Questions about My Piano

[ryankmfdm]

 So here's the deal: I've been playing piano fairly seriously for about 9 months now. This I've been doing on an Korg digital piano, which I like pretty well. My only two complaints are that the speakers seem to not be on par with the actual sound quality of the keyboard and that the keys themselves are a bit noisy, both of which aren't a big deal because I usually practice with isolation headphones on. At any rate, I think it'll be a little while before I outgrow it, but it may happen sooner than I initially expected.

 However, I do have a Preston upright sitting in my living room. There are a couple of issues with it, though. The first being that this instrument is OLD. If I'm not mistaken, this thing was manufactured in the '30s. Secondly, it's pretty out of tune, which I suppose is (in theory) not a huge issue. Finally, the middle pedal (whatever the hell that does) is (presumably) broken--it's permanently depressed, i.e., it won't spring back up.

 What I'm wondering is if there's anything I could do myself before calling a technician to determine whether or not it's worth investing some money in maintaining this thing.

[iansinclair]

Come on.  That's not that old.  My daily practice piano was built in 1898!  And I have a 1904 upright I use a good deal in the summertime.

However.

There are two big questions -- one of which really only a tech can answer (unless you want to try tuning the beast yourself!) but one of which you can.  The one you can is how is the action?  Do the keys work reasonably smoothly?  Do they hold the dampers off, but let them back on?  Do they repeat reasonably well?  If so, at least the action is usable -- which is a big step ahead.  The other question is just how badly out of tune is it, and would it hold a tune if it were tuned?  These are related questions; if it isn't all that bad (no really really squirrely notes!) the chances are that the pins are still reasonably tight, and therefore if the piano were carefully and slowly brought into tune it should stay there.

There is a third question: how's the sounding board?  If it doesn't buzz, however, even some rather unfortunate cracking is tolerable in a practice instrument.

If the answers to both those questions seem reasonably positive, then I'd go ahead and have a technician come in and take a look at it and try tuning it.

[hfmadopter]

I've seen some pretty beat up pianos brought into serviceable use as practice instruments. My Grand also was built in the late 1890's. But to the point I've seen some old pianos even with a bonkers note or two have those pins( to those notes)driven deeper and hold tune just fine. The biggest item on an upright piano is if the pin block is loose and or cracked and will not hold tight to the frame of the piano. One that is loose in this way a decent tech will not even tune, it's a senseless venture at best and can be dangerous at it's worst. If that's good then you have a usable piano, generally speaking. You need a tech to determine that unless you know exactly what to look for. So I'd say you need to book an assessment visit from a tech.

Regarding the middle pedal, it's probably a rod that has slipped off it's position , could be a cracked piece of wood etc etc, again the tech can find this for you unless you feel like digging in yourself. you can't get into a whole lot of trouble there and it will be a long time before you even think of using that pedal anyway if it's not functioning, if ever ..

[ryankmfdm]

 Anything that's over three times my age is old.   

 Anyway, thanks for the replies, ian and hmf. As far as the action goes, it seems fine. I've definitely played nicer pianos where there's less of a difference between the necessary force to depress the lower-octave keys than the higher-octave keys, but I've only really played Steinways, come to think of it. I don't hear any buzzing no matter how fortissimo I play and how many keys I strike simultaneously, so I'd assume that's a good sign.

 You know, come to think of it, it's still in relatively good tune, considering it hasn't been tuned for at least a decade. I was just playing on it the other night, and that occurred to me.

 One more question, though: Whenever I depress one of the keys and look at it from the side, I can tell that the whole thing isn't ivory. It looks almost as though it's just wood coated with ivory or something. I'm assuming this means that the keys aren't authentic ivory. This leads to the question of how would I go about cleaning the keyboard off? It's pretty filthy. If my description isn't 100% clear, I can post a picture of what I'm talking about.

[hfmadopter]

Anything that's over three times my age is old.   

