Chopin Nocturne 48/1 - Pedaling the octave section

[perprocrastinate]

I'm having trouble catching the first note of each triplet with the pedal. As implied, I plan to pedal every sixteenth-note triplet (for the most part). I speculate that this problem arises from my struggle to make legato movements. I can play black key octaves with fingering 1-4, but not quickly in succession. Fingering 1-5 (which I am currently using) is definitely comfortable, but I feel that I cannot synchronize the key depression with pedal changes.

Any help is appreciated.

Here is the score.

[j_menz]

Is this page 64-5?  I'm afraid I don't see the pedalling you describe implied.

[perprocrastinate]

Is this page 64-5?  I'm afraid I don't see the pedalling you describe implied.

Yes, those are the pages. And I apologize, it was poor wording on my part. I meant to say that I intend on pedaling every triplet. It's actually my teacher's suggestion.

[j_menz]

Hmm... not sure I agree - maybe half pedal? - but let's leave that aside.

The first note of each triplet is emphasised, so perhaps exaggerate that as an aid to the pedalling? It's often underdone, so you'll  probably get a better result by pulling back from too much anyway, and the extra oomph will assist with the timing of the pedal as you'll feel the pulse better. By the time you're ready to pull back a bit on the emphasis, the timing of the pedal should be second nature.

[cabbynum]

I wouldn't pedal that much. I don't pedal that much.

I used it sparingly through the octave section.




J menz
I'd 1/5th pedal it if anything. Creat a small bit of smoothness but not so much that it becomes muddy

[perprocrastinate]

The first note of each triplet is emphasised, so perhaps exaggerate that as an aid to the pedalling?

Thanks j_menz, I think I'll try that out tomorrow. If the members of my household hear anymore chromatic octaves today, I think they might kill me.

Hmm... not sure I agree - maybe half pedal? - but let's leave that aside.

I wouldn't pedal that much. I don't pedal that much.

I used it sparingly through the octave section.




J menz
I'd 1/5th pedal it if anything. Creat a small bit of smoothness but not so much that it becomes muddy

Can you guys explain partial pedaling to me? I've experimented with depressing the pedal different distances, but never heard any difference in sound.

[j_menz]

Thanks j_menz, I think I'll try that out tomorrow. If the members of my household hear anymore chromatic octaves today, I think they might kill me.

Life's a risk!!

Can you guys explain partial pedaling to me? I've experimented with depressing the pedal different distances, but never heard any difference in sound.

The pedal, as you know, lifts the dampers off the strings.  Fully down, it lifts them all the way off, but there is a point (about halfway, but pianos vary) where the dampers start to connect to the strings. Dampers being felt, it's a gently landing and there's a zone there where the dampening effect is reduced. A little variation around this zone gives a range of dampening "strengths",  Just before it fully connects, you might even hear a little buzzing sound.  By playing around in this area (and use your ears to guide you) you get a much more versatile set of options than just on/off. It takes a fair bit of practice to get the foot control to really work it properly, but it's a very useful skill to develop.

I'm assuming you're on an acoustic. Digitals vary a lot, and lower end ones really are only an on/off switch, with only the later high end ones coming close in terms of versatility.

[quantum]

Yes, use fractional pedaling.  What you need to do is develop coordination and sensitivity between your ear and your foot.  Practice with single notes first, across the entire range of the piano and be very observant of changes in sound relative to your foot movements.  In fractional pedaling you only need very small movements to make large differences in sound, and it all hovers around that sweet spot in the pedal half-way between fully damped and fully undamped. 

Watch the dampers as you pedal to see what they do.  If you play a vertical remove the front panel.  Watch, listen, observe.  Try to get a sense of the mechanics of the dampers and what they are doing to modify sound. 

It may also help your understanding by using your hand to damp the sound.  What happens when you apply light pressure vs heavy pressure?  What happens when you use one finger to damp a string versus the larger area of the palm of your hand? 


As for the Nocturne, the main idea of the octave section is not the octaves themselves, rather it is the chorale tune.  It is the chorale melody that is the most prominent layer within the octave section. 

[nyiregyhazi]

You're missing the feedback loop. Play the octave and then LISTEN to the subtle change as the pedal goes down. If you don't hear that, your hand is not allowed to let go. You're on a preset path with your hands at present and hoping to pedal around that. This will never work. Your hands have to adapt to what you hear. For now, that will require a rhythmic pause while you check that you've heard what you need to hear (which is not merely that the note is still there but also perception of the overtones that arise after the pedal goes down). Only after this is the brain permitted to send out the signal which says the hand can release. Your hands must adapt to your feet as much as your foot tries to fit to your hands. Only by making adaptations from both sides can you reach the stage where your foot never misses.

Even if I'm not lingering on the first octave, my hand knows that it isn't allowed to let go unless my foot has done it's thing with certainty. Unless you ingrained this fail safe mechanism first via the ear, trying to time the foot to the hands will not help. You need to totally reverse the perspective first and begin by syncing your hands to the foot. Given time, your hands will no longer be limited by having to wait for the foot, as the foot will learn to time more precisely.