"I want to learn how to..." No, you don't.

[gregh]

A recent message by bronnestam made me think of something.

Every once in a while there'll be someone who says something like "I want to learn a foreign language." Well, you know that's not true! If it was, the person would be learning it. He could go to the library, today, get some study materials, and begin without even spending a dime. But he doesn't want to learn it, he wants to have learned it. It's an important difference.

Piano is like that, too.

[lelle]

You mean some people are interested in the goal and others in the process?

[kopower]

I think you have a point there -

There is no shortcut to learning piano.

Do the hours and put in the work

[nitros]

I would eat my piano if you could find study material to learn any language that's not english in the library of the city that I used to live in, my current city doesn't even have a library...

[gregh]

You mean some people are interested in the goal and others in the process?

Well, if they were really interested in the goal they'd do something about it. They want the result without the work.

[gregh]

I would eat my piano if you could find study material to learn any language that's not english in the library of the city that I used to live in, my current city doesn't even have a library...

That's too bad. We have excellent libraries in this area, and the local library systems have reciprocity agreements which means I can use libraries in adjacent counties, too. Even some of the local college libraries give borrowing privileges to the community. Sometimes I take it for granted.

You might have to buy your language materials at a bookstore or through Amazon.

[awesom_o]

It's true.

Everyone wants to BE good.

Very few people want to GET good.

[nyiregyhazi]

A recent message by bronnestam made me think of something.

Every once in a while there'll be someone who says something like "I want to learn a foreign language." Well, you know that's not true! If it was, the person would be learning it. He could go to the library, today, get some study materials, and begin without even spending a dime. But he doesn't want to learn it, he wants to have learned it. It's an important difference.

Piano is like that, too.

Desire isn't binary. The fact that most single men don't take the action of writing deranged letters to their favourite female movie stars inviting them round for a quick shag, doesn't mean that they don't genuinely "want" to sleep with them. You can genuinely want something yet not get around to doing anything about or, or be in a position where it doesn't appear realistically within reach. By all means point out that they obviously don't want it ENOUGH, but we really don't need to start redefining the English language in order to make the point.

[gregh]

Desire isn't binary. The fact that most single men don't take the action of writing deranged letters to their favourite female movie stars inviting them round for a quick shag, doesn't mean that they don't genuinely "want" to sleep with them. You can genuinely want something yet not get around to doing anything about or, or be in a position where it doesn't appear realistically within reach. By all means point out that they obviously don't want it ENOUGH, but we really don't need to start redefining the English language in order to make the point.

All true, I can't disagree with anything here.

Something that can also be very important is the expectation of success--you might want the result, you might be willing to put a lot of work into it, but if you think you're not in a position to actually achieve that goal, it may not be rational to even start working towards it. (Unless you see value in the process itself.)

And maybe "I want to learn a foreign language" is just an imprecise way to say "I want to know a foreign language". But if you really want to "learn" it, then start learning it. It's an infinitely more achievable goal than mastering a foreign language.

[bronnestam]

Desire isn't binary. The fact that most single men don't take the action of writing deranged letters to their favourite female movie stars inviting them round for a quick shag, doesn't mean that they don't genuinely "want" to sleep with them. You can genuinely want something yet not get around to doing anything about or, or be in a position where it doesn't appear realistically within reach. By all means point out that they obviously don't want it ENOUGH, but we really don't need to start redefining the English language in order to make the point.

I have been into this affirmation stuff thinking for decades by now, long before anyone had heard about "The Secret" ...

The concept has been misused and misinterpreted many many times, and people have even made money from trashing it. But it works, it definitely works, and I have got it proved more times than I can count. I have learned that if you want to be or have something, you will probably get it if you only have the courage to go for it. You can always make up excuses, there are probably one million of them, but most of them are really nothing but excuses.  

I don't know what post of mine the OP referred to above, but actually I agree. People often tell me that they want this and they want that, and when I say "why don't you just do it, then?" I am FLOODED by explanations and excuses, some good, and some really really bad.

But to go to the source of the problem, people often do not quite know what they really want. We have the recurring question here at the forum, something like this: "so guys, I am 24 years old and I have just started to play the piano. Do you think I have any chances to become a famous concert pianist? I learned La Campanella in a week and people say I am really good. What do you think?"