 Anyway, thanks for the replies, ian and hmf. As far as the action goes, it seems fine. I've definitely played nicer pianos where there's less of a difference between the necessary force to depress the lower-octave keys than the higher-octave keys, but I've only really played Steinways, come to think of it. I don't hear any buzzing no matter how fortissimo I play and how many keys I strike simultaneously, so I'd assume that's a good sign.

 You know, come to think of it, it's still in relatively good tune, considering it hasn't been tuned for at least a decade. I was just playing on it the other night, and that occurred to me.

 One more question, though: Whenever I depress one of the keys and look at it from the side, I can tell that the whole thing isn't ivory. It looks almost as though it's just wood coated with ivory or something. I'm assuming this means that the keys aren't authentic ivory. This leads to the question of how would I go about cleaning the keyboard off? It's pretty filthy. If my description isn't 100% clear, I can post a picture of what I'm talking about.

We like pictures here . 

[quantum]

One more question, though: Whenever I depress one of the keys and look at it from the side, I can tell that the whole thing isn't ivory. It looks almost as though it's just wood coated with ivory or something. I'm assuming this means that the keys aren't authentic ivory.

Ivory keys are probably more accurately described as ivory key tops.  Even if you have authentic ivory, it is only for the key tops, the key itself will in all likelihood be wood.  

There are certain characteristics to look for in ivory.  Texture is one, ivory is a porous material and feels nothing like plastic key tops.  It is just an ideal mix of friction and glide, plus sweat from the hands is far less likely to cause a slippery keyboard.  Ivory will have a grain pattern similar to that of a fingerprint.  Ivory tends to wear down, and this is especially noticeable on well played pianos.  The wear can be so severe in some cases that the front edge of the keytop becomes as sharp as a razor blade.  Ivory was commonly installed as a two-part keytop, and the joint line was visible approximately where the black keys ended.  

Some modern keytops try to imitate ivory characteristics, so there isn't a quick rule for identification.

[indianajo]

I use Family Dollar non-chlorine bathroom cleanser to clean musical instruments and electronics.  I put the cleaner on a paper towel and rub with that.  Use the higher quality paper towels that don't leave lint balls, like Sparkle brand. The branded version cleaner is Scrubbing bubbles.  Test before using on the finish, some varnish might be soluable. 
Most family pianos have never been tuned, so loose pin block holes are much less likely than in an old professional grade piano.  
Before spending money on a piano pro, Look carefully for any loose wood joints in the jack and whippet (middle pieces) as some guy on youtube said he charges $800 for regluing all the joints.  Many old uprights don't have this problem, but some do.  Same with the cracked soundboard, if you have one there are lots of old uprights at the charity resale shop, pick another.  
On the upright piano, I'd say do the first 6 or 7 trials at tuning yourself.  Buy a tuning wrench from Steve's, and a tuning fork. wear safety glasses in case the string breaks, and don't pull it up to pitch all at once.  That is the advantage of tuning yourself, the pro wants to make one visit and leave, and several gradual pitch raise events is much easier on the mechanism.  Use the tool carefully not to pull the tuning pin sideways, or up and down.  You need to turn, not push the pin sideways in the hole.  
I rough tune the middle octave in fifths from my one tuning fork, flatting a little as I go because if you go in perfect fifths the top octave is sharp compared to the bottom one.  Then I tune the other octaves in unison with the middle one.
Then when you are close to pitch on the tuning, call in a pro to make it finally sound good.  
You'll find the top octave is hard to tune by ear, the out of tune overtones interfere with getting the fundamental right.  Pros use "stretch" up there, which is difficult to do by ear.  
Pedals take a beating in moves, just remove the kickboard and see if you can figure out what is wrong.  Cool old uprights have a middle pedal that pulls the dampers up on the left half strings, which is useful on some pieces.  But it is not an essential function, I know about two pieces where I can use it.  
I've played on uprights where a lot of the keytops were missing, and if you don't do glissando, it doesn't hurt.  Nowadays, though I think I would cut up some plastic sheet and glue it on if I owned one like that.  Many uprights, the leather "return home" strap breaks, and is easily replaced by a bit of polyester fabric.  Just poke the holes with an awl.  
Have fun.  

