Beethoven Op. 49 no.1 help/tips?

[pover]

Hey everyone, it's been a while since I posted, but i've been looking around the forums for advice on started topics, and more specifically on previous threads in which Bernhard participated. Since I heard a lot about him, i thought i'd look for advice in his posts And to be honest, i feel ashamed of my playing now, to say the least (lol). I'm a self-taught pianist, been playing for 1-1.5 years i guess.

Previously, I would play tough pieces like tempest 3rd, waldstein 1st, moonlight sonata etc (really big fan of Beethoven), but i don't think I did them justice. I mean, i used to play almost all the notes correctly with as much expression as i could, but there was something missing, you know? the little details that make music, music. So I decided to go back a few notches and start things from where i really should, so i've been practicing some simple bach (Cmaj invention, minuet in G, etc) and now I think I want to tackle this sonata.

Enough rambling now so basically, I'm not able to play all the double notes in the LH completely legato, without using pedal. I want to get in the habit of playing everything completely as it should sound like without the pedal, before i start incorporating it, so that I dont "hide" my mistakes, if you will. I will post the sheet music to show you what i mean.

In the first 3 bars LH (and similar) there is this double notes accompaniment, but in the 2nd bar, we have Ab-F# then F#-D, and I can't seem to do this transition or similar transition without making it sound choppy, since the F# is a common note. Same thing goes for the transition (in position) of LH from bar 1 to 2. I can't seem to make it completely legato, and whenever i press my pedal i get this clunky sound (I think it needs some lubrication or something).

Sorry for the HUGE wall of text, but if you guys have any advice on how to overcome this, and any tips in general for this piece, i will be really thankful
Thanks in advance

[awesom_o]

Do you always play with the music in front of you?

[pover]

well, when I'm learning the piece. But usually after I've learned a piece and became familiar with all the dynamics and articulation, I play it a few times with the sheet music in front of me (just to make sure. I mostly look at my hands anyway), so that i can have a mental image of the sheet music and to reinforce the ideas of dynamics and articulation.
Btw, what does this have to do with the problem? I hope i'm not missing something.

[awesom_o]

Your only problem is that you need to be more patient before you add the pedal to things.

What happens when you isolate this problematic transition, go really under tempo, with you foot flat on the floor, not touching the pedal?

Sorry, I don't have my score in front of me.

[pover]

I attatched a copy of the sheet music in my first post. When I try to play it without pedal, I cant get it smooth and flowing. It gets choppy during the transitions between bars, and transitions within bars where the same note is played twice after each other (look left hand first 3 or so bars).

[awesom_o]

What fingering are you using for the repeated notes? Are you changing fingerings on that repeated note so the same finger doesn't have to double-duty?

I strongly advise you to practice the LH alone with you RH by your side, singing the RH melody with your voice instead. You may need to work on the LH alone a little bit before you can do this!

Showing the phrasing clearly in the LH is important.

[pover]

I've been trying to do the LH alone. I always do HS when I first practice. For the first bar there are no problems. For moving hand position from that of the first bar to that of the second bar, I lose the flow and it gets a little choppy.
For the first 2 double notes in the 2nd bar, I place 3rd on F# and 1st on A and then 3rd on F# and 5th on D. But in doing so, there is a stop in flow, or choppiness, and I cant keep a legato. Do you have any advice?

[awesom_o]

You have to practice getting your LH from the one position to the other position with much more time to spare than you would think.

Practice the change of position alone sufficiently that you can go from the last note (G,Bb) of the first bar to the first note of the 2nd bar (F#.A) smoothly in performance.

So when you isolate it, practice making the jump very quickly, and landing on the correct notes always BEFORE playing them.

Does this make sense?

[kalirren]

awesome_o, I think they're talking about the transition after that.

My teacher would have told me to choose one voice to make legato.  In this case I would choose the top voice and play A legato to F#, since you can hold the A all the way up until you play the interval D-F#, but you can't hold the F# all the way up since the F# is repeated.

Same thing with the following measure - play the interval G-Bb, hold only the G to make legato to the interval Bb-D.

[awesom_o]

awesome_o, I think they're talking about the transition after that.

Either way, the same method of practice will work!

