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Topic: "Music is" ... here's my problem:  (Read 4285 times)

Offline m1469

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"Music is" ... here's my problem:
on: February 27, 2014, 07:09:02 PM
"Music is the science of sounds; therefore sound is the principal subject of music." - from Rameau's Treatise on Harmony, Chapter One, first sentence.

It is the opening premise on what this book is based on, and I instantly have a multitude (an unidentifiable, possibly infinite amount) of questions, objections, disagreements, agreements ... to the point where I can't think.  How am I supposed to read the rest of this book, while I am stumped on the very first sentence and the premise which this book is based upon?  This rattling around in my mind ... GRRRRRRRR  >:( >:(
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline kalirren

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 07:17:44 PM
French writers of that period were apt to be pretty Platonic in their thought, much more so than we are now.  Don't let it get to you.  When an assertion like that looks overly simple, I think it's because that's exactly what it was intended to be: distilled in simplicity, the better to approach some Formal truth, in whose existence they had faith.
Beethoven: An die Ferne Geliebte
Franck: Sonata in A Major
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Prokofiev: Sonata for Flute in D Major

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 07:28:56 PM
Well, I have no choice but to shove it into a box where I treat it as only a part of a greater idea, though it will act like and pose as the whole idea.  So, I assume that while I am reading I will constantly need to filter and dissect and categorize between this particular line of thinking and my own - which means it will take infinitely more time to glean anything from it.  
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline quantum

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 07:30:41 PM
Read in a non-linear manner.  In other words, not beginning to end.  Save the opening for the very last thing you read.  The statement may make more sense once you have digested what follows it.  



Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 07:57:21 PM
Well, my initial anger is subsiding enough for me to attempt to read the next sentence (again) and it's so far the same experience.  Perhaps what I am really (actually) interested in/seeking are strategies that people use to read materials, or take in information, while also dealing with a tendency to "fight it" the entire time.  My questions are in and of themselves valid, but I can't think with all that noise in my being, and I can't completely let them go, either.  It is actually quite paralyzing and something which I do not feel anybody has ever understood about me, does not know when it is occurring, and something which I have not been capable of communicating about (instead I would be reduced to tears as the only outlet for so many thoughts at once).  This is actually a very large (recurring) stumbling block for me when it comes to studying and is a very big reason I appreciate intelligent organization from some source outside of myself that may understand this tendency, and may help to give a trail.

So far, what I think is to keep a journal alongside my reading, that is strictly for questions and thoughts that are peripheral to what I am reading, most of which I will need to suffice just to put down on paper and get out of my line of vision, vs. needing to have them all answered and sorted out in this very moment.  And then to also keep another journal that is related only to what I am reading directly, where I can keep track of Rameau's line of thinking and the ideas presented.  I am open to more ideas, though, on study techniques when it comes to what I have outlined as this tendency to fight what I am trying to understand!
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 09:31:58 PM
Ok, I've started my peripheral journal, and here is the first (raw) entry on the tiniest tidbit of the first sentence:

Rameau:  Music is the science of sounds; (...therefore sound is the principal subject of music.)

Me:  "1.  No.  There exists music which is relative, and music which is absolute.  Relative music, which is what we are referring to, is the organization of human observation of the world and humankind’s intention within context of it, represented in part through sound, all within the relative, human perception and belief of existence as occurring in time."

This is going well ...  :P
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 01:20:32 AM
Well, now that I've cleared up for myself the second point of that sentence, as well as the next sentence, I am able to move on with a better head.  So far I've read a few sentences, including some footnotes ... let's see how long this lasts.  Carry on  ;D

PS-  No-show student ( >:() = I get to actually study something for a few minutes  :P
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline lateromantic

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #7 on: February 28, 2014, 03:22:59 PM
"Music is the science of sounds; therefore sound is the principal subject of music." - from Rameau's Treatise on Harmony, Chapter One, first sentence.

