Waldstein - difficulty playing at correct speed

[warburtonj]

I'm finding it impossible to get anywhere near to the correct speed in bar 14.  I find it easier if I use fingering 4-2-4-2-4-2 but the score says to use 4-2-4-1-4-2-4-1.  Any advice?

[j_menz]

Any advice?

Go with your instinct (4-2-4-2-4-2).  Fingerings marked in scores are generally for guidance only and should never override your own common sense. You know your hands better than any editor.

[anima55]

My edition of this section suggests 313131.  I don't think you would have any difficulty speeding up using this fingering.   4241 would seem to be a little unnecessary to me.

[warburtonj]

Thanks for your suggestions.  4-2-4-1 seems to be quite common, its even the suggested fingering in the copy listed on this website https://www.pianostreet.com/beethoven-sheet-music/sonatas/sonata-21-waldstein-op-53.htm.  This fingering feels awkward to me but I'm thinking there must be a reason for using it.

[j_menz]

I'm thinking there must be a reason for using it.

None besides possible convenience. If it lacks that, it has no reason.

[coda_colossale]

3-1-3-1-3-1 seems to work pretty good with my fingers. 4-2-4-1 is a little awkward.

[warburtonj]

It looks like Barenboim uses 3-1-3-1 in this video.  Think I will pay less attention to suggested fingerings in future!

[stevenarmstrong]

All I know is that the alternating finger patterns help reduce fatigue and tension - plus a bit of rotation. Remember, Barenboim's fingering is only a suggestion too! Rubinstein (Anton) always said 'play it with your nose but make it sound well!' i.e. it doesn't matter what fingering you use as long as it produces results. Take a look at Horowitz!! Worst "looking" technique ever.

[daggenhurstfan]

I'm finding it impossible to get anywhere near to the correct speed in bar 14.  I find it easier if I use fingering 4-2-4-2-4-2 but the score says to use 4-2-4-1-4-2-4-1.  Any advice?

Hi, I'm a little late to the party, but i wanted to say that i use 4-2-4-1 and it has been a lifesaver.

Playing at ~ 160 b.p.m can be very taxing on the hands when playing 3-1 repetitively, as there's only so much arm motion that can go in at that speed and the hand will naturally start to cramp.. 4-2 seems ok but it presents a problem of moving up that whole step.

4-2-4-1 works like a charm at tempo as long as you keep the movement small and allow the arm to move a bit with it. This also mirrors the nature of what one must do later in the right hand at the end of the exposition

my 2 cents

[jlskiles]

You know your hands better than any editor.

That is the best advice for fingering I've ever heard.

[warburtonj]

An update on my progress.  I practiced 3-1-3-1 quite a lot last year, but I recently tried 4-2-4-1 again and found playing at speed much easier using this fingering than I did before.  It's the left hand I'm struggling with now as there is no option of alternating the fingering to reduce fatigue. 

[faulty_damper]

Playing tremolos with primarily finger movement is highly inefficient and induces tension.  Including forearm rotation is highly efficient.

[michael_c]

An update on my progress.  I practiced 3-1-3-1 quite a lot last year, but I recently tried 4-2-4-1 again and found playing at speed much easier using this fingering than I did before.  It's the left hand I'm struggling with now as there is no option of alternating the fingering to reduce fatigue. 

Here's the heart of the matter: the left hand. It's harder than the right: in the following measures you also have to alternate thirds with single notes. Since you can't alternate the fingers here, your stuck with this: find out how to use primarily forearm rotation, coupled with the necessary freedom in elbow and shoulder joints and just the right amount of finger movement.

Once you've solved this for the left hand, you'll probably find that the right hand is easy and you won't want to change fingers: it hampers the rotation rather than helping it. I've always played 3-1-3-1, but 4-2-4-2 is fine as well.

Have a look at this video where Edna Golandsky shows the rotational approach. She's using 3-1-3-1 (this passage starts at around 9'20"):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy-levbA2RM

[diomedes]

I'm finding it impossible to get anywhere near to the correct speed in bar 14.  I find it easier if I use fingering 4-2-4-2-4-2 but the score says to use 4-2-4-1-4-2-4-1.  Any advice?

Left hand 4+1 Right hand 3+1. Fingers in absolute closest contact with keys at all times and use internal listening as the greatest utility. That and an efficient understanding of the passage as a whole.

About 10 years ago i recall preparing this and it really really challenged me. Time gives you resources, I don't play this at all but i can put that passage in my head with a glance and play it as quick as i'd like now. I recorded it it and played it back to myself just now, to confirm. Seems a bit unfair, but a long while back i was in the same boat as you.

Keep the big picture in mind and realize the your dedication to the matter is the real measure of success.

[warburtonj]

Thanks for your comments.  I have been trying the rotation technique, but I don't fully understand it.  Are the fingers supposed to be relaxed or rigid.  I've been trying it with fingers relaxed but then they don't have the precision required to press the notes consistently.

