Arpeggios and scales - why am I not improving?

[lazze]

Dear fellow pianists, teachers and students,

I write to you in this hour, because of a growing frustraion.

I'm a rhythmical pianist, I play jazz (try to) and boogie woogie (professional level).
A part of my piano studies at the conservatory is to learn "basic piano skills", which are of course very useful. I've played for many years, but never actually learnt the basics like arpeggios and scales.
I'm now trying to play in all 12 keys, metronome set to 100 BPM, and I'm just not getting anywhere. I try to relax as my teacher has instructed me to, use the correct fingerings and it's.. just not working, not very well at least.
I practice scales as - quarter notes, quarter triplets, dotted 8ths, reverse dotted 8ths, straight 8ths, 8th note triplets and 16th notes. Same with the arpeggios.

Do you have any suggestions as to what I could try out?

For arpeggios, I use R.H. 1-2-3 and L.H. 5-3-2 for the "standard" arpeggios. I didn't get to the other ones like B-flat etc. yet. NOR did I get to playing a different rotation of them.
For scales, I use the conventional fingerings and I'm trying to study the little "skip" when turning the thumb under.
I'm also using a Hanon complete book, I have arrived at exercise 21.

I would love to hear any suggestions you have!

Thanks a lot,

Lasse

[quantum]

Studying pure technical elements can get tedious, especially if you are trying to learn all of the elements in all keys, within a short period of time.  Perhaps try to concentrate on a few contrasting keys at first so you can build your skill while not being overwhelmed with volumes of work.  Maybe something like
Major: C, E, Ab
Minor: A, G#, Bb

You may wish to study real pieces of music that include these technical elements.  Maybe look at some Mozart or Scarlatti sonatas.  You say you play boogie at a pro level, so you are probably ok to do some Chopin etudes. 

[m1469]

Aside from knowing the basics of what rigid and relaxed muscles feel like or how they are attained, one of the key elements to "relaxed" playing of any type is developing and having reference points within your body and on the piano keyboard, from which all of your motions relate to/originate from, and to which your motions aim.  Your spine and sit bones are your physical center and are the starting points in your relationship (and the relationship of your physical motions) to the keys, and having specific points on the keys that you aim for makes the relationship between the keys and your body more concrete, dependable, and map-able.  

It is a constant exploration and refining, and even though I can explain the basic principle in a couple of sentences, the practice of it is something that takes personal contact, focus, desire, and patience.

[lazze]

@Quantum

Do you have any specific exercises in mind?
One of the things that really frustrates me in music and reading sheet music is that I don't know how to do fingerings. I can look at a phrase and say "I have no idea how to put my fingers here". I'm assuming there's some set / right way of doing it? Usually the easiest one would be the correct, I suppose? I have no knowledge of how to put fingerings on any kind of music, only what I have figured out by chance, and that might even only work for me.

@m1469
What kind of points would that be? I've never heard talk about that before.

[dima_76557]

metronome set to 100 BPM

Using the metronome is something you should do only to check technique you have already acquired. Until then, I would strongly advise against using the instrument.

[m1469]

What kind of points would that be? I've never heard talk about that before.

One of the most important reasons for having specific points is how a fixed point of aim on the keys, over the course of a long stretch of the keyboard (as in a 4 octave scale, for example), alters what is required from your body or affects how your body relates to the keys.  And, because that interaction between the keys and your body changes, I won't try to be more specific than that.  

As an experiment though, consider the size of your fingertip print to the length of a black key (black keys are the great reference points on the piano in general) - your fingertip print only takes up a fraction of the length of the entire key.  Instead of aiming generally, then, for a black key, pick a very specific point that is the size of your fingertip on that key to aim for, and as part of your experiment maintain that same point over the course of 4 octaves in either a scale or arpeggio.  Go slowly and observe what this demands from/how it affects your physical apparatus.

[quantum]

Regarding fingerings: when you come across a familiar scale, chord or arpeggio pattern, one can usually first try to apply the standard fingering to that pattern.  If that is not optimal, one can try to work out a different fingering using similar patterns.  