[ryankmfdm]

 I'm trying to upload this image, but the Internet isn't cooperating. At any rate, I've looked at the keys from the side, and there doesn't seem to be much sign of wear. Additionally, I don't see any grain pattern as quantum described. This means that they're in all likelihood plastic? Or wood? Would you still recommend using some Scrubbing Bubbles to clean the keyboard, then, indianajo?

 The pedals were simple enough to fix. As per your recommendation, I just removed the kickboard and noticed that two of the rods had been knocked out of place. The outside pedals are now working fine, and the middle one springs back up now, but I noticed there's nothing connecting to it to the dampers! Not a big deal, though. It doesn't sound as though it serves that crucial a function. Also cleaned up a little while I was down there--it was filthy.

 Anyway, as far as tuning it myself goes, if I can get started on the process myself, why rely on a pro to take the task to completion? I've got a vibration-sensing chromatic tuner for my guitar lying around here somewhere (https://www.amazon.com/Snark-Instrument-Clip-On-Chromatic-Tuner/dp/B003VWKPHC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393964703&sr=8-2&keywords=snark+tuner). Would that do the trick?

[iansinclair]

They do look a little more like plastic tops rather than ivory -- but that's a minor matter.  I use just a damp rag to clean my keys...

The chromatic tuner will get you started OK, and save you some money as you could get the thing close without that much cost.  As Indianajo said, get yourself a good tuning wrench.  A really good one.  Then be very sure that you are not pulling the pin sideways or up and down, as he said.  That's really important.  The other thing which is important, and which he mentioned, and where you will save money, is: do it in stages.  Don't even try to get it up to 440 on the first whack, unless it is very close already.  First thing I would do is go over it, and get all the unisons sounding together -- all two or three strings for the same note to the same pitch.  Then let it sit for a few days, but play it while it's sitting.  Then I would go ahead and bring all the octaves to the same pitch -- pick the sharpest one for each note to tune to, but check it with your tuner to be sure that that sharpest one isn't actually sharp (if it is, tune that set of octaves to the tuner).  Let it sit again for a while, playing it.  If it's as much as a half step flat at this point, bring it up a bit, trying to get it in tune with itself.  Then a bit more.  Then, finally, bring it to 440.  You can, if you want, use the tuner for that.  Then let it sit, playing it for a month or so -- and then have a tech. in to give it a nice tune.  He or she will, you will find, tune the higher notes very slightly sharp.  This is called "spread" tuning, and gives the piano more brilliance and better resonance -- but takes a very educated ear to do right.

[silverwoodpianos]

The key tops shown in the photo are ivory.

Depending upon who made the upright will depend upon how the pedal functions are set up.

Some have the middle pedal drive a muffler or muting bar.

Some have the left pedal throw the action forward.

Some have the middle pedal open the bass dampers only.

Some have the left pedal open the bass dampers.

If the middle pedal drives two horizontal bars inside, then the rest of the trapeze is missing along with the muting bar.

Stretch tunings can be completed aurally or by machine. Some ETD’s calculate stretch automatically.

[ryankmfdm]

The key tops shown in the photo are ivory.

For sure? How best to give them a thorough cleaning, then? You can kinda see in the photo, but they're pretty filthy . . . I think a little beyond being saved by a damp rag, ian. 

[silverwoodpianos]

When you look at the white keys the fat part your finger plays is beyond the black key. Where the fat part of the white key ends and the slim part begins between the two blacks, can you see a line across the top?