It is the opening premise on what this book is based on, and I instantly have a multitude (an unidentifiable, possibly infinite amount) of questions, objections, disagreements, agreements ... to the point where I can't think.  How am I supposed to read the rest of this book, while I am stumped on the very first sentence and the premise which this book is based upon?  This rattling around in my mind ... GRRRRRRRR  >:( >:(
Give old Jean-Philippe a little credit:  He was trying to make a point.  He was arguably the originator of modern music theory (building on the discoveries of Mersenne), and his purpose in that tome was to emphasize how music relates to the physical attributes of sound (especially the overtone series).  Of course it had been understood since ancient times that music used mathematical relationships, but before Rameau's era that was usually construed in more mystical or Platonic/Pythagorean terms:  Music reflected the "music of the spheres," the guiding mathematics of the universe.  But if Rameau observed that there was a non-mystical, physical basis for music, the genius of his compositions nevertheless makes it amply clear that he understood that music was very much an art, and not just a science.

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #8 on: February 28, 2014, 04:53:06 PM
I don't doubt his contributions!  And I believe I have a lot to gain from reading this book.  But, I struggle (quite a bit) with non-holistic ideas, so much so that it's actually nearly impossible for me to gain anything from them if I cannot somehow bridge the information I am receiving into holistic concepts myself.  It is very difficult for me to take in information, in a meaningful way, without considering almost everything else about existence and being (that I can) along with it.  I am always aware that there is some kind of context from which the information I am being given is being presented, even if I don't know what that context actually is.  I can't help but know that there were religious, philosophical, psychological, social, political, geographic, technological, educational (etc.) tendencies of the time, and that part of Rameau's own perspective was afloat amid a sea of what came before him regarding all of that, too, as well as whatever was occurring in his own lifetime.  And then, I am a reader with my own set of influences.  So, if I have "one" question, it's more like an infinite number of questions ... heaven forbid I have two questions!  :P

Because of all of this, it can take me a very long time (years) to fully digest information and turn out a pearl.  I have very rarely been able to deal well with standard schooling because of this, and just having gained a post high school degree at all was an epic effort of keeping the blinders on and looking in a single direction.  I'm guessing this is something that people who have always had access to correctly-fitted educational resources and support systems know pretty much nothing about  :-*
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #9 on: February 28, 2014, 05:00:18 PM
And, hey, for me, just being capable of writing about this is like breaking out of a monster shell or opening one eye after a deep, deep, centuries-long sleep!  BAM!  :D
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline lateromantic

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #10 on: February 28, 2014, 07:45:13 PM
I don't doubt his contributions!  And I believe I have a lot to gain from reading this book.  But, I struggle (quite a bit) with non-holistic ideas, so much so that it's actually nearly impossible for me to gain anything from them if I cannot somehow bridge the information I am receiving into holistic concepts myself.  It is very difficult for me to take in information, in a meaningful way, without considering almost everything else about existence and being (that I can) along with it.  I am always aware that there is some kind of context from which the information I am being given is being presented, even if I don't know what that context actually is.  I can't help but know that there were religious, philosophical, psychological, social, political, geographic, technological, educational (etc.) tendencies of the time, and that part of Rameau's own perspective was afloat amid a sea of what came before him regarding all of that, too, as well as whatever was occurring in his own lifetime.  And then, I am a reader with my own set of influences.  So, if I have "one" question, it's more like an infinite number of questions ... heaven forbid I have two questions!  :P

Because of all of this, it can take me a very long time (years) to fully digest information and turn out a pearl.  I have very rarely been able to deal well with standard schooling because of this, and just having gained a post high school degree at all was an epic effort of keeping the blinders on and looking in a single direction.  I'm guessing this is something that people who have always had access to correctly-fitted educational resources and support systems know pretty much nothing about  :-*
First, as a reader, your best approach might be just to try to absorb the book for what it is first and to wait until you've finished it (or read as much as you planned to read) before trying to assimilate it into a larger context and making a final evaluation of it.

