Budget Piano for a relatively New Comer?

[irontheater]

Hey all,

I'm looking into buying a budget Upright Piano, since the thought of playing have been re-growing on me for the last 3-4 years.

I practiced piano for around 6 years, as a kid, but have since stopped. I have the basics that is.

But when it comes to pianos, I really have not physically come close to one in the last 10 years, so I'm not sure if I will be able to tell the difference between them that easily, or distinguish their signatures.

I have no idea what makes a good piano, and what doesn't (materials wise), I'm just looking for a solid piano which can take care of my clumsiness, and help me get back into playing, and possibly go further, much further.

My budget is around $3k - $4.5k, and I don't really mind its make, as long as it's solid, provides a good feel to it, and produces decent notes across the spectrum. (The option of it being Silent is a nice addition for these long nights when I don't want to wake the neighbors)

I was thinking initially of getting the Yamaha B1, but I read on these forums many discouraging thoughts, that made me reconsider my stance. (well, Initially I was looking into getting a Bechstein Hoffmann, but then I choked on the price)

When I do decide, I will most definitely go check it out before buying it, but I'm not sure how much that would help me considering I'm completely out of practice, and don't have a valid comparison standard (me now, vs years ago as a kid, physical strength varies, intentions vary, and the way I hear notes might also have varied along the path).

Any help would be appreciated.

[iansinclair]

Your budget is entirely reasonable, and you should be able to do very nicely with it. 

The first question, though, is: do you have room for a grand?  If so, that would be your best bet.  You should be able find a used Yamaha or Kawai -- not the top end models, but a perfectly good one -- at least 6 feet long which will fit your budget, and that's what I'd be inclined to go for.

If you don't have room for a grand, for less money you should be able to find a recent upright in very good shape.

In either case, if possible find someone who is a good technician/tuner to look it over for you.  You don't have one just now, obviously, but perhaps you have a piano playing friend who could recommend one.  Have them make sure that the instrument is, in fact, in decent shape.

You could also take a look at the digital piano route.  They have some advantages -- they take a lot less space, and you can use them with earphones if you want to practice without bothering other people (or feeling that you are bothering them -- which isn't quite the same thing!).  But there you should be looking near the top end of digital pianos -- in fact, in much the same price range -- and making sure that you consider only instruments which have a real piano action.  Again, Kawai and Yamaha both make very respectable instruments.

[irontheater]

Hey, thanks for the the reply. I forgot to mention that I was looking for an Upright piano (sadly, I don't have the required space for a grand).

And is the idea of buying used generally regarded as a better choice compared to buying new? Wouldn't the piano require tuning/re-tuning fairly frequently if it was an old one?

[hfmadopter]

Hey, thanks for the the reply. I forgot to mention that I was looking for an Upright piano (sadly, I don't have the required space for a grand).

And is the idea of buying used generally regarded as a better choice compared to buying new? Wouldn't the piano require tuning/re-tuning fairly frequently if it was an old one?

Following up on Ian's digital thought:
A new digital piano in your price range makes for a nice instrument . Two things positive with digital at the least, they never require tuning and the action in the piano you buy will be the same action 6 years from now. A used acoustic is another matter again, acoustics do require tuning ( best twice per year) and do require at some point, some regulation work. However, even a new acoustic piano doesn't get you away from this and also much depends on the climate in your home.

I won't go down the road of new piano selection at this point but there is plenty written in the archives here at Piano Street to keep you reading for some time ! Much to do about opinion and my opinion is I'm not an upright piano fan.. If you have your heart set on strings and wood though, don't get a digital piano.

[quantum]

And is the idea of buying used generally regarded as a better choice compared to buying new? Wouldn't the piano require tuning/re-tuning fairly frequently if it was an old one?

A brand new acoustic piano will require tuning/re-tuning just the same as a used one.  A new piano will not arrive perfectly in tune to your house ready to play, it will need to acclimatize to your home, and then be tuned; similar case for a used one.  It is serious faults such as a cracked pin block or sound board that would be a case for concern in used pianos.  Really, all acoustic pianos will need regular tuning and maintenance. 

[irontheater]

The responses here made me eager to know more about digital pianos.

At first I thought you guys all meant to say Keyboards, which I used to have, and pretty much disliked for the cheap feel of them, how light/unrealistic keys were, and lack of pedals.

But, I've spent almost all evening searching what Digital Pianos were, and their pros and cons.

And I was pleasantly surprised to know that they are in fact not as bad as I thought they were. No, in fact, from what I've seen, this might actually be just what I'm looking for.

I was mindblown when I knew that they generated different sounds for different strokes, and some models register even Half pedals!