Here we get the standard bunch of replies: "Of course not, unless you did not start at the age of 3 you are lost, man" or "Of course, if you just put your mind into it, you can do whatever you want" or "how the h*ll are WE supposed to know, we have not even heard you play!"

I usually reply with No. 2, but at the same time ... well, if you really want to become a famous concert pianists, then you should not bother to hang on a stupid Internet forum, asking questions to a bunch of ignorant strangers. You should be far too occupied WORKING on your new career to have time to even be on the Internet, even less to ask about opinions from strangers.
Question is: what do you REALLY want in this case? Ok, so I want to be a famous pianist myself. Or rather, I would love to be on stage, dressed like a queen, and receive beautiful flowers while a big, roaring audience gives me standing ovations and fans gather at my feet, yelling for my attention, and critics write raving reviews about my talent and people at Pianostreet rank me as Leading Lady of the whole piano world. Yes, I want praise, I want to have nice dresses, I want to get lovely flowers and tons of flattering attention. I want to live my life at a truly magnificent Steinway D - we would look SO GOOD together! - and I want to socialize with interesting celebrities and life The Good Life in general and be a guest at David Letterman and ...

All right, you got it. I also want to master this wonderful music which I adore.  But what about the dark side of fame, do I want that too? Do I want to practice day and night and sacrifice practically everything else I enjoy? Do I want to live half my life in impersonal hotel rooms and uncomfortable flights, do I want to sit there alone in the dark when the audience has gone home, do I want the difficult economical conditions, the mean critics, the creepy stalkers, the rough venues, the horror pianos, the conductors from hell, the stage fright, the tough competition, the pain in my hands? I know enough about the life of concert pianists to know that it is not that glamorous. That you could become the MOST FAMOUS of them all - still the majority of the world population won't know who you are, and/or not give a d*mn.

So the truth is that I don't want to become a famous pianist at all. I want to live a good life. I want ... to be happy. It is as simple as that. And I ALSO want to play and learn music pieces, but I have realized that I need nobody else's praise to do that. I am happy when I sit here in my own nice living room and learn something new, and that fame thing ... well, maybe I can get it in some other way then. Maybe I don't have to be on that stage, by the way. I can just as well sit in the audience and look good. I can buy flowers for myself.

This is a photo from my lving room, this is the reality in which I live. I play that piece, not very well, but if I want to hear a master's version I have it on a CD. So? If you "want" something, then investigate thoroughly what you REALLY want in this. You will most likely get what you want, if you just want it badly enough, and if you really know what it is.

[Bob]

I think some of those 'want to' people do actually study what they want when they have more time.  They might like to study it now, but it gets pushed out by other things or the negatives of reconfiguring their life outweigh how much they like having the new ability.

[outin]

People think too much so they end up doing nothing. I have the benefit of not thinking much about the future. If I want something enough, I go for it, not worrying much about what happens next. Also I may do things simply because there's no reason not to...Never made any career plans, just took the opportunities when they emerged. On the other hand I rarely have things I want enough to work really hard for them. Mostly I prefer things that give me pleasure with little effort. All those "I wish I could/had" thoughts seem useless to me.

When I decided that I want to learn how to play some things on the piano I just bought a piano and started lessons. I occasionally question my sanity now, but I'm already too deep in it to turn back even though it proved out to be much more effort that I ever imagined (even with my previous experiences). It also requires so much time that I had to give up some other things, but I think I was ready to do that anyway. Looking back I think it's good that I didn't look before I dived 

[coda_colossale]

Learning how to learn something is difficult and can be really frustrating.

[nyiregyhazi]

All true, I can't disagree with anything here.

Something that can also be very important is the expectation of success--you might want the result, you might be willing to put a lot of work into it, but if you think you're not in a position to actually achieve that goal, it may not be rational to even start working towards it. (Unless you see value in the process itself.)

And maybe "I want to learn a foreign language" is just an imprecise way to say "I want to know a foreign language". But if you really want to "learn" it, then start learning it. It's an infinitely more achievable goal than mastering a foreign language.

I do take your point, and it's often very true. But even if we make that distinction, someone can genuinely want to do the learning process, yet never have got to it.