Perhaps what struck me the most in Rameau's writings was his theory of dissonance and his explanation of how it creates forward motion in music.  I sometimes think of that when I hear that perpetual-motion, boundless energy effect in late Baroque music.  In this Rameau, like other writers of his time, was probably influenced by the new Newtonian system and the associated idea that the universe itself is a kind of clockwork, constantly propelled forward by physical forces.

It's not easy reading.  My reading was in a graduate school course.  I also used a few pages of it for an annotated translation (French to English) project.

Offline ignaceii

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #11 on: February 28, 2014, 08:45:07 PM
That heavens to me to. That's why I had many disagreements with teachers early on.
Now, passed 50, we tend to let the man speak out. And who am I confronted with Rameau on harmony. What did we to clarify or correct further his ideas ? I'd be humble in a sense.
But if you start seeing it all from different perspectives at once, you are lost.
Keep focused on 1 thing at the time, and the calmer you are, the better you will understand at the end why he wrote the first sentence.

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #12 on: February 28, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
First, as a reader, your best approach might be just to try to absorb the book for what it is first and to wait until you've finished it (or read as much as you planned to read) before trying to assimilate it into a larger context and making a final evaluation of it.

Perhaps what struck me the most in Rameau's writings was his theory of dissonance and his explanation of how it creates forward motion in music.  I sometimes think of that when I hear that perpetual-motion, boundless energy effect in late Baroque music.  In this Rameau, like other writers of his time, was probably influenced by the new Newtonian system and the associated idea that the universe itself is a kind of clockwork, constantly propelled forward by physical forces.

It's not easy reading.  My reading was in a graduate school course.  I also used a few pages of it for an annotated translation (French to English) project.


Thank you!  Well, I turned to it (again) yesterday specifically because I have thoughts, ideas, and questions about harmony, and a big portion of that is already linked to a more holistic concept that is fairly specific to me.  I went to it to try to understand harmony better, but also to try to understand myself and even the world better.  This is going to be quite different than if study is being done in the context of something like graduate school, where there are people to discuss ideas with.  The reality is that, yesterday, I resorted to laying on the floor and crying until I could calm down enough to read a children's book about the Goldberg Variations, which I have in my library for my students but have never read before.  That is actually true.  And then I could read a tiny bit more of Rameau, clarify a couple of ideas in my own head, and post something about it.  I do not think that kind of intense reaction is normal for most people, and while in my case it is not an automatic reaction every time I'm in a learning process, it is not entirely abnormal for me either.

Well, break's over, time to get teaching!
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #13 on: February 28, 2014, 11:48:40 PM
Honestly, I have taken this to be a possible learning disability, which has never been exposed in any particular form.  I don't know if there would be any name or some collection of names that would fit, but it has been present for many years and, as I have said, it has greatly affected my ability for normal study (among other aspects of life).  But missing gigantic amounts of normal study because of it, has also not helped.

I seem to do quite well in very safe, calm environments where I feel free to be myself, free to explore, have felt true and loving guidance, where I feel acknowledged and accepted as the intelligent being that I am, and where I have felt as though whatever I am coming to understand in the learning environment is something which I can utilize in some form for the rest of my life.  I don't remember a single class in middle school or high school which resembled that kind of learning environment for me, though I found some forms of it in undergrad between two different Universities (not every class, mind you, and not necessarily linked to class size), and then often with my private teachers.

I am also hyper aware and hyper sensitive, especially to other people and I need -zero- "extra stimulus" to be present and engaged with somebody who is also present and engaged.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

theholygideons

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 12:14:29 AM
Ok, I've started my peripheral journal, and here is the first (raw) entry on the tiniest tidbit of the first sentence:

Rameau:  Music is the science of sounds; (...therefore sound is the principal subject of music.)

