph." 

[hfmadopter]

hfmadopter,
Do you realize how tedious it was to read your sentences with all those commas in place? 

Yes, absolutely !

[Bob]

'Sup, hommies.





I think about 4-5 lines is what I prefer on a forum post.  More than that and it's a block of text that only gets a skim.

My posts are more stream of consciousness.  And sometimes unconsciousnessness.

[ranniks]

I'm going to stop replying to posts that are written ineligibly from now on.  Until they learn how to write properly, they won't be getting my response.

My new pet pieve:

Spacing out sentences like they are paragraphs.

When they aren't.

Just like this.

Dog gamnit!  It's just ONE paragraph! Go back to school and kick your English teachers' butts and force them to teach you how to use a paragraph!   

You sound like a douche.

[Bob]

Potential gangster garb...





*Bob is thinking old-time gangsters probably never used the word garb.*


With a bow tie?

[faulty_damper]

You sound like a douche.

Yeah, this is the reason young kids can't write nowadays.  They think they're right about everything so if no one understands what they're saying, it can't be their fault.  Their audience must have hearing and/or reading problems.

[ranniks]

Yeah, this is the reason young kids can't write nowadays.  They think they're right about everything so if no one understands what they're saying, it can't be their fault.  Their audience must have hearing and/or reading problems.

'Young kids'? You baffle me with your 'look at me I'm older so I'm up here looking down on you being young'. Do you realize how many older gentlemen Nikola Tesla baffled when he was young?

This is an internet forum, relax, gosh. No need to be some grammar/spelling hungry warrior.

[faulty_damper]

I'm just joking around. No need to get your grammar all in order.