I'd like to try yoga and plates classes in the gym I go to. Not because I wish I could do magically do the splits today but because I'm interested in the steady improvement process. I'd genuinely like to go but haven't yet got around to it. Does that mean I don't actually have any true interest in the process? No, because that's the very bit that interests me and what I genuinely do intend to sign up for, at some stage. You raise pertinent points, but it's not all so straightforward as people wanting an inflated end result without genuinely being interested by the learning process. People can genuinely want something but not take action. Just because a guy on the dole hasn't yet started a huge profitable business, it doesn't mean he doesn't "want" to be a Millionaire.

Also regarding positive thinking, you don't magically become a concert pianist just because you want it enough. And neither does its logical counterpart follow that anyone who doesn't reach concert standard necessarily wasn't dedicated enough. I know people who practised 8 hours per day but who were awful pianists. Anyone who thinks that means they didn't really "want" it enough would be totally missing the point. Putting the effort in gives a chance, not a guarantee of success. When positive thinking turns into delusional blind optimism, it's a lucky and small handful indeed who get to their end goal.

[fore]

I have been into this affirmation stuff thinking for decades by now, long before anyone had heard about "The Secret" ...

The concept has been misused and misinterpreted many many times, and people have even made money from trashing it. But it works, it definitely works, and I have got it proved more times than I can count. I have learned that if you want to be or have something, you will probably get it if you only have the courage to go for it. You can always make up excuses, there are probably one million of them, but most of them are really nothing but excuses.  

I don't know what post of mine the OP referred to above, but actually I agree. People often tell me that they want this and they want that, and when I say "why don't you just do it, then?" I am FLOODED by explanations and excuses, some good, and some really really bad.

But to go to the source of the problem, people often do not quite know what they really want. We have the recurring question here at the forum, something like this: "so guys, I am 24 years old and I have just started to play the piano. Do you think I have any chances to become a famous concert pianist? I learned La Campanella in a week and people say I am really good. What do you think?"

Here we get the standard bunch of replies: "Of course not, unless you did not start at the age of 3 you are lost, man" or "Of course, if you just put your mind into it, you can do whatever you want" or "how the h*ll are WE supposed to know, we have not even heard you play!"

I usually reply with No. 2, but at the same time ... well, if you really want to become a famous concert pianists, then you should not bother to hang on a stupid Internet forum, asking questions to a bunch of ignorant strangers. You should be far too occupied WORKING on your new career to have time to even be on the Internet, even less to ask about opinions from strangers.
Question is: what do you REALLY want in this case? Ok, so I want to be a famous pianist myself. Or rather, I would love to be on stage, dressed like a queen, and receive beautiful flowers while a big, roaring audience gives me standing ovations and fans gather at my feet, yelling for my attention, and critics write raving reviews about my talent and people at Pianostreet rank me as Leading Lady of the whole piano world. Yes, I want praise, I want to have nice dresses, I want to get lovely flowers and tons of flattering attention. I want to live my life at a truly magnificent Steinway D - we would look SO GOOD together! - and I want to socialize with interesting celebrities and life The Good Life in general and be a guest at David Letterman and ...

All right, you got it. I also want to master this wonderful music which I adore.  But what about the dark side of fame, do I want that too? Do I want to practice day and night and sacrifice practically everything else I enjoy? Do I want to live half my life in impersonal hotel rooms and uncomfortable flights, do I want to sit there alone in the dark when the audience has gone home, do I want the difficult economical conditions, the mean critics, the creepy stalkers, the rough venues, the horror pianos, the conductors from hell, the stage fright, the tough competition, the pain in my hands? I know enough about the life of concert pianists to know that it is not that glamorous. That you could become the MOST FAMOUS of them all - still the majority of the world population won't know who you are, and/or not give a d*mn.

So the truth is that I don't want to become a famous pianist at all. I want to live a good life. I want ... to be happy. It is as simple as that. And I ALSO want to play and learn music pieces, but I have realized that I need nobody else's praise to do that. I am happy when I sit here in my own nice living room and learn something new, and that fame thing ... well, maybe I can get it in some other way then. Maybe I don't have to be on that stage, by the way. I can just as well sit in the audience and look good. I can buy flowers for myself.

This is a photo from my lving room, this is the reality in which I live. I play that piece, not very well, but if I want to hear a master's version I have it on a CD. So? If you "want" something, then investigate thoroughly what you REALLY want in this. You will most likely get what you want, if you just want it badly enough, and if you really know what it is.