Me:  "1.  No.  There exists music which is relative, and music which is absolute.  Relative music, which is what we are referring to, is the organization of human observation of the world and humankind’s intention within context of it, represented in part through sound, all within the relative, human perception and belief of existence as occurring in time."

This is going well ...  :P
What the flying f*ck does your argument have to do with Rameau's proposition. What you're reading is about Rameau's treatise on harmony, so the relationship between sounds is basically what you'd expect from such a book. It's a book on musical phonology and syntax in which the hierarchy of tones and the composition of triads all originated from the overtone series and dominant, tonic relationships. What you're talking about, 'organization of human observation of the world and humankind’s intention within context of it', is completely irrelevant to the purely practical side of harmony. What you're referring to is more about musical semantics, i.e. the deeper meaning that arises from the composer's use of a specific sequence of chords, for the purpose of evoking an emotional or intellectual response within the listener, which you could investigate further, perhaps by watching Leonard Bernstein's musicology lectures from Harvard.

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 12:16:35 AM
What the flying f*ck does your argument have to do with Rameau's proposition. What you're reading is about Rameau's treatise on harmony, so the relationship between sounds is basically what you'd expect from such a book. It's a book on musical phonology and syntax in which the hierarchy of tones and the composition of triads all originated from the overtone series and dominant, tonic relationships. What you're talking about, 'organization of human observation of the world and humankind’s intention within context of it', is completely irrelevant to the purely practical side of harmony. What you're referring to is more about musical semantics, i.e. the deeper meaning that arises from the composer's use of a specific sequence of chords, for the purpose of evoking an emotional or intellectual response within the listener.

*Does not compute  ;D*

PS - I would like to suggest that you try out "freaky french fry" instead of "flying f*ck" sometime.  I've resorted to it on several occasions and it's actually pretty satisfying!
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

theholygideons

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #16 on: March 01, 2014, 12:21:22 AM
Does not compute  ;D
... You seem incredibly ignorant. Have you watched Leonard Bernstein's lectures on phonology, syntax and semantics? perhaps that may open your eyes.

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #17 on: March 01, 2014, 12:33:46 AM
What the flying f*ck does your argument have to do with Rameau's proposition. What you're reading is about Rameau's treatise on harmony, so the relationship between sounds is basically what you'd expect from such a book. It's a book on musical phonology and syntax in which the hierarchy of tones and the composition of triads all originated from the overtone series and dominant, tonic relationships. What you're talking about, 'organization of human observation of the world and humankind’s intention within context of it', is completely irrelevant to the purely practical side of harmony. What you're referring to is more about musical semantics, i.e. the deeper meaning that arises from the composer's use of a specific sequence of chords, for the purpose of evoking an emotional or intellectual response within the listener, which you could investigate further, perhaps by watching Leonard Bernstein's musicology lectures from Harvard.

... You seem incredibly ignorant. Have you watched Leonard Bernstein's lectures on phonology, syntax and semantics? perhaps that may open your eyes.

Do you think that, if formalized learning structures have no interest in helping somebody like me to learn, I ought to have interest in learning within formal learning structures?
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

theholygideons

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #18 on: March 01, 2014, 01:54:19 AM
Do you think that, if formalized learning structures have no interest in helping somebody like me to learn, I ought to have interest in learning within formal learning structures?
Not sure. But I think you're thinking too much ahead, when you're learning.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 01:55:45 AM
i can definitely see how the first sentence may come off as an oversimplification, or "missing the point", but you shouldn't limit your perspective. Even if you have this "disability" that makes you incompatible with regimented styles of learning, you should try to push aside your misgivings so you can read the freaking book.

theholygideons

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 02:09:32 AM
yes, the 'freaking' book.

Offline Bob

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #21 on: March 01, 2014, 03:26:16 AM
The translator is going to influence those lines, French to English.

