Is Mozart really easy?

[cuberdrift]

I have the feeling that Mozart's piano repertoire is often generally considered 'basic' or 'uninteresting' compared to the works of, say, Bach, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, etc. After all, is it not enough that the performer play the notes neatly, at the tempo, with proper phrasing and dynamics?

The emotions expressed in classical music are, apparently, mostly subdued, never implied as starkly as Baroque or romantic music. And of course the techniques needed to present that aren't that advanced as well. Hardly will we encounter works in that period as challenging as a Chopin etude, or a Bach fugue in multiple voices.

So is Mozart really that easy? Is all we need to do play the proper notes at the proper time (as Bach notably said)? Or is there some ingredient we need to hone, that isn't particularly as preeminent as in other genres of the Classical Music tradition, in order to provide Mozart's piano music justice?

I mean come on. Nobody mentions Mozart's piano concerti or sonatas in a "what's the most challenging piece" discussion.

[awesom_o]

It's really easy to butcher Mozart, but extremely difficult to do even a decent job with it.

[kalirren]

I get the feeling that Mozart gets the reputation for being easy because many of his more famous works are relatively easy.  There's a lot of hard Mozart too, not as often played.

Also, the modern recording-influenced performance style de-emphasizes improvisation, which was a more essential element of performance in Mozart's time.  A modern eye reads and sees a score that looks simple, but in reality presented more of a scaffolding for a performance than an exact specification.

I think the challenge of performing Mozart's piano solo works the way Mozart's audiences probably heard them is one to which few modern recording artists have risen.  I can't think of any myself.

[cabbynum]

I recently went to a concert at a local college of a concert pianist doing a pretty big recital
If i remember correctly it was this

Mozart sonata A minor
Chopin Nocturne op.27no.2
Chopin sonata no.2
intermission
 3 preludes from a composer I had never heard of but apparently he wrote the pieces for her.
Mephisto Valse
hungarian rhapsody no.12
Liszt transcribed bach piece, I cant remember the name
and two encores, a Chinese new year song and La campanella

She used this concert as a sort of rehearsal for her Lincoln center recital a week or so after.
So afterwards i got to meet her etc

Her mozart was very odd, I had never heard it played the way she played it. I am not saying it was to my taste but, it was different and obviously very calculated and studied. She had thought about every single note.

Not wanting to be rude but still curious i asked "How did you decide on the interpretation of the Mozart sonata?"

She gave a really long and in depth answer but the gist was, that she wanted to play him differently and in a more modern way. She tried to think how if mozart were alive today how would he have changed the composition. She did lots of different things when performing it. I wasnt the biggest fan but it was different and interesting.

She added a lot more rubato and she had overall much more legato than I am used to hearing in mozart, more things blended together. Like you rubbed Vaseline all over the score. 

This isnt really related to its difficulty but just an interesting interpretation, i will try and find her name and post it on here.


Also i set myself a challenge to read through all of the mozart sonatas and fantasy's by the end of May. So far i am going along a bit ahead of schedule.

[j_menz]

Piano competitions are full of people who whizz through Gaspard, the Ligeti Etudes and all the "hard" stuff, and then absolutely butcher Mozart. That should tell you something.  There's more to technique than playing lots of notes fast.

[awesom_o]

She added a lot more rubato and she had overall much more legato than I am used to hearing in mozart, more things blended together. Like you rubbed Vaseline all over the score. 

Interesting. My usual problem with people's Mozart, including BIG names like Mitsuko or Maria Jao, is that the notes are often too short, and the legato isn't sufficiently expressive. Mozart can take plenty of rubato if you know what you're doing!

Mozart said that music should flow like OIL.

Vaseline is pretty oily stuff! I have no idea who the pianist is that you saw, but it sounds like she played Mozart in a way that was quite progressive!

[ale_ius]

I read this question and my old professors words come to mind....
"anybody can make it look hard" 

Just saying, it is easy for those can can make it look easy without sounding like a turd.

A.M.

[stevenarmstrong]

I think to do any justice to Mozart you need to research Historical Performance Practices and the declamatory style. You will find the all the elements -tempo, rubato, slurs, legato, staccato, accents everything!- are frequently misinterpreted today (well the last 60 years especially). Legato, our default legato, which is probably that of Chopin and Liszt, is not what it was in Mozart's day.