[pover]

kalirren, i was talking about both transitions; the transition in hand position between bar 1 and 2, and the transition for the different notes (with same F#).
I think i'm gonna try your method of holding the A while changing the A-F# into F#-D, making the illusion of legato. Interesting idea, i didn't think of it before.

awesom_o:  I tried to practice the change in hand position, but my problem lies in that the G-Bb is played with 5-3. and then the next notes are A-F#, which are played with 1-3, so i have to move my 3rd finger, and i think that's what's causing the choppiness. the problem is i can't hold the Bb like kalirren said, because i play Bb with 3rd, and then i have to play F# with 3rd, know what I mean? so do you folks have any other suggestions?

You've been helpful so far, I'm gonna have to try holding the A tomorrow. Thanks in advance

[kalirren]

I stand corrected.

There is a break in the phrasing across the bar line, so you don't have to hold the Bb.  In fact, I think the fingering is given that way in the score you posted to make you lift up your hand, make a break, and re-attack the next measure as the next legato unit.  If I had been fingering those same notes without the phrasing given, I'd have used 5-3 on G-Bb and 4-1 on F#-A, so that I could play them legato.

[pover]

I see. So you think i should just follow the score and just lift my hand up into the new position? I'm trying to use as little pedal as i can manage, so that I can improve my technique in general. So in short, I should tackle each bar as a separate legato phrase, and try and form a long phrase from all 3 bars?
By the way, thanks for your help. From the repertoire I see in your sig, i can tell you're quite experienced. 

[kalirren]

Yes, and I agree with awesome_o's suggestions six posts up for how you should practice that.

From what I've seen, I think awesome_o is even more experienced than I am.  And we both enjoy helping people on the internet, you're very welcome :-)

[pover]

Alright. So awesom_o, I wanna get a tiny bit into technicalities here. So i would move my fingers (1-3) from G-Bb to (1-3) on A-F#, but i would do it in such a way that I lift my fingers, get into position and place fingers on top of the keys, but not play them? So i should get used to moving my fingers on the keys, rather than playing the A-F# directly? Is this so i can get a smoother/softer sound?
Lol, who would've though such an easy sonata would present a problem within the first few bars. This is somewhat motivating, to be honest, in some strange way

[awesom_o]

Alright. So awesom_o, I wanna get a tiny bit into technicalities here. So i would move my fingers (1-3) from G-Bb to (1-3) on A-F#, but i would do it in such a way that I lift my fingers, get into position and place fingers on top of the keys, but not play them?

Try to change positions in a way which DOESN'T involve lifting the fingers. Stay as close to the keys as possible!

[pover]

Alright thanks for the advice.
On a similar note, do you have any tips on how to play dolce? some sections in the piece requires me to play dolce, such as the part with the alberti bass (which I try to get as smooth as possible).
I know it means "sweet" and i try to put more expression into it, but some performers produce a really different tone when they reach expressive markings, I can't seem to do that. I try to play softly and try to make the LH quiter, with an attempt of SLIGHTLY bringing out the notes of the alberti (not the repeated F, the other progressions in the LH).

Since I brought up the topic of alberti bass, do you have any idea on how to play it smoother, and make it seemless? I find that's one of my main issues; finding and producing correct balance of sounds between the two hands. Sometimes my LH gets too loud for my taste, and I can't always play it the way I want to. So if you have any tips concerning this, I would appreciate it a lot

Sorry for bombarding you with tons of question, but I don't know who else to ask since i can't take lessons right now (financial issues etc).

[deidre]

Some good advice here; my two cents relating to learning how to play legato…I’d just pick a simple scale, and KEEP PRACTICING it that way. Then, turn back to your piece.
I tend to practice varying techniques in this way, when learning new pieces. Good luck!

[pover]

deidre, i can play scales legato. At least i think it's legato. When you say legato, do you mean i have to press the second note before i take the first one off? if that's the case, its almost impossible for me to do at high speeds. when i play scales normally at a relatively high speed, the notes don't seem to be detached, they seem to be connected. but when i play a piece, i like to exaggerate the legato so that i know i can maintain it. Know what i mean? Do you have any tips for that? Or any tips regarding the alberti bass for the points i mentioned in the post above? Thanks

[awesom_o]

Or any tips regarding the alberti bass for the points i mentioned in the post above? Thanks

Alberti bass are one of those things on the piano that SEEMS easy, but is actually very difficult to do well. A subtle mixture of forearm rotation + "quiet-hand" style technique will yield good results.

Make sure that you do not play all of the notes in the Alberti figure equally. Usually the bass note is the most important. You can emphasize this by holding on to the actual note itself, as if it had a tenuto marking over it. Subtle sounds can be discovered by mixing this 'finger-pedaling' (holding the bass note slightly over its written length) with actual pedaling.