You could 'cheat' and see what other people say about the treatise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Philippe_Rameau
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait%C3%A9_de_l%27harmonie_r%C3%A9duite_%C3%A0_ses_principes_naturels

1722... They're not thinking that same way about music back then.  

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b86232459

https://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/18th/RAMTRA1_TEXT.html
https://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/18th/RAMTRA2_TEXT.html
https://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/18th/RAMTRA3_TEXT.html
https://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/18th/RAMTRA4_TEXT.html
https://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tfm/18th/RAMTRAS_TEXT.html


Just accept that's what he was thinking.  Music is science.  It's made up of sound.  So study sound.  Want to study music?  Then study what it is -- sound.  Sounds kind of like a generic opening line.  Pretty broad.  You don't have to agree with it.  That's just where he coming from, his philosophy, and that's how he'll be discussing music in the whole treatise probably.  

I'd lean towards Rameau.  He said what he meant in a sentence or two.  Music = sound.  Study sound.  And I'd follow everyone who's saying this influence music theory, etc.  Rameau must be saying something pretty important.



https://www.musicacademyonline.com/composer/biographies.php?bid=38     ::)
Probably ok, however credible this site is...
"Among the important contributions of this treatise was first, its identification of the bass as the theoretical generator of harmony (although practicing musicians had recognized it as such for some time). Second, the treatise was also the first work to address chord roots and inversions.  Significantly, Rameau’s treatise influenced music theory for the next two hundred years."
So, he says the bass is very important and you can invert chords and it's still the same chord.
Is this the guy who first said, "This is the major scale, and this is the minor scale?"
All that sounds like it's following that opening line.  Maybe he meant "tones" instead of "sound."

Might be something interesting here...
https://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Harmony-Dover-Books-Music/product-reviews/0486224619/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1


And there's got to be a ton of masters and doctoral work on this.  This is the kind of stuff academics will eat up and write papers and analyze over and over.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline kevin69

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #22 on: March 01, 2014, 03:54:42 AM
Ok, I've started my peripheral journal, and here is the first (raw) entry on the tiniest tidbit of the first sentence:

Rameau:  Music is the science of sounds; (...therefore sound is the principal subject of music.)

Me:  "1.  No.  There exists music which is relative, and music which is absolute.  Relative music, which is what we are referring to, is the organization of human observation of the world and humankind’s intention within context of it, represented in part through sound, all within the relative, human perception and belief of existence as occurring in time."

This is going well ...  :P

Could you explain what you mean by 'absolute music' please?

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #23 on: March 01, 2014, 05:29:31 AM
Could you explain what you mean by 'absolute music' please?

No, I can't yet, actually.  I didn't even mean to put what I did into words, it just came out.

Thanks for all of the comments, guys!  I have been on a trail for a while, of some particularly deep (for me) ideas, and I simply want a way to better clarify and utilize their worth in my life, and in the world.  Despite the fact that my internal filter is constantly working, I am actually quite open and accepting of others, and willing to put myself into another's shoes.  There are many subjects I wish to study, but without a center within myself to bring them to, they are fairly meaningless for me other than if I learned facts in order to pass a test or something like that.  I have never been that type of person, though I understand the need to do a job when a job needs to be done.  

At this point, I am aiming to develop fairly specific concepts, which need quite a bit of work.  I believe in exhausting resources, and Rameau seemed/seems like a good, possible way to shed some light on my thoughts or bring some clarity, whether through agreement or opposition.  For me personally though, even if I am learning through opposition, I believe there is always some kind of starting point where I can at least resonate with the other's viewpoint and somehow get on board with the process of clarification.  I just need to find a way to resonate very quickly, and that's it!  I just haven't fully found it yet, and it's hard for me to get much from it until I do (though, maybe I will very soon!).  And since I am dealing with fairly specific concepts that are particularly deep (for me), ultimately I would like to find the right match in my collaborations.