As far as challenging goes, Mozart sonatas are not considered "hard" because the standard measure of "hard" is purely overt technical display...dare I say it's a shallow measure. Mozart, I believe, requires a great, great deal of finesse, subtlety and control...rhythmic diction, amount of arm weight, types of legato and staccato - not for the amateur.

I saw Demidenko give a recital that included a bunch of Scarlatti, Chopin and the Liszt Sonata in B minor. Afterward he told me that the hardest of all was the Chopin C sharp minor nocturne. Really? that was harder than the Liszt sonata?!?

[j_menz]

I think to do any justice to Mozart you need to research Historical Performance Practices and the declamatory style.

The first I have heard of, though object to it's capitalisation and doubt it's necessity (though not it's usefulness).

The latter is unfamiliar to me outside the realm of theatre, though not normally  including opera, even opera seria. Perhaps you could elaborate.

[stevenarmstrong]

Seriously? Commenting on the capitalisation? Don't think anyone, including myself, gives a flying ____ whether you agree with my use of capitals...We're talking about Mozart.

You doubt the necessity to study what the symbols on the page actually mean? That's very complacent. I've been reading about Hofmann lately...he says:

"The worship of names, the unquestioning acquiescence in traditional conceptions – those are not the principles which will lead an artist to come into his own. It is rather a close examination of every popular notion, a sever testing of every tradition by the touchstone of self-thinking that will help an artist find himself and to see, what he does see, with his own eyes."

You can't grow artistically if you are complacent. 

Well you are spot on with opera and theatre and the declamatory style...Mozart's music is very lyrical and operatic. So naturally, there is a lot to learn from theatre and opera. You should read about it. In Mozart's day, so many pedagogues and composers were writing about how music and speech are very much the same. Pianists/keyboard players have been talking about the importance of imitating the voice for 2 centuries, at least! Why do you think the clavichord is designed the way it is? It can produce vibrato! If you want more elaboration I suggest you read a book. Clive Brown is a good start.

[j_menz]

"The worship of names, the unquestioning acquiescence in traditional conceptions – those are not the principles which will lead an artist to come into his own. ."

Surely that is an argument against blithely following the historical practices school as gospel. 

So naturally, there is a lot to learn from theatre and opera. You should read about it.

Wouldn't I be better watching it?

I suggest you read a book. Clive Brown is a good start.

I thought he was a person. 

[swagmaster420x]

The first I have heard of, though object to it's capitalisation and doubt it's necessity (though not it's usefulness).

The latter is unfamiliar to me outside the realm of theatre, though not normally  including opera, even opera seria. Perhaps you could elaborate.

are you putting grammatically incorrect apostrophes in your itses to sarcastically illustrate a point about grammar? im confuse. if you are trying to be charmingly droll, can you pls do it in such a way that it is easily recognizable. it helps with delivering the point, and amidst this sea of lesser forumgoers it would be pointless to make so complex of a joke that no one picks up on it : ( .

[j_menz]

are you putting grammatically incorrect apostrophes in your itses to sarcastically illustrate a point about grammar?

No, just to give other pedants an opportunity.

[swagmaster420x]

No, just to give other pedants an opportunity.

***, pedant, was like, the perfect word, i don't think, like, theres a word that would fit better in that context. none of these do: https://thesaurus.com/browse/pedant

i get so frustrated when i write. how did you come up with the perfect word so easily? how 2 language arts please. fck ur so cultured, not even joking tho

[swagmaster420x]

im currently wondering what witty riposte (< --- just yesterday this was the word of the day on dictionary app , which i installed on my ipad as part of my quest to get better in my writing. i feel so proud that i am able to so quickly utilize it.) a cultured individual such as you would whip up in response to my previous post. I am sure your reply will blow whatever silly, cringeworthy remarks I think of out of the water.