The higher end models (which are in my initially set budget) seem pretty sturdy, and from what I've read in the reviews, their strokes are comparable (not exactly like) to acoustic pianos.

They look no worse than an acoustic piano, sound no worse to my untrained ears, and don't look as if they'd break if abused. (the keyboard I used to have would oscillate with every note, almost)

The only 2 cons that I have really picked up are that:
-Lower end models don't have a great variety of pressure sensors/sounds, feel light, cheap
-They don't sounds as good as the mid/high end pianos.

Considering my budget is no where near the $10k mark, the Digital Pianos seem to be the way to go for me. Even the higher end models (possibly eyeing the Yamaha CLP S406) are cheaper than a lot of the lower end pianos.

On top of that, they don't need tuning, and support silent mode/headphones. At least for a starters, this seems like the correct choice for me.

Thanks everyone for chipping in and giving me your thoughts, I would probably have went for the wrong choice if it weren't for you. 

I'll still be visiting the forums mostly for the learning section, because after that long of a hiatus, I know I'll need it.

[hfmadopter]

The responses here made me eager to know more about digital pianos.

At first I thought you guys all meant to say Keyboards, which I used to have, and pretty much disliked for the cheap feel of them, how light/unrealistic keys were, and lack of pedals.

But, I've spent almost all evening searching what Digital Pianos were, and their pros and cons.

And I was pleasantly surprised to know that they are in fact not as bad as I thought they were. No, in fact, from what I've seen, this might actually be just what I'm looking for.

I was mindblown when I knew that they generated different sounds for different strokes, and some models register even Half pedals!

The higher end models (which are in my initially set budget) seem pretty sturdy, and from what I've read in the reviews, their strokes are comparable (not exactly like) to acoustic pianos.

They look no worse than an acoustic piano, sound no worse to my untrained ears, and don't look as if they'd break if abused. (the keyboard I used to have would oscillate with every note, almost)

The only 2 cons that I have really picked up are that:
-Lower end models don't have a great variety of pressure sensors/sounds, feel light, cheap
-They don't sounds as good as the mid/high end pianos.

Considering my budget is no where near the $10k mark, the Digital Pianos seem to be the way to go for me. Even the higher end models (possibly eyeing the Yamaha CLP S406) are cheaper than a lot of the lower end pianos.

On top of that, they don't need tuning, and support silent mode/headphones. At least for a starters, this seems like the correct choice for me.

Thanks everyone for chipping in and giving me your thoughts, I would probably have went for the wrong choice if it weren't for you. 

I'll still be visiting the forums mostly for the learning section, because after that long of a hiatus, I know I'll need it.

A couple of note worthy comments on any piano purchase be it digital or acoustic.

Play as many options as you can get your hands on, even if you don't really know what you are doing at this point. You can still get a feel for the touch and texture of the keys and if you like sitting at the piano.

If you don't feel at home sitting at the piano or feel that you would like it, don't buy it !

On digital, really really do try to play and sit at some at the top of your price range. Really really try to play some Roland and especially Kawai choices. I have to tell you Yamaha makes some nice digitals but the other guys do too and it could just be that Kawai has the closest acoustic feel in keys out there right now and Roland no slouch either. Some with wooden key cores under the skin in the case of Kawai and some with pretty darned close to ivory feel for Roland. So give them all a whirl. Today most of the better digital pianos have a touch and sensitivity more like some grands than uprights. What you will find missing is sympathetic harmonics but they are working on that too. Today's digital's may not be acoustic pianos but they aren't yesterdays keyboards either. But if there is a negative with digital, it's your sound will always be out of speakers, can't get away from that.

Digital with headphones? You will think you are playing a concert grand. getting speakers to do the same thing is another matter.

[indianajo]