If I could magically change this learning process for me, believe me I would (have already done it ages ago).  It has dramatically altered my life and most of the time, much to my dismay!
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline awesom_o

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #24 on: March 01, 2014, 01:17:30 PM
Could you explain what you mean by 'absolute music' please?

Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_music

Quite a distinct category from this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_music

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #25 on: March 01, 2014, 08:12:25 PM
Here is an example of how I tend to think.  If I take that same opening sentence "Music is the science of sounds; (...)"

And then simultaneously link it to the idea that all that has existence is, essentially, energy ... which, essentially, means it has a vibration ... and that all sound is fundamentally linked to or is itself fundamentally vibration ... then I am starting to get on board with reading this book in a meaningful-to-me way.  My mind and being wants to read it like that -or perhaps can't read it any other way- as a fundamental starting point for gaining a higher concept.

But it has taken me this long since I first started this thread to find a way to get on board with the first idea presented.  And it has taken me however long (years?) since the first time I picked the book up to start to read it again.  And during that time, I have been undergoing immense personal growth, which has also been necessary it seems for me to reach a point to be able to start to read this in a meaningful-for-me way.  Imagine if this were a reading assignment that I had to try to fit into shorter timelines ... I could manage something, I'm sure ... perhaps it would all mean I can focus my growth into more condensed packages ... but it gets a big tricky.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ignaceii

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #26 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:57 PM
Lay down, close your eyes, imagine you are in heaven, ever calm, calmer and calmer. Feel the chakras starting to resonate in perfect harmony. Because heaven is perfect harmony.
Open your eyes after half an hour, and smile at the book. Rameau is now your friend.

Offline kevin69

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #27 on: March 02, 2014, 02:37:03 AM
When people state something as fact that i find infuriating,
a trick that works for me is to (mentally) insert the phrase
'From my perspective,' in front of what they have said.

This converts a statement which i think is false into a misguided
opionion of a viewpoint which is different to mine because the
other person has had different experiences.

Having different perspectives on a subject is something that i find much easier
to deal with without getting angry and aggressive.

So in this case:

Rameau: Music is primarily about sound.
m1469: Music is primarily about emotion.
Both: You are wrong. I can learn nothing from you.

becomes:

Rameau: From my perspective, music is primarily about sound.
mayla: From my perspective, music is primarily about emotion.

and from there both parties can respect each others perspective, experience and
knowledge and learn something from each other because its easy to accept that
different viewpoints let you different aspects of the same thing (in this case music)
Hopefully, anyway :)

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 03:52:03 AM
I don't believe in emotions  - that's actually true   ;D :-*

ignaceii, thanks :)
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ahinton

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #29 on: March 02, 2014, 12:14:00 PM
I don't believe in emotions
Then I am very, very sorry for you.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline awesom_o

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #30 on: March 02, 2014, 02:16:37 PM
m1469,

You should play some Rameau!

His music plays wonderfully on the modern piano.

I find it very emotionally engaging music to play, myself!

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #31 on: March 02, 2014, 03:52:53 PM
No need to feel sorry for me, Alistair!  I am not devoid of soul.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ahinton

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #32 on: March 02, 2014, 05:35:22 PM
No need to feel sorry for me, Alistair!  I am not devoid of soul.
I did not for one moment suggest that you were/are; I merely stated that if you do not believe in (human) emotions I am very, very sorry for you (not least because belief or otherwise in something whose very existence is an irrefutable fact seems to be rather pointless)...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ignaceii

