WTC BACH!!! Richter discussion

[chopin2015]

So, it is said that Richter learnt the 2nd book in 1 month.

Does anyone know how long it took him to learn book I? I would imagine learning book I extensively and completely, plus all theory that is applicable would really help learn the book II much faster.

Discuss!

I don't care if you do not like his pedaling on Bach or his interpretation.

I am asking about the process of learning the entire WTC.

As always, it is less ideal to cram music, all the time. Especially something essential and timeless, like the WTC, or the Chopin Ballades or Beethoven, even....

But, it seems like memorizing a Bach book would become natural, if that is exclusively what you work on, and you have a game plan


does anyone have any information on Richter's game plan?

I am still barely putting a dent on book I but I can sing the first few bars of quite a few of the preludes and fugues. haha....

AND/OR

tell me about your WTC experience

OR

any other professional musician's WTC experience

Ok, hope to hear from you!!

[j_menz]

Richter had a vast repertoire, which he played only from memory before 1908 or so, so one would guess he memorised pieces relatively readily.

That said, I'd be surprised if he hadn't read through (at least) much of the second book earlier in his life, so "learnt in a month" might be a slight exaggeration on the part of Bruno Monsaingeon, who seems to be the source of the story (albeit a learned one).

As far as I can tell, he first performed the whole Book I in 1969, and the whole Book II in 1973, so one would think he might have at least dabbled a bit in the intervening years.

[chopin2015]

Agreed! he must have had plenty chances to play or read through any part of the WTC, as well as listen to it as a kid, since his father was quite the pianist, himself.

It is strange how the magic of the WTC works.

You develop technique by playing a variety of repertoire, which helps read and execute Bach, the more effortless Bach is, the less it seems like torture...haha, and then you learn Bach to improve said repertoire. Once you improve said repertoire, you go back to Bach and completely engulf yourself in it, and it is like you are learning a whole new WTC.

at least to me, it is so. I am just not to a point where I know what each of the 24 of the second book sounds like, even though I have listened to both books on repeat, multiple times, now. The first book, I am starting to understand...

Yes, reading through chunks of the WTC is fun, but automatically retaining it, perhaps I need to work on my recall...

I just bought the Richter conversations. Maybe I will find out a little more about his WTC experience...

thanks, jmenz!

[kobethuy]

Well assuming he has tremendous skills (which he has), his game plan might be as followed:

Preludes: learn the chords, most preludes are quite repetitive in the texture so breaking them down into chord changes and such might save you a lot of time memorizing.

Fugues: learn the subject (original, inverted, modulated,etc...), learn the counter-subject, learn the entries, the stretti, the fingering. Subjects entries will more or less be accompanied by the recurring counter-subjects (i.e: Fugue No.22 in Bbm)

[flashyfingers]

Well assuming he has tremendous skills (which he has), his game plan might be as followed:

Preludes: learn the chords, most preludes are quite repetitive in the texture so breaking them down into chord changes and such might save you a lot of time memorizing.

Fugues: learn the subject (original, inverted, modulated,etc...), learn the counter-subject, learn the entries, the stretti, the fingering. Subjects entries will more or less be accompanied by the recurring counter-subjects (i.e: Fugue No.22 in Bbm)

Nice. Yes the preludes are all about sequences and the fugues are much more about Where is it going to go. Actually, I have no idea what I am talking about.

Book II is bloody hard.

[lostinidlewonder]

If you want to memorize the entire set you will have to memorize it in many ways, one easy memory step that needs to be taken is to be able to hear all of the pieces in your head without the sheet music. This sound memory of pieces is important if you want to get to a point where you can play it without the sheet music.

Memorizing the entire set, or being able to play it ALL without the need of sheets is unnecessary imho. Many of the preludes and fugues can be simply sight read and there is no need to commit it to memory because of that. Many fugues benefit simply from multiple fluent sight reading routines rather than bar by bar brute force memorization as you can hear and feel the counterpoint weaving between the hands with good reading repetitions. When you focus on small parts of fugues without having the entire picture in context you can easy get confused by the patterns and they can be elusive to memorize.  You can get away with this in later music but in the fugues you can easily get muddled up because of the "similar but different" situations you constantly come across.

A keen sense of all all b and # in the key signature and the positions they create on the keyboard is important also since the book cycles through them.

[flashyfingers]

If you want to memorize the entire set you will have to memorize it in many ways, one easy memory step that needs to be taken is to be able to hear all of the pieces in your head without the sheet music. This sound memory of pieces is important if you want to get to a point where you can play it without the sheet music.

Memorizing the entire set, or being able to play it ALL without the need of sheets is unnecessary imho. Many of the preludes and fugues can be simply sight read and there is no need to commit it to memory because of that. Many fugues benefit simply from multiple fluent sight reading routines rather than bar by bar brute force memorization as you can hear and feel the counterpoint weaving between the hands with good reading repetitions. When you focus on small parts of fugues without having the entire picture in context you can easy get confused by the patterns and they can be elusive to memorize.  You can get away with this in later music but in the fugues you can easily get muddled up because of the "similar but different" situations you constantly come across.

A keen sense of all all b and # in the key signature and the positions they create on the keyboard is important also since the book cycles through them.

Excellent point!
The slower fugues and some of the medium tempo preludes can indeed be sight-read. I do not intend to memorize the entire set quite yet, but this really applies to memorizing or playing a few p&fs at a time, at performance standard.

thank you!

[kobethuy]

Nice. Yes the preludes are all about sequences and the fugues are much more about Where is it going to go. Actually, I have no idea what I am talking about.

Book II is bloody hard.

well book 2 is obviously longer than the previous one, which adds to the difficulty. However, in contrary to my belief, many people claimed that book 2's pieces are easier to memorize and thus many chose to perform from book 2 rather than book 1.

[flashyfingers]

well book 2 is obviously longer than the previous one, which adds to the difficulty. However, in contrary to my belief, many people claimed that book 2's pieces are easier to memorize and thus many chose to perform from book 2 rather than book 1.

LOL

I laugh at this.

[bachengravings]

In my humble opinion, memory improves with practice and gets worse with age. When I was a kid (14), I would learn a Bach Concerto during the week (only one movement) or a Bach prelude and Fugue and participate and win a piano competition the next weekend. When I got to my mid-twenties, Bach repertoire somehow got much harder to learn. However, Chopin is the reverse. I can still remember them 20 years later. I believe that it's because Chopin wrote in such a pianistic way that my fingers just remember them.

In my formative years, I've never been allowed to perform with sheet music, even in classroom setting. I still have the habit of committing something to memory the first time I learn it. It's a habit that has served me well. Sight-reading should ideally be practiced only with music that you have never heard before. Otherwise, you are not really practicing sight-reading, nor exercising your musical memories. Detailed score study should be done regularly, but it is separate activity from sight-reading. I

[kosulin]

Richter had a vast repertoire, which he played only from memory before 1908 or so, so one would guess he memorised pieces relatively readily.

LOL, he was really fast learner considering that he was born only in 1915 :-)
P.S. I understand that the year was misspelled.