[stevenarmstrong]

"tradition conceptions" I believe, are what is passed on from generation to generation through the teacher. In the chapter I took the quote from it is clear that it is this that Hofmann is talking about. In fact, he mentions both the issue with students not questioning the "source" of teachers' information and also the importance of reading books on music. Why wouldn't anyone inquire? Why wouldn't anyone want to discover more? Everything you learn contributes to your development. Even bad sources! Teachers and a recordings/videos are only small parts of your musical education. Everything and everyone is bias and you'll never reach a finishing point because there isn't one; you have to seek more. I certainly don't take historical performance practice as gospel but it has certainly contributed to my development. Why did Barenboim record the complete Beethoven sonatas twice? (Even three times maybe?? I forget) He is a master! Could he not play them properly the first time? Definitely not the case. He has simply continued to grow artistically; has learned more and discovered more "between the lines." You can't settle for where you are at to truly grow.  

over and out

[j_menz]

***, pedant, was like, the perfect word

Le mot juste, even. 

As a lifelong certified practicing pedant, it's not so much a clever use of a word as part of my resume.

[swagmaster420x]

Le mot juste, even.  

As a lifelong certified practicing pedant, it's not so much a clever use of a word as part of my resume.

holy fck i just looked up le mot juste, and lemme just say that le mot juste was le mot juste and le mot cultured possible phrase you could come up with as a response. im so jelly how ppl can think of such clever, literate, scholarly things to say. are you like this when making conversation. then you would lyk be my history teacher, who is renowned and admired around my school for being so fking cultured. sigh how long does it take to become like this... do you have to be born with this elite state of mind...

[j_menz]

Why wouldn't anyone inquire? Why wouldn't anyone want to discover more?

I strongly suggest they do.

 You mentioned historical practice in such a way as I took you to mean it in the same hallowed "though shalt do it this way and no other" fashion as some of its proponents adopt. I appear to have misjudged your intent. It was the capitalisation that threw me.

Historical practice is a somewhat fuzzy term in use. At it's best it is a consideration of evidence from reports of performances, contemporary pedagogical texts and practices and the abilities of contemporary instruments. At its broadest, and worst, it is a bully pulpit for anyone to bleat on about a particular thing they take to heart. It needs to be subjected to the same questioning that Hofmann advocates. As, incidentally, do his own opinions.

[j_menz]

do you have to be born with this elite state of mind...

Just an empty one, and an appetite to fill it.

[stevenarmstrong]

Yeah, I was encouraging the person who posted the question to read about performing Mozart as it has helped me and you jump in with all sorts of sht critising my use of caps and consequently making assumptions about my attitude?? Based on my capitalising of a subject?!? What the fck is wrong with you? The caps threw you? Get real. Doesn't sound like you do a lot of filling of that appetite.

I strongly suggest they do.

 You mentioned historical practice in such a way as I took you to mean it in the same hallowed "though shalt do it this way and no other" fashion as some of its proponents adopt. I appear to have misjudged your intent. It was the capitalisation that threw me.

Historical practice is a somewhat fuzzy term in use. At it's best it is a consideration of evidence from reports of performances, contemporary pedagogical texts and practices and the abilities of contemporary instruments. At its broadest, and worst, it is a bully pulpit for anyone to bleat on about a particular thing they take to heart. It needs to be subjected to the same questioning that Hofmann advocates. As, incidentally, do his own opinions.

[swagmaster420x]

Just an empty one, and an appetite to fill it.

- Jmenz the cultured

what a great quote, tr00ly.

that makes me feel betterr, because i srsly got that appetite. now im reading (PIRATED HAHAHAHA) literature on my ipad so that i can get more cultured and being super tryhard by highlighting words i dont know and looking them up, phrases and sentences that stand out, etc. hopefully in a week i will become a picasso with words.

this newfound intellectual artistic curiosity is also making me more interested in music, but atm i g0tta grind for a competition  .   .  . . :  (

[swagmaster420x]

Yeah, I was encouraging the person who posted the question to read about performing Mozart as it has helped me and you jump in with all sorts of sht critising my use of caps and consequently making assumptions about my attitude?? Based on my capitalising of a subject?!? What the fck is wrong with you? The caps threw you? Get real. Doesn't sound like you do a lot of filling of that appetite.

omg i got respect for you because u spell f u c    k
as "fck" instead of "fk" to avoid censor. fck is so much cooler than fk.

oh ye im plannign on reading lolita soon whats it like

[j_menz]

Based on my capitalising of a subject?!?