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #33 on: March 02, 2014, 07:03:18 PM
Someone who doesn't believe in emotions, should better not be involved in music, because music is expresses the inner person of the composer, showing his emotions in his music.
Or you can compose for electronic devices, who are robots, like you in a sense.
What do you think when you cry, you don't, you cry as an outburst of inner emotions.
Long ago, when I was on piano street I saw your name passing on a lot of topics, always pretty long stories you have to tell.
I closed the door behind piano street because of the many me against you debates, spoiling the subject.
Here I am again, how long, I don't know. But you are still here, not devoid of soul, but I think you are searching for your soul. Soulsearchers are very emotional, so I don't give you many chances of finding it. You only have to think about Schubert. If you can read him of course without.
It's all in the title, Music is ???, you don't know, but you want to know, because you feel there is something missing. It is simple, Music is emotion, written down in its harmonic language.
It tells us many things.
I'm not a native english speaker, so, some words don't come to me as I would like.
Next time, when you cry or laugh, ask yourself the question, is this purely rational, or do I feel something that goes much deeper, and have always denied.
Learn to go deeper. I must have missed your background then, but you need much more, before talking here like hell on piano street. Time you should better spend on what matters.
The image of thousands of children crying, for the death of their parents, in Africa, not emotional.
Get help m1469.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #34 on: March 02, 2014, 08:51:49 PM
mayla probably thinks of emotion in "different terms", so when shes saying she doesn't believe in "emotion", she is probably actually saying she doesn't believe in the standard concept of emotion. E.g. "emotion doesn't exist - only different levels of present experience do!" which is to say she does believe in emotion, but likes to dress it up differently so that she can be edgy and contrary and say that she doesnt believe in emotion.

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #35 on: March 02, 2014, 09:23:20 PM
Well, there is no point in having multiple words in a language if one is not allowed to pick which words best fit the message one is trying to convey.  Of course, words fail a bit!  You know, Relative music fails to express the All, as well.   That is one thing that has always bugged me a bit, people seem to find it fun and cool to say how much higher music is than language, as though the fact that music expresses something unique to itself automatically means it exists at a higher level than anything else.  I don't find that to be true, myself.

It is true though, it is not that I don't think there is an experience we have which we can lable emotion, it is that I believe the idea of human emotion is grander than it seems, and that, yes, the word emotion and its associated meaning is limiting.  I have certainly had my share of "emotion" ...

In general, while it is very nice experience for me to write things out like this, my highest expression of music is indeed not limited to writing about it ... I would ultimately like to share my highest ideas through making music as we think of it in performance.  At least in part.  And performing is not my highest form of musical understanding, either.  I had believed that a teacher/student relationship was somehow holy, too.

Anyhoo, Alistair, perhaps if you insist on feeling sorry for me, I should then feel sorry for you for feeling sorry for me, and in this way we can both use our energy most wisely, I'm sure  ;)

"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline vladimir_gouldowsky

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #36 on: March 02, 2014, 09:28:56 PM
What are you talking about?

Offline Bob

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #37 on: March 02, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
What are you talking about?

Shh.  Don't ask.  You'll never figure it out.  Just enjoy the show.  The thread even got Ahinton dragged in.

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline vladimir_gouldowsky

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #38 on: March 02, 2014, 09:35:49 PM
Haha OK. That .gif won me over.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #39 on: March 02, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
It is true though, it is not that I don't think there is an experience we have which we can lable emotion, it is that I believe the idea of human emotion is grander than it seems, and that, yes, the word emotion and its associated meaning is limiting.
1. you spelled "label" incorrectly.
2. saying that the word "emotion" does not fit human experience is basically saying that the word was invented by aliens, who don't understand us and missed the mark with the word they intended to define our experience. it wasn't. it was invented by people, with the purpose of denoting a certain thing, and that thing is human experience. you can't say that "emotion" doesn't denote human experience, because that is what the word was obviously created for. you're implying the word came before the thing it describes, when it is the exact opposite. i think your definition of emotion is just wrong.
3. being iconoclastic is childish when what you're being contrary about exists only by warping ideas to fit your own notions.
4. pretty sure i was right on the money with my previous post

Offline vladimir_gouldowsky

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #40 on: March 02, 2014, 09:44:50 PM
.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #41 on: March 02, 2014, 09:48:50 PM
I really am not trying to be rude, but I find that some of m1469's posts remind me of Alan Sokal's article in "Social Text". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
"it is becoming increasingly apparent that physical 'reality'" is fundamentally "a social and linguistic construct"
perfect