[indianajo]

I've used Family Dollar non-chlorine bathroom cleanser both on my Hammond organs, which have PVC keys, and the 1941 Steinway, which is not ivory.  That cleanser is now .00x% butoxy ethanol but before it was something else, the same stuff as in Scrubbing Bubbles I think.  
The Steinway has no grain to the tops, and they have some permanent black stains which is probably why the proffessional craiglist watcher that buys all the cheap Steinways wouldn't buy it.  The stains aren't coming off.  The only white plastics I am aware of in 1941 were bakelite and celluloid.  I'm not sure which these are.  
Thanks Ian for the organized gradual tuning routine.  The tuning fork wasn't much use in the beginning on the Steinway, just as a goal to work towards.  The Steinway hadn't been tuned in 44 years, I just evened  out the trebles to the bass strings which don't sag pitch as badly,  and brought it up to pitch gradually.  
What I actually did to get the top octave sounding right in all keys was tune it to the Hammond H100 organ.  People keep telling me the Hammond doesn't have stretch, but there is no frequency chart for the H100 and it was a $5000 organ sold extensively to churches that did piano-organ duets.   $5000 would get you a loaded Mustang Convertible in 1967.  
I won't be buying an imported tuner device, and there are no alternatives made in the Western Hemisphere.  Except the 1967 Hammond H100; the last one I bought for $50, or about  $.16 a pound.  

[hfmadopter]

For sure? How best to give them a thorough cleaning, then? You can kinda see in the photo, but they're pretty filthy . . . I think a little beyond being saved by a damp rag, ian. 

You could try glass cleaner with ammonia . On my plastic keys I use the Clorox brand wipes, come in a dispenser. When I get done teaching the kids at my digital piano I wipe it down with those since they are anti bacterial wipes as well. But the keys are not so much dirty as they are sticky or oily/smeared. The wipes leave them squeaky clean though.

Watch what types of solvents you get on the finish of the piano itself and or how long it soaks on the finish, a piano that age may be finished in shellac.

[silverwoodpianos]

For sure? How best to give them a thorough cleaning, then? You can kinda see in the photo, but they're pretty filthy . . . I think a little beyond being saved by a damp rag, ian.  

Genuine ivory can be cleaned with household products such as;

Toothpaste, not the gel kind, the other one.

White vinegar and water solution. Do not put vinegar directly onto the key set use a dampened rag.  
Brasso, brass cleaner, which has a small amount of peroxide and wax in the mix. Most likely Silvo would work too but I have never tried silver polish.

Cory’s key brite, sold by Cory products and found at supply houses. Some techs like myself sell small 12 ounce bottles to clients. Ask you regular technician or your local piano shop.

There are other stronger products that can be used to clean and whiten ivory but experience using those chemicals is required or the ivory wafer will dissolve.

 If there are black lines like the ones shown then the product is genuine ivory. Photos 18-22 in this photo album show genuine two- piece ivory. In several of the photos the line between head and tail is clearly shown. Also shown is the way that ivory gets dirty along the edges of the key top that are not in regular contact with the fingers.

Go back and forward in the photo album by using the arrows underneath each frame.

Here is the link;

https://plus.google.com/photos/107990527405079149600/albums/5679753204500052241/5679753357838911154?partnerid=gplp0&authkey=CO6Iid-e-OWPeg&pid=5679753357838911154&oid=107990527405079149600

[ryankmfdm]

 Dan, is this what you're talking about? If so, then no, the keyboard on my piano doesn't have anything like that.

[silverwoodpianos]

Yep. That is the tell tale black line for two piece ivory. Some ivory does not have the black line because it is one piece ivory.

One piece ivory must be identified by the grain lines like on this early Kawai K5

https://plus.google.com/photos/107990527405079149600/albums/5823449480132976721/5823449515865983010?partnerid=gplp0&authkey=CLOTnJOqmcXwDA&pid=5823449515865983010&oid=107990527405079149600

In any case the products mentioned in this thread are good for cleaning ivory or non ivory.

[ryankmfdm]

 So mine are definitely not ivory, then. Anyway, thanks for the help, everyone. I'm really looking forward to getting this baby playable again!