You apparently haven't encountered the lunatic fringes of that movement.  Suggest you read up, but take a stiff drink first - it ain't all pretty.

[j_menz]

im plannign on reading lolita soon whats it like

Excellent, though depending on your motive, also possibly quite disappointing.

[swagmaster420x]

Excellent, though depending on your motive, also possibly quite disappointing.

im sooper excited, because i <3ed crime and punishment, even though it was kinda thick and bored most of my high school classmates. i like psychological shet. probably especially russian psychological shet. im assuming a book about a pedophile is pretty laden with heavy psychological material.

anyways,if you have watched anime, what's your view on anime as a cultural medium? i personally think anime deserves recognition, as in terms of potential it definitely doesn't lose to any other out there. im subscribed to this FCKING SUUUUUPER CULTURED guy's anime blog. his opinion on the matter is : https://wrongeverytime.com/2013/06/25/is-anime-an-inferior-medium/
itz worthwhile reading imo.

if you have/haven't watch anime either way, watch psycho pass:

it's entertaining, the characters from a storytelling standpoint are great, and it's sooper deep (questions and indirectly attacks utilitarianism, as well as HEAVILY addressing what it means to be human, and some shet about art and shet)

[swagmaster420x]

Excellent, though depending on your motive, also possibly quite disappointing.

welp one of my main motives is to better grasp words as a form of art, so i hope the prose (translated to english?) is high quality. is it?

[j_menz]

welp one of my main motives is to better grasp words as a form of art, so i hope the prose (translated to english?) is high quality. is it?

It is well written.

Nabokov actually wrote it in English.  He later did a translation of it back into his native Russian, but the English version is the original.

[cabbynum]

Interesting. My usual problem with people's Mozart, including BIG names like Mitsuko or Maria Jao, is that the notes are often too short, and the legato isn't sufficiently expressive. Mozart can take plenty of rubato if you know what you're doing!

Mozart said that music should flow like OIL.

Vaseline is pretty oily stuff! I have no idea who the pianist is that you saw, but it sounds like she played Mozart in a way that was quite progressive!

I cant find my programme from that night and the schools website takes down events after it has happened. I checked the LIncoln center website, no luck. THis is harder than i thought.

[pianoman53]

I actually think Mozart is easy. It's my type of music, and I really enjoy playing it. The same with Haydn. Though, it's not the same as "practice Mozart? No, ofc not!". It have taken me a bunch of sonatas, some other pieces and tons of listening. Mozart is one of my favourite composers, so maybe that's why it's easier for me. If someone who doesnt like Mozart plays him, it usually sounds terrible.

[pianoplunker]

I have the feeling that Mozart's piano repertoire is often generally considered 'basic' or 'uninteresting' compared to the works of, say, Bach, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, etc. After all, is it not enough that the performer play the notes neatly, at the tempo, with proper phrasing and dynamics?

The emotions expressed in classical music are, apparently, mostly subdued, never implied as starkly as Baroque or romantic music. And of course the techniques needed to present that aren't that advanced as well. Hardly will we encounter works in that period as challenging as a Chopin etude, or a Bach fugue in multiple voices.

So is Mozart really that easy? Is all we need to do play the proper notes at the proper time (as Bach notably said)? Or is there some ingredient we need to hone, that isn't particularly as preeminent as in other genres of the Classical Music tradition, in order to provide Mozart's piano music justice?

I mean come on. Nobody mentions Mozart's piano concerti or sonatas in a "what's the most challenging piece" discussion.

Mozart is one of the easiest to play incorrectly, if you count rests, phrasing, and dynamics as part of playing correctly. For me the only thing easier about Mozart is no huge leaps or huge chords like some of the others you mention. 

[deidre]

Since I was a child, Mozart has been one of my favorite composers. I don't think his work is 'easy' per se, but rather complex in a different way, than say Debussy. Debussy is challenging, to me. I think Mozart is considered easy, because he seems almost predictable in all of his pieces. I know where he is heading, but, yet...again. He's not easy. I liken him to a lively refreshing fruit salad on a hot summer day...whereas Bach is a deep, rich ...and multi layered German chocolate cake. haha That's just how I've always viewed Mozart. I wonder if he is rolling in his grave knowing that people are even bantering the idea of his work being...gasp, easy. 