In my location, southern Indiana, great used pianos are going to the dump or the flea market every day.  These are fifties and sixties quality brands that were bought and neglected by their owners, except for some furniture polish.  They will typically be way out of tune, because it hasn't been done in forty years.  
I find the idea that uprights need tuning twice a year and regulation occasionally pretty strange.  My Mother's piano, a 1949 Everett, was tuned twice in the eight years I took lessons.  The 1941 Steinway I bought in 2010,  needed seven tunings over two months to get it up to pitch, then held tune for 2 1/2 years.  
I've never known anybody to have  a piano regulated. My '41 Steinway needs one key adjusted because it is sticking in low humidity weather, but there is nothing wrong with the hammer or damper felt.
And I tried a pre-WWII upright at Salvation Army last week a Colombus brand (not a premium brand).  It needs tuning.  The price is $50. It was missing some ivory caps.  The sound is pre-war, which is suitable for Scott Joplin or Fats Waller.  I've heard an original 1820 piano playing Beethoven on the radio from Germany,  the old uprights sound like that to me.  
First off, if you are going to be fast at all, don't buy a piano shorter than 39" tall.  Baldwin and mason & Hamlin make a nice sounding 36" piano, with the Baldwin the faster of the two, but not as fast as my Sohmer.  
Many great pianos in my market go for $100-500 on Craigslist, usually right before the carpet installer comes, or the SuperBowl or March Madness requires the space for a big TV. OTOH, many mediocre pianos that were locally made, sell at $1000-1500.  
To determine if a used wood  piano  is worthy of consideration,  first do a chromatic run on every note.  Keys that stick at this price are not worth considering unless the cause is straps missing, which can be replaced in one minute with polyester fabric.  Play very softly and see if the touch is even.  Oddly many $50 uprights pass this test better than lower price import pianos from the nineties and later (I'm thinking of a 90's Wurlitzer I played recently, that was very uneven when played softly.  I've played a seventies  Wurlitzer that had very even touch).   PLay it loudly and see if any keys double strike. Pick a key and using two hands, strike it repeatedly as fast as possible. Can you outrun the action (bad), or does it strike every time as fast as you can go?
Now open the front.  Look to see the hammers are not scooped back in the middle, the way school and conservatory pianos get.  That kind of continuous hammering beats down felts, whereas home use pianos the felt tends to spring back. Make sure there is no mouse eaten felt.   Make sure the hammer shafts are all straight, and none of the joints in the action are coming unglued.  Look at the straps now, the leather ones tend to come undone in 60 or more years, but polyester shirt material is quite superior. Are all the strings there and are any visibly spliced? Usually near the top.
Look at the soundboard from the back that it is not visibly cracked.  Listen to the tone, however badly it is out of tune, is it pleasing on bass notes, two string notes, three string notes, the top octave?  This is where I've come to hate Yamaha, their bass notes are so boring.  My Mother's 49 Everett had a funny tone mismatch between the two string and three string notes.  Is there any buzzing? You don't want that. Do the pedals work evenly?  Two imports I've played recently a Yamaha and a Schein, had some weird sound damper middle pedal instead of a lower half sustain, which didn't even work on the Schein.  I use the lower half damper pedal (middle pedal) on my 1982 Sohmer for some pieces I play.  
At this point I'm ready to buy or walk away, but you are welcome to involve a proffessional if you wish.  Note many will be tempted to bad mouth anything you find because they can sell you something "better".  

If you buy a superior used piano from a flea market  that the vendor lists on craigslist, somebody will have bought the piano at the above price, tuned it, and perhaps fixed a few things.  the tuning makes them worth more, but take a tuning fork and make sure they are up to pitch already.  (440 for post WWII pianos, A432 for pianos from the twenties or earlier).  If not, you'll have to pay more for tuning up to pitch, and you don't know how tight the holes are.  These flea market pianos run $600-$800 in my area, with free delivery.  

Brands I have found to be good pianos if made before 1990:  Steinway (not school surplus, these are beat to death)  Sohmer, Baldwin, Hamilton by Baldwin, Wurlitzer,  Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, Everett, Goodall.  The brand that was locally made but has a short life (beat to death in military clubs) was Kimbal.  Winter was Kimbal's bargain brand, one I played was the worst piano I have ever touched, yet they list at $1000 frequently here.  Go figure.
There are many many competent pre WWII pianos that go for nothing, because the tone is old fashioned and they weigh 400+ lb, which is more difficult to more.  My '41 Steinway 40" weighs about 300 lb and I believe was the prototype of modern consoles.  The tone is modern, the bass strings use overtones to simulate the bottom octave, which sounds fine to me.  I prefer that sound to the 44" Yamaha my church bought in 2006? which I find really boring to listen to.  The Yamaha is not very loud either, whereas a 40" Baldwin Acrosonic at a church with the charity dinner that I played December will fill a whole 200 seat hall of people layered with overcoats with music.    
Oh, my high school buddy bought a new "superior" Pearl River wood piano in 2010 when I bought the '41 Steinway.  His Pearl River has broken one string four times, but the factory won't send anybody out on warrenty because he is ex-military and didn't keep the paper invoices of the prior service calls.  I'm letting everybody know, my $1000 '41 Steinway was a much better deal.  

Anyway have fun shopping. In this town, new pianos are Yamahas or Boston's, not much choice.
  

[irontheater]

I will definitely try the pianos myself before pulling the trigger.

Luckily, I found a local dealer that carries these 3 brands (Yamaha, Roland, and Kawai), so I will probably try every piano in my price range before deciding on which one to get, since I'm planning to keep it for at least 5-7 years before moving to an acoustic one, and I don't want to be stuck with something I personally don't like, because I know I will end up not using it.