Offline Bob

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #42 on: March 02, 2014, 09:52:44 PM
I really am not trying to be rude, but I find that some of m1469's posts remind me of Alan Sokal's article in "Social Text". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

Let's discuss over here...
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=54563.0
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #43 on: March 02, 2014, 10:00:11 PM
I am grateful your antics no longer confuse me.  Often I have gone ahead with them for personal reasons, and in belief that it was simply our highest, current ability to relate to one another and I had always felt I saw a higher idea as the motivation behind it.  I believe we have a higher potential though, and I feel I am really ready for that in my life, one way or another.  I wish you no pain, in fact, I'd actually like to take it away from you, and not at the expense of your personal growth.  As you can, please consider me as somebody who cares very much for you and is on your side.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ignaceii

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #44 on: March 03, 2014, 10:00:13 AM
That was the reason, or 1 of them to leave this street. It is getting filled with junky talk by the minute.
Join a forum on Lacan freaks. A  master in inventing complicated things, and gets away with it.

Offline ahinton

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #45 on: March 03, 2014, 03:15:42 PM
I really am not trying to be rude, but I find that some of m1469's posts remind me of Alan Sokal's article in "Social Text". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
And for just one example of the illegitimate offspring of Sokal's work, what about the Postmodernism Generator? (see https://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/)...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 05:05:41 PM
That was the reason, or 1 of them to leave this street. It is getting filled with junky talk by the minute.
Join a forum on Lacan freaks. A  master in inventing complicated things, and gets away with it.


I am struck to tears by the sincerity of this post.  Seriously.  I feel you probably swayed a bit when you typed it, and it really feels me with emoticons  :'( and now I simply must forsake all that is meaningful to me and to go about dumpeding my emoticons into some instrument.  Any instrument.  If only I could possibly know how to be a musical emoticon.  
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline lateromantic

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 08:23:47 PM
... You seem incredibly ignorant. Have you watched Leonard Bernstein's lectures on phonology, syntax and semantics? perhaps that may open your eyes.
I have a feeling that's going to remain The Unanswered Question. ;)

Offline ignaceii

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 09:39:57 PM
I am struck to tears by the sincerity of this post.  Seriously.  I feel you probably swayed a bit when you typed it, and it really feels me with emoticons  :'( and now I simply must forsake all that is meaningful to me and to go about dumpeding my emoticons into some instrument.  Any instrument.  If only I could possibly know how to be a musical emoticon.  
Finally, I got you feeling emotions, that's a fact, and facts can't speak, so you have no possibility to believe or disbelieve in them. A bit of logic, nice hé.
So, yes, shed no tears. Take Lacan street to the right, at the end where the light shines, there it is where you must be.
Sincerely...

Offline m1469

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Re: "Music is" ... here's my problem:
Reply #49 on: March 03, 2014, 09:47:29 PM
Finally, I got you feeling emotions, that's a fact, and facts can't speak, so you have no possibility to believe or disbelieve in them. A bit of logic, nice hé.
So, yes, shed no tears. Take Lacan street to the right, at the end where the light shines, there it is where you must be.
Sincerely...

Yes, you've really got my number!  Today, I had to call in a possible abuse/neglect for a child that I teach at a school.  It took me too long to work up the nerve, just in case I was wrong.  I had noticed a bruise on her neck, and there is a story to what I did next, but many more bruises were noticed on this child by her main teacher.  They are actually sending a case worker out today.  Made me sick to my stomach for this child, actually.  Aside from that, I have been feeling pretty challenged today about several things.  But, I actually still believe as I said before about emotions.  :-  And, perhaps more to your magical point, I am still not going to go sing or sit at the piano today, just like yesterday, just like tomorrow will probably be, and just like the past couple of months have been and next couple will probably be.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
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