When fingering scales, think of groups of notes under the hand as opposed to individual notes.  When fingering arpeggios, think of the sold chord that can be played under the hand.  

When one comes across a fingering challenge, I like to use this approach: start at the goal and work backwards from it.  For example: Goal is to end scale using finger 5 on note E.  From that point work backwards towards the problem area, which may be several notes or even measures back, and the solution will reveal itself.  

Have you tried using edited editions with printed fingerings when learning pieces?  They are probably best used under the guidance of a teacher, as some of these editors may have hand octopus tentacles as hands.  Nonetheless, a well-fingered edition will give you an idea of how to approach the subject.  

When you are working your way through a piece, be decisive in your fingering.  Write it down if you can't remember.  Stick to the fingering you decide, and don't change it unless you have reason to.  Being inconsistent in your fingering, and changing it to what ever feels convenient at the moment will not help you to learn the skill of fingering a piece for yourself.  At this point in your learning, you need to develop a sense of seeing and feeling fingering patterns within the music.

[pianoman8]

Everytime you practice is it with a metrononme? Try to practice slowly without a metronome. As someone else stated recently, try not to work on all the scales every day. Just choose a couple scales and concentrate on a few (2-4) at a time. How do you practice? Try to stay concentrated when practicing. You are much better off to concentrate and practice slowly for 10 than practice mindlessly for a half hour. Here is some more information that may help:

[gregh]

When you say it's not working, do you mean fingering skills or retention?

I've found one of the best ways to become familiar with a new scale is to transpose into it, like something in D played in E. Also change modes, like take something written in C major and play it in C minor. It might be a rough start (go slow), but it shouldn't take very long before the target scale feels natural.

[quantum]

I've found one of the best ways to become familiar with a new scale is to transpose into it, like something in D played in E. Also change modes, like take something written in C major and play it in C minor. It might be a rough start (go slow), but it shouldn't take very long before the target scale feels natural.

Becoming aware of the similarities and differences between the different scales will bring to light patterns which tend to repeat in these technical elements.  Noticing the gestalt shift between different modes can be helpful in learning the material.

[faulty_damper]

It's not an issue of fingering since fingerings are limited to begin with.  It's an issue of movement.  There are a couple of movements that, if you get any one of them wrong, the whole thing falls apart.

hand - rotation
wrist - bent
forearm - shift & angled
forearm - forward & back

[pianosfun]

You need to develope your own approach to scales. The scales that you would learn could be used in the way that you want for music's sake.

Don't automaticaully do things because other people are doing them, but imitate them as a means to a better end (You'll need some advice, still). Be patient (Start out slowly, very very slowly at your own pace). Go deep (Like a tree's roots).
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Haha, I talk metaphorical because others answer the questions better with specific terminology.

[brogers70]

I think that the only way to get anything from scales and arpeggios is to get yourself into a frame of mind in which you can enjoy doing them. Have your teacher show you the ideal movement for one or two scales, and then practice them very slowly, with as perfect relaxation and movement as you can. You can use doing scales to teach yourself how to relax, because there's not much in the way of music or fingerings to think about, once you learn them. Play them very slowly, almost as a kind of meditation for many weeks before you start to work on increasing speed. YOu may think that this is a waste of time, especially if you already play fairly complex music, but it's not a waste at all. It will pay off.

[faulty_damper]

I think that the only way to get anything from scales and arpeggios is to get yourself into a frame of mind in which you can enjoy doing them. Have your teacher show you the ideal movement for one or two scales, and then practice them very slowly, with as perfect relaxation and movement as you can. You can use doing scales to teach yourself how to relax, because there's not much in the way of music or fingerings to think about, once you learn them. Play them very slowly, almost as a kind of meditation for many weeks before you start to work on increasing speed. YOu may think that this is a waste of time, especially if you already play fairly complex music, but it's not a waste at all. It will pay off.

This is not correct.  Playing arpeggios and scales fast requires different movements than playing them slowly.

[brogers70]

This is not correct.  Playing arpeggios and scales fast requires different movements than playing them slowly.

That is precisely why I told him to have his teacher show him the ideal motions, first. You practice the motions required for fast scales, but you practice them slowly.