[diomedes]

I had a look at that video, we all do what we feel we need to do, but i can't see anything of use in it. I only watched some of it and I would only say her promotion of staying close to the keys is the best advice. My point of view, that rotational stuff is nonsense that the gullible are quick to agree to.

For me anyway, its always been mind over matter. You can either do it or not. Seems harsh, but time gives understanding on many things.

If you stick to your studies with real dedication, i bet a few years down the road when you come back to this you'll be able to digest the difficulties with ease. When that happens, do fire me an email.

And i'll add this:

again a long while back I was working on the Beethoven C major Op.2, the opening that most pianists know with thirds in the right hand that are so exposed and need mental maturity. At the time, i agonized over that, never was able to do it, even tried splitting the thirds between hands (we all get desperate at some point). I sat down to play the opening 2 bars just now, i noticed 2/3 + 1/5 for fingerings appeared easier, but after some coaxing i got 1/3 + 2/4 to work as well. Again i played and recorded it, the whole process took 5 minutes, clean and neat, extremely fast and efficient. Wish i could have done that years ago. What helped, fingers obsessively in contact with the keys and deep in the surface for complete control. The rest was mental acuity.

But the trouble is, a teacher can't simply say, well ahem, you just can't manage it now kid come back to it a decade later. Student will be upset among other things, and this rotational thing certainly won't solve anything.

She has a video attempting to do this rotational thing with Chopin op.25/6. I'm sorry but the solution to that etude is enormous pianistic and mental maturity. Nothing with the forearms.
But people like her. Kind old ladies don't lie do they? So they believe her.

End result, i still have the recording i did of the Waldstein. I guess it's ok. Personally i think it's very weak, i could do much better now. But i'm not too hard on myself because it was a live professional recital that included Liszt transcrptions and a late Scriabin sonata among other stuff so my resources were spread out. I'd like to do a more justified job of the Waldstein now, it's stunning music, but i've many other projects happening. Beethoven will happen when Beethoven happens.

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for your comments.  I have been trying the rotation technique, but I don't fully understand it.  Are the fingers supposed to be relaxed or rigid.  I've been trying it with fingers relaxed but then they don't have the precision required to press the notes consistently.

It is a combination of finger and forearm rotation.

[warburtonj]

@diomedes

I just looked out my copy of Beethoven C major Op.2 and have spent about half an hour trying to play this.  Looks like I have something else to practice now! 

[anamnesis]

I had a look at that video, we all do what we feel we need to do, but i can't see anything of use in it. I only watched some of it and I would only say her promotion of staying close to the keys is the best advice. My point of view, that rotational stuff is nonsense that the gullible are quick to agree to.

For me anyway, its always been mind over matter. You can either do it or not. Seems harsh, but time gives understanding on many things.

If you stick to your studies with real dedication, i bet a few years down the road when you come back to this you'll be able to digest the difficulties with ease. When that happens, do fire me an email.

And i'll add this:

again a long while back I was working on the Beethoven C major Op.2, the opening that most pianists know with thirds in the right hand that are so exposed and need mental maturity. At the time, i agonized over that, never was able to do it, even tried splitting the thirds between hands (we all get desperate at some point). I sat down to play the opening 2 bars just now, i noticed 2/3 + 1/5 for fingerings appeared easier, but after some coaxing i got 1/3 + 2/4 to work as well. Again i played and recorded it, the whole process took 5 minutes, clean and neat, extremely fast and efficient. Wish i could have done that years ago. What helped, fingers obsessively in contact with the keys and deep in the surface for complete control. The rest was mental acuity.

But the trouble is, a teacher can't simply say, well ahem, you just can't manage it now kid come back to it a decade later. Student will be upset among other things, and this rotational thing certainly won't solve anything.

She has a video attempting to do this rotational thing with Chopin op.25/6. I'm sorry but the solution to that etude is enormous pianistic and mental maturity. Nothing with the forearms.
But people like her. Kind old ladies don't lie do they? So they believe her.

End result, i still have the recording i did of the Waldstein. I guess it's ok. Personally i think it's very weak, i could do much better now. But i'm not too hard on myself because it was a live professional recital that included Liszt transcrptions and a late Scriabin sonata among other stuff so my resources were spread out. I'd like to do a more justified job of the Waldstein now, it's stunning music, but i've many other projects happening. Beethoven will happen when Beethoven happens.

The forearms  are very involved in Op 25 no 6, but forearm rotation isn't the right technique.  You want to use alternating action while balancing on the escapement (as well as a net downward control of the shoulder). It allows you to produce tone despite using "up actions" at the forearm to reset.  

Whiteside describes the technique in her book, particularly on Op 10 no 7.  One insight, that I think makes it more clear, is that not only is their alternation in the flexion/extension of the forearm and hands with regards to the wrist, but there is also alternation in the opening and closing of the hand. Whatever finger action is necessary is best conceived as the united opening or closing of the hand due to intrinsic muscle action.