Usually the note that gets repeated the most frequently in the Alberti figure (frequently the thumb) is the least important. Since the ear will hear it played more often, it's all the more important that this note never sticks out of the texture.


Learn to play all scales, major and minor, using the 4 octave formula pattern.
Here is what a 2 octave formula pattern looks like:

Kids and beginners use the 2 octave pattern. Real pianists use the 4 octave pattern.

Learn all of the major and minor scales this way. It will really help you with legato!

[lelle]

What is the 4 octave formula pattern?

[awesom_o]

It's like the 2 octave version in the video above, but over 4 octaves instead of 2!

[deidre]

deidre, i can play scales legato. At least i think it's legato. When you say legato, do you mean i have to press the second note before i take the first one off? if that's the case, its almost impossible for me to do at high speeds. when i play scales normally at a relatively high speed, the notes don't seem to be detached, they seem to be connected. but when i play a piece, i like to exaggerate the legato so that i know i can maintain it. Know what i mean? Do you have any tips for that? Or any tips regarding the alberti bass for the points i mentioned in the post above? Thanks

awesom_o's advice is spot on.

We all learn differently and that's fine. But, my advice for you if you struggle with a particular technique ...you should set aside 'x' amount of time per week to practice JUST THAT. Practice your pieces as normal but because it was engrained in me as a kid, I don't practice learning techniques I struggle with ON a piece of music that is still very new to me.

Just from reading this here, it 'seems' like your struggle with legato is that you linger too long as you put it, in order to exaggerate it. That's most likely why it's become hard to do at faster paces. Curb that "habit" by practicing it correctly and that will carry over to the actual piece.

I had an incredible piano instructor growing up but likewise she was an incredible task master. She truly was obsessed with legato ...and I had to devote an hour or more daily to just "perfecting" that (for her.) lol For me, too ok.

I share that with you because practice ...repetition ...of those very things you struggle with...will take you from mediocre to good. Good to great!

Video yourself and listen objectively. It's hard to "hear" errors sometimes when we are practicing the same skills over and over.

There are no shortcuts. Practice will get you there.

[lelle]

It's like the 2 octave version in the video above, but over 4 octaves instead of 2!

I think I figured it out, so it's

Right Hand: u  u  d  u  d  u  d  d
Left Hand:   u  d  u  u  d  d  u  d

u = up two octaves
d = down two octaves

I'm looking to do more scale practise so this could prove useful.

[awesom_o]

Yeah that's it. Now learn all major and minor keys!

[pover]

Wow guys, that's all great advice, thanks a lot! I don't know where to begin, this is great. So much stuff to work on. I particularly liked the scale octave technique you mentioned, i think it will greatly improve hand independence when playing passages with two different motions.

So in the alberti bass, I should try to emphasize and hold the bass note (I think I heard that in one of josh wright's videos) and finger pedal. My problem still seems to be getting the LH as quiet as i want, so that i can emphasize the bass note but still make it lower than the RH melody, but i guess that's just a lot of practice. I also watched josh's quiet hands video, I think i'll try that, but my main problem here is that some notes don't sound. Again, i think practicing the right amount of force/arm weight is key.

Deidre, thanks for the encouragement I wish i had a teacher, I'm sure it'll help me tonnes, but I can't afford one now, unfortunately. And also, my problem is i dont know how much legato is considered legato, know what i mean? I dont know how connected that have to be in order to be considered legato. Cause normally with scales and passages, when i play at the correct tempo, you can't hear detachment, but then again you don't hear complete overlapping (Watch Josh wright's "AMAZING overlapping technique") When i play as suggested in that video, it becomes legatissimo, but still close to impossible to get up to speed.

In general, thanks a lot guys for all the diverse advice. If you can back to me on those few points, you'd be saviors to me  

[awesom_o]

My problem still seems to be getting the LH as quiet as i want, so that i can emphasize the bass note but still make it lower than the RH melody, but i guess that's just a lot of practice. I also watched josh's quiet hands video, I think i'll try that, but my main problem here is that some notes don't sound. Again, i think practicing the right amount of force/arm weight is key.

I like Josh's videos, although I've only watched a few of them.
Check out the video I made the other day on the ABC exercises. They will help a lot with this.

[pover]

Can you link me to that video? I remember commenting somewhere asking about the ABC, can't seem to find it though. You've been a great help so far, to be honest. I'm glad I signed up for this forum. This is like an online tutor, lol

[awesom_o]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=54246.0