Repeated note-groups help?

[pover]

Hey guys. Recently i was reading some of bernhard's posts regarding how to practice. He advocated the use of repeated note-groups technique to master tricky passages. Currently I'm working on beethoven's op.2 no.1, and I'm having trouble with the prestissimo. Particularly in the 2nd bar, where there's a descending f minor arpeggio (i so hate arpeggios...). Now, since i can't practice this section (LH) using chord attack - as i can't play them as chords with the correct fingering - i decided to try employing the repeated note-groups method, but i need some guidance.

First of all, when i play, say, 1-2 then 2-3 then 3-4, should the speed i play those 2 notes with be the speed I'm aiming for, or slightly below, or slightly above?
2nd, I'm sure i'm supposed to use the intended fingering, but as for rhythm variation, do i start utilizing them after i get to say, 4 notes per group?

And just to make sure i understand correctly, if its a 6 note section (with the 7th note for overlap) It should go like this:
1-2  2-3  3-4  4-5  5-6  6-7
123  234  345  456  567
1234 2345 3456 4567
12345  23456  34567
123456 234567
right? and what type of practice techniques do i apply for each unit of those? So basically, i'd play first 2 notes at the final speed i want them to be at, then do the same for the 2nd group of 2 notes? when i feel i can play them at the final intended speed with the correct fingering, do i move on to the 3 note  groups (123)? and do i just do the same with those 3 notes? what if i have trouble with transition hand positions etc? are there certain practice methods i can use within the repeated note groups? how do i know when to move on to the next unit (4 notes instead of 3)?

I know those are a lot of question, but any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance

[pover]

Bump. Any help please?

[pover]

Sorry to bump again. I was just looking at some threads after a search, and i couldn't find specific answers to these questions. it's just that i want to make sure that i'm doing them correctly, so that i don't end up wasting my time, or practicing them the wrong way. So if anyone has got any experience with those or knowledge of any other practice techniques i can implement to overcome those difficult passages, i would be grateful!

[anima55]

Hi Pover

To be honest, the method of practice which you are describing seems very complicated and unnecessary to me.   I don't really follow what you mean by repeated notes.

My feeling about this is to practise these notes very slowly and evenly, placing each note carefully, and then gradually speed up as you become more fluent.  As time passes, it will become easier and easier.

Just my own thoughts on this.

[worov]

anima55, the repeated notes groups is explained here in these threads :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2449.msg21217/

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=7341.0

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4858.0.html

I have found these threads very interesting. However I haven't used this practice trick. So I can't really help.

[faulty_damper]

Pover,
I think you're confusing that practice technique and arpeggio technique.  The two are different.  You should look for the threads where Bernhard outlines exactly the motions necessary to play arpeggios (search for "arpeggios" by Bernhard).  It's a dense read but all the motions are broken down.  Just follow each of the four steps one by one and you'll understand why those movements work.

[pover]

hey guys, sorry for not getting back to you any sooner - i was busy and couldn't get any time on my PC. anima55, i read the first and last threads that you posted links to, but i think i'll have to read the 2nd one, i'm not exactly sure if i read that.

Faulty_damper, do you mean threads where he discusses thumb over technique to play arpeggios? I find that incredibly difficult and complicated to both understand and perform.
If you guys have any further suggestions, please let me know.