What's also involved is a good sense of rhythm and control of impulses. 

[michael_c]

Thanks for your comments.  I have been trying the rotation technique, but I don't fully understand it.  Are the fingers supposed to be relaxed or rigid.  I've been trying it with fingers relaxed but then they don't have the precision required to press the notes consistently.

The fingers do not stay relaxed, nor do they stay rigid. At the moment when you rotate towards the finger that is just about to play, the muscles of that finger tense enough to ensure that the finger hits the key securely. Just after playing the note, the tension in these muscles reduces: now there is just enough tension to keep the key depressed, helped by the weight of the arm.

The best thing would be to find a teacher who can show this to you and control that you are working on it correctly. Failing that, there are several pianists who have put explanatory videos on YouTube. Try typing "piano forearm rotation" in the YouTube search field.

[j_menz]

Try typing "piano forearm rotation" in the YouTube search field.

Be sure to have a(large) stiff drink first.

It is a combination of finger and forearm rotation.

Quite right.

[diomedes]

The fingers do not stay relaxed, nor do they stay rigid. At the moment when you rotate towards the finger that is just about to play, the muscles of that finger tense enough to ensure that the finger hits the key securely. Just after playing the note, the tension in these muscles reduces: now there is just enough tension to keep the key depressed, helped by the weight of the arm.

The best thing would be to find a teacher who can show this to you and control that you are working on it correctly. Failing that, there are several pianists who have put explanatory videos on YouTube. Try typing "piano forearm rotation" in the YouTube search field.

I say put the mental energy into understanding what you're doing. There's more than enough to think about given the difficulty of the piano in general.

I see nothing of value of this piano forearm rotation business. I don't have a problem with it, but it seems a little bit of a problem if at its core misguides people, especially naive ones. But then again the naive ones are in the process of wandering aimlessly so they do need something to occupy themselves with. Useful or not.

Either you can play it or not. To each their own.

[anamnesis]

I say put the mental energy into understanding what you're doing. There's more than enough to think about given the difficulty of the piano in general.

I see nothing of value of this piano forearm rotation business. I don't have a problem with it, but it seems a little bit of a problem if at its core misguides people, especially naive ones. But then again the naive ones are in the process of wandering aimlessly so they do need something to occupy themselves with. Useful or not.

Either you can play it or not. To each their own.

It's not that there is no use for forearm rotation, but it is usually best incorporated into other movements.

Starting off with it as a fundamental movement rather than as a blended, incorporated action, can at times be a red herring from what's really missing.

[diomedes]

It's not that there is no use for forearm rotation, but it is usually best incorporated into other movements.

Starting off with it as a fundamental movement rather than as a blended, incorporated action, can at times be a red herring from what's really missing.

I do attempt to have some sympathy with your claims in this area, in light of your other posts on the forum being often very strong in practical reasoning.

At risk of giving the impression of being belligerent, my apologies if so, i refuse to take any claim seriously that any physical gimmick will unlock the challenges proposed by Op.25/6. To me that's similar to claiming arm rotation will help you memorize the Busoni concerto in less than a week.

My only current regret is that i wish i had time to work on that chopin etude currently because to me it is the final word in technical challenges.

[anamnesis]

I do attempt to have some sympathy with your claims in this area, in light of your other posts on the forum being often very strong in practical reasoning.

At risk of giving the impression of being belligerent, my apologies if so, i refuse to take any claim seriously that any physical gimmick will unlock the challenges proposed by Op.25/6. To me that's similar to claiming arm rotation will help you memorize the Busoni concerto in less than a week.

My only current regret is that i wish i had time to work on that chopin etude currently because to me it is the final word in technical challenges.

No apologizes necessary.  You should be skeptical of anything you read or learn from someone else.  I only post to see how easy it is communicate some ideas I have, and I expect people to challenge them if I'm either unclear or that they do not find it true in their experience. If I have to update, the conceptual model I have, so be it.

I don't believe in physical gimmicks either, but I do believe it's worth trying do describe physical sensations and motions, in the hope, that it can be transferred to others. 

All, I can do is at least explain my rationale and justify why I choose certain verbal descriptions and imageries that can be used to transfer these sensations.  And you are perfectly right, that these sensations take time and maturity to incorporate. 

Motor learning requires your body to figure out he most efficient motions to produce a desired physical result (which in instrumental playing also involves an aural result). The fundamental problem in motor coordination is the problem of redundancy.  All of your joints, bones, and  muscles gives us so many ways to move (as well as choosing different degrees of muscle contributions/synergies and patterns of nerve firing), that it takes time for the body to figure it out.

Technical problems people encounter are because they not be exploring certain degrees of freedom, or you are using ones that are inappropriate at the tempos you are trying to play at or don't flow from one part of the music to the other.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_freedom_problem)

If someone attempts to describe a "physical gimmick", it is merely an attempt to increase the probability that your body will figure out the appropriate degrees of freedom that gets the musical results you want with comfort and reliability.