Playing repeated chords quickly

[th3j9]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently learning Czerny's Op. 365, No. 45. This is the only recording I could find of it:

. My question is how do you play the repeated chords so quickly (namely in the first 15 seconds or so). Is it all wrist action? If so, could some one explain it to me? Thank you in advance.

[faulty_damper]

The example in the video, that's how you aren't supposed to play it.  He just goes down repeatedly which wastes a lot of energy as well as requires a lot of practice.  Instead, the motion is a rocking forward motion for many chords, then reset, and rock forward again.  This way, you aren't repeatedly going down at the same angle of attack.

Be sure to try both ways.  You'll notice that the way in the video is exhausting but the way I described is quite easy.

[th3j9]

Thanks for the reply. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by "rocking motion". Does this apply to all sections of the piece? Do you have a video explaining this?

[faulty_damper]

Put your 1 and 5 on a flat surface, like you are playing octaves.  Now rock it forward and backward.  That's what I mean.  You'll notice the wrist flexes to accommodate the motion which is what you want.  Each time you strike the keys, you are doing so at a different wrist angle which uses different proportions of muscles.  This works for repeated chords but there may be other situations that require it.

[th3j9]

Hmm, I must be doing something wrong, since when I tried it your way it seems much harder haha. I used to play the repeated chords/octaves using only my arm strength (ie bending at the elbow only and moving my entire forearm) but that was rather tiring. So I figured only using the wrist would be better. I'm now practicing using an exaggerated wrist motion (kind of like dribbling a basketball) my fingers go almost vertical after every strike. Is this what I SHOULDN'T be doing?

[faulty_damper]

The rocking motion is very small.  You'll only see the motion when you play 3 or more groupings, but not 2.

Also, what do you mean by harder? More muscle fatigue or a coordination issue?

edit:
I should also mention that you aren't purposefully rocking the wrist.  It just happens incidentally.

[swagmaster420x]

faulty damper can you demonstrate with a video of your or someone elses playing? i really need to learn this technique as well for a piece im playing

[faulty_damper]

How do you people record video?  My cell phone, while it allows video recording, doesn't allow me to upload onto my computer.  There's some issue with the blue tooth connection.

[swagmaster420x]

How do you people record video?  My cell phone, while it allows video recording, doesn't allow me to upload onto my computer.  There's some issue with the blue tooth connection.

if you don't have a camera, i think smartphone/tablet is easiest. you should be able to borrow from a friend or something.

[faulty_damper]

if you don't have a camera, i think smartphone/tablet is easiest. you should be able to borrow from a friend or something.

I don't have any of those things.

Anyway, the movement is the same movement that I described in the 'how to do effective fortissimo' threads.

Punch" the keyboard.  Forcing your arm down wastes a lot of energy and requires lots of muscular conditioning and building.

Pretend your hand is playing handball and your "ball" will strike the keyboard and then rebound off the fallboard.  Speed is what makes the hammers strike the strings faster, not strength.  This is the general description that should make it easy.  There are other smaller movements that will make it even easier and much more comfortable.  Figure them out yourself and come back and tell us about them.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=30037.0

There was some misunderstanding about the word "punch" being taken too literally.  That's just the effect when the dynamic needs to be loud.  However, when the dynamic is soft, the movement is the same, but slower, like gently nudging it.

Nota bene:
Because the initial angle of attack is at a downward angle, the following repetition will be at a slightly higher angle, and the following at an even steeper angle.  Even though multiple chords are played, it looks like the hand is only making one large movement, that rocking motion. In contrast, if you watch that video again, you can see that the pianist's hand is making up and down motions for each and every single chord, like jackhammers.  That's a huge waste of energy.

[th3j9]

By harder I mean that it just seems so awkward, but I guess that's expected whenever trying something new. If the rocking motion is not intentional, what exactly is causing the movement? For example, in the video the movement is caused by his hands moving up and down at the wrist. This is what I'm understanding from your post:
1) Play a single chord
2) Raise your wrist slightly, causing your hand/fingers to move downward. This will be the second chord
3) Repeat

Is this correct lol? If I took a video of my trying this very slowly, would you critique it?