[deidre]

I actually think Mozart is easy. It's my type of music, and I really enjoy playing it. The same with Haydn. Though, it's not the same as "practice Mozart? No, ofc not!". It have taken me a bunch of sonatas, some other pieces and tons of listening. Mozart is one of my favourite composers, so maybe that's why it's easier for me. If someone who doesnt like Mozart plays him, it usually sounds terrible.

That's interesting; I find Haydn to be 'easy.' (for want of a better word) Can we come up with a better word than easy? lol I'm fond of Haydn and Mozart. I love Bach though too, and Debussy...even though the latter two are 'harder' to practice and get right. Precisely right.

[philb]

Playing "musically" is not all about playing with emotion. Rhythmical security and sense, articulation, tone, character, intelligent phrasing, voicing, evenness, structural sense, dynamic contrasts, and intelligent use of nuance to name a few are some musical factors that we should always be mindful of.

Especially with a composer like Mozart, all of the above need to be present. Plus, I find that Mozart is incredibly difficult mechanically, even more so than many of the romantic composers. Most of it is terribly exposed and any slight unevenness will be much much more apparent than in, say, a Beethoven Sonata or a Liszt Etude.

[malaguena]

Mozart, to me, is far from easy. He is one of my favorite composers; I have spent many hours listening to and playing his music. Many pianists I have listened to perform Mozart and leave it lacking in the extreme. Mozart requires a perfection in rhythm; emotion, but a controlled emotion, and a lightness and grace in playing. I also believe it requires a certain amount of musical understanding to fully enjoy.  Everything about Mozart requires a controlled yet loving touch, which if missing, ruins the piece. I think to play Mozart right you really have to love his music, and really care about what you are playing. I don't quite understand how someone could think his music lacks in emotion and dynamics when compared to others.....that seems ridiculous to me.

As to the idea that all ANY piece of music should require is to play the correct tempo and correct notes at the right time; I think that's a disgrace to music. Music is much, much more than the right notes and the right tempos. It's diving to what you are doing; body and soul, heart and mind.

[cabbynum]

Interesting. My usual problem with people's Mozart, including BIG names like Mitsuko or Maria Jao, is that the notes are often too short, and the legato isn't sufficiently expressive. Mozart can take plenty of rubato if you know what you're doing!

Mozart said that music should flow like OIL.

Vaseline is pretty oily stuff! I have no idea who the pianist is that you saw, but it sounds like she played Mozart in a way that was quite progressive!

I went back through my texts and found where my teacher texted me about the concert
So finally here it is
https://www.jiaxintian.com

[chopinfrederic]

Not as easy as you thought. He's not my favorite though.

[canada100]

No! Mozart is not easy at all! You do not need to take my word for it either-just try playing one of his Concerti! It is really difficult!

Technically, he's a beast. Stylistically, even more so. Even his K545 Sonata presents unimaginable challenges.

This is why we so rarely hear Mozart being played at competitions. Why? Because he is so difficult! You hear Rach 3 and Tchaikovsky all the time! Why not Mozart? He is too difficult. So many pianists try to avoid him, because he is too difficult. In competitions, when a classical sonata is asked, almost nobody plays Mozart. I almost always hear either the Beethoven Waldstein or Appassionata.

However, on the positive side, his works, are, indeed, more suitable for smaller hands as they put little strain on the hand. This does not make it easy, however.

[diwang99]

It's true, mozart is really easy, like beethoven, brahms, etc. All these later composers are just little kids compared to bach.

[diwang99]

Try achieving something with mozart, you will see it's still as difficult as the other contemporary composers.

[chopinfrederic]

It's true, mozart is really easy, like beethoven, brahms, etc. All these later composers are just little kids compared to bach.

Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms are easy??!! Wow. You must be a pro then. I wanna hear you play Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata.

[diwang99]

Sure I'm gonna learn the third movement I'm gonna record it then. BTW, my piano teacher is arthur greene. I was his student when I was 5 and I left him when I was 11, along with Kevin Lee, and another korean girl I forgot her name. I moved back to China.

[chicoscalco]

Guys diwang99 is a troll. Do not feed it, or give it attention.