What an awesome post bronnestam!  I had my first instructors' piano party/very informal recital of his students.  Ranged from me, 1.5mos to 25 yrs of playing experience.  I left feeling inspired to become as good as those adv. players.  I'll practice everyday...but I'll not delude myself to thinking I'll probably be that good.  Heck, I doubt I'll live another 25yrs lol  But I do want to become that good, and there's always the possibility that I can if I can practice enough, I 'could' become that good.  There's the clincher.  You have to want something, act on it, and just go with it and see what happens.
Chris

[m1469]

Wanting something too much can actually reach a point of working against a person and their true nature.  Life, and our experience of it, is not only dependent upon our own desires.  We are in constant relationship with all that is, and all that is is not simply a matter of what an individual person believes they want at a particular point in time and for a particular reason.  Therefore, in our pursuits sometimes we may experience a sense of harmony with life and sometimes we may not, while the desire for a thing and the action towards attaining it may remain the same.  And if an individual's desires are actually working against oneself, it is time to pay attention and reconsider one's path.

[gregh]

I usually reply with No. 2, but at the same time ... well, if you really want to become a famous concert pianists, then you should not bother to hang on a stupid Internet forum, asking questions to a bunch of ignorant strangers. You should be far too occupied WORKING on your new career to have time to even be on the Internet, even less to ask about opinions from strangers.

I'm just going to work this part a little bit.

I'd let them hang on an Internet forum--they have to do something during their ten minute break between morning and afternoon practice. It's new and exciting, and they're seeking not only guidance and advice, but also culture and community. And every once in a while something does come out of here that can be taken to the keyboard.

But if they really want to gear up for a new career, they should consider that looking for a job or preparing for a job should be considered a full-time job. In the ideal, anyway. Most of us already have jobs, and other responsibilities as well. But if you're thinking in terms of a new career, whatever it is, it's something you should take seriously with scheduled practice time, lessons (or other necessary investments), and a general plan for getting from here to there.

If people do that, I think other people would be amazed at what they can accomplish. (The people doing it won't be amazed--they know how much work they're putting into it!)

But then I've thought that even the ability to plan, to put in sustained effort for a distant goal, well, maybe not everyone has that in them, just as not everyone has the genetics for pro sports. Some people have a scary ability to remember things, and most of us don't. Some people, even autistic, can do mathematical calculations in their heads that astonish the rest of us. Some people are biologically incapable of carrying a tune or understanding music as anything but noise with some order to it (in fact, there's a bunch of music-specific disorders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music-specific_disorders).

Not that I've studied it, but I think there's this meta-talent level, or learning how to learn level, that some people are better at than others, and some people aren't very good at it and won't become good at it. I've wondered if I'm one of them.

[gregh]

Also regarding positive thinking, you don't magically become a concert pianist just because you want it enough. And neither does its logical counterpart follow that anyone who doesn't reach concert standard necessarily wasn't dedicated enough. I know people who practised 8 hours per day but who were awful pianists. Anyone who thinks that means they didn't really "want" it enough would be totally missing the point. Putting the effort in gives a chance, not a guarantee of success. When positive thinking turns into delusional blind optimism, it's a lucky and small handful indeed who get to their end goal.

This has started to interest me, especially after seeing a discussion or two on other forums about "talent is over-rated" and recipies to success. Part of it is certainly knowing how to practice--there's the kind of practice that is focused and uncomfortable and works on things you're not good at, and then there's noodling around. But people with similar educational backgrounds and even the same instructors have different levels of success. I don't know what it is, but I don't think it's really correct to say that anyone can do anything. I think it's also hard to predict.

I've also thought about that when reading career-oriented books. The ones whose dreams are dashed on the jagged rocks of reality are not the ones writing books saying that you can get rich doing stuff you love to do.

[momopi]

A recent message by bronnestam made me think of something.

Every once in a while there'll be someone who says something like "I want to learn a foreign language." Well, you know that's not true! If it was, the person would be learning it. He could go to the library, today, get some study materials, and begin without even spending a dime. But he doesn't want to learn it, he wants to have learned it. It's an important difference.

Piano is like that, too.

This guy sounds like a take-charge kind of person. 

I will try to be like that too. Put in the hours! Of hard work!