[faulty_damper]

No, that's not correct because you are purposefully raising the wrist.  To understand why that rocking motion occurs, try this:

Play an octave by pushing the arm slightly forward and downward.  Notice that the angle of the wrist rises after you play.  Now play three (or more) quick octaves.  The wrist naturally rises after each strike; the hand looks like it's rocking forward.

The forward rocking motion is the path of least resistance.  It's like slicing tomatoes; you can chop, pull, or push.  Chopping, like the pianist in the video, wastes energy.  Pulling can't be done well because the body is in the way of the arm.  But pushing allows the knife to slice through unimpeded.  In terms of piano-playing, you are pushing the arm forward because it's the most efficient motion.

Edit: Yes, I can critique videos.

[th3j9]

&feature=youtu.be

I'm just playing the chords here. This is what I meant by hard: it feels extremely awkward, hence why I'm going so slow. Thanks.

[faulty_damper]

The video hasn't even started yet and I can tell that you're sitting too low.  The other main issue is that your hands are striking too low of an angle, like you are petting the keys.  Don't pet the keys!  The motion is still a downward attack, but it's not straight down.


1. First sit higher.  At least 1.5 inches.  Maybe 2".
2. Then play twice as fast.  Speed is important because you'll feel the muscles fatigue if you're doing it wrong.  Aim for ease and comfort.  You'll never figure out the motion playing so slowly.

[th3j9]

Allright, here's take 2. I'm sitting 1.5" higher. Feels weird, like I have to hunch over a bit. And I'm playing a bit faster as well.

&feature=youtu.be

[faulty_damper]

You still need to be a little bit higher. I can see that you're lowering your wrist to play like you are used to. However, I assume that you've never sat so high before so you're body is going to need to adapt to the higher position.

Also, raise your wrists a little bit to play those repeated chords.  It will help in fast passages.
Here's a painting to illustrate:


The reason Liszt sits so high is because he has leverage in fast and loud passages.  Sitting low does not allow ease.

[swagmaster420x]

try playing multiple notes with the energy of one downward motion. the momentum from your first strike should carry over into the next, so it's like your hand bounces naturally to hit the chord again.

[th3j9]

  That first picture looks quite painful. Do you actually play like that for all your pieces, or just when it's needed? Same with the seat height, what's the reason for a taller seat? I'll get another video tomorrow with a higher seat, and I'll try a higher wrist angle. Should the end result look something like this?

[faulty_damper]

No, I do not sit as high as in the painting and no, it is not painful at all.  But the painting was to illustrate the angle of the wrists.  The higher seat height allows you to achieve a slight angle of the wrists in these kinds of pieces.  It makes playing easier.  In soft melodic pieces, it is unnecessary.

As for the video, he's doing exactly the same thing as the first pianist: down, down, down like jackhammers.  You can see that even before he concludes the A section that he's already tired and appears to be sweating.  He plays quite well, though, but he makes the piece look difficult to play when it isn't.

[th3j9]

Hmmm so something like this?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHz4OjARK88

[faulty_damper]

For playing octaves and chords loudly and fast, yes, you should angle your wrists like Lisitsa.  However, she is sitting a bit too low so she has to move her body to compensate for the low height.  If she sat higher, her body would be much more still.

[th3j9]

I see. Just to clarify again, the rocking motion is a result of the high wrist angle+angled strike (as opposed to up and down), correct? So my cues should just be high wrist+angled strike?

[faulty_damper]

No, you start the motion with a flat hand and with each strike, it bounces to a higher angle.

Try two different ways to feel the difference:
1. Jackhammers like in the videos.  Feel the tension in the muscles.
2. Straight down and let the motion rock forward naturally.  Use your wrist to play the chords.

[faulty_damper]

I've found a better analogy to describe the rocking forward motion I mentioned earlier.  This may make what I'm talking about much easier to apply.

Pretend that your fingers are like sprinter's feet.  The keys are like starting blocks.  When the gun goes off, you push off the starting blocks moving toward the fallboard.  When you push off, you'll notice that the wrist rocks forward.

If you use technique of playing chords compared to the jackhammers technique, you'll immediately feel that it's much easier and uses less energy.  I hope I've been of some help and I really didn't mean to confuse you.  It's a difficult motion to describe in words.