Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude

[faulty_damper]

This seems like a very strong statement, that doesn't match my experience in any field, musical or otherwise.
What evidence do you base it on?

What are you doing wrong that you still struggle with something after years of doing it?  What you're suggesting is that it should still be hard for an adult to walk straight.

[faulty_damper]

I do sound better

Then I encourage you to take an extended break, when you have the time, away from the piano.  Then after some time, get back to playing.  Only then will you know if your technique has degraded or not due to a faulty technique.

[awesom_o]

Then I encourage you to take an extended break, when you have the time, away from the piano.  Then after some time, get back to playing.  Only then will you know if your technique has degraded or not due to a faulty technique.

I did that already! I quit studying piano performance altogether, and took up golf instead.

I certainly agree it did me the power of good! But eventually, I returned to playing. Thankfully, my musicianship hadn't degraded whatsoever.

In fact, being in better touch with my body from practicing a sport every day really helped me reach a new level that I hadn't been able to get to when I was studying piano formally, and practicing so many hours each day!

[kevin69]

What are you doing wrong that you still struggle with something after years of doing it?

Who mentioned struggling? i didn't.
I don't struggle walking because i practice it every day.

If i keep doing regular exercise i can maintain a decent level of fitness.
If i stop exercising for a few months, my fitness level will go down.

Similarly, if i play piano regularly i will keep a level of technique.
If i stop playing for a few months, my level of technique will go down.

And if i play a piece regularly, i can keep playing it at a certain level,
but if i don't play it for months, i'll play it worse when i come back to it.

I don't beleive anyone can learn a piece to a high level and then return to it after 5 years of not playing it and expect to play it at the same level immediately.

[awesom_o]

I don't beleive anyone can learn a piece to a high level and then return to it after 5 years of not playing it and expect to play it at the same level immediately.

faulty_damper certainly can! But we'll just have his word for it, since he has made no videos or recordings whatsoever.

 

[gabeteoli]

I never said he sucked, however, I did suggest his technique was flawed as can be heard in his recordings.  As well, I don't need to prove my own superiority in order to make such statements.  If that were true, then the only people who can provide instruction are virtuosos.  Your teacher clearly isn't one and s/he doesn't have an understanding of technique.  Otherwise, they wouldn't let you play this study the way you actually are which is letting you do whatever you want with extrinsic constraints such as "slow practice" etc.

Now here's the rub that you will encounter that you'll probably regret later: you'll not be able to play this piece, or any other piece, unless you constantly practice it.  The moment you stop practicing, the skill, endurance, stamina, etc. you built up begins to degrade because it's unsustainable.  That's not good technique; that's bad technique.  Good technique is effortless and requires no practice once learned.  Even Awesom_o has to practice his Chopin studies to maintain them, am I right, Awesom_o?

Maybe if you would explain your secret technique people would listen to you. So far you have been quite vague...Also I never said you had to be a virtuoso to give advise. But if your technique is superior, then your playing should be as well...
And I'm not an expert by all means but that slow practice advise has helped me more then anything. Even Rachmaninoff practiced slowly...and you can't argue with his technique

[gabeteoli]

Hey awesom_o,
A random question for you...
I really like the Chopin etudes and when I have op 10 12 polished, I want to start learning another one. I really want to learn op 10 4 in c sharp minor. You've played them all, do you think at my level I could learn this etude?

Thanks

[awesom_o]

Hey awesom_o,
A random question for you...
I really like the Chopin etudes and when I have op 10 12 polished, I want to start learning another one. I really want to learn op 10 4 in c sharp minor. You've played them all, do you think at my level I could learn this etude?

Thanks

Of course! I learned 10/4 right after I had polished 10/12 and 10/3, when I was about 14.
In those days, my technique was pretty minimal, but I managed okay with them!

10/4 takes really good hand independence, so now would be a great time to take up study of juggling! 
 

[gabeteoli]

Thanks,
That's pretty impressive at 14! I'm pretty far behind where you were at my age...But maybe I can still catch up

[faulty_damper]

Maybe if you would explain your secret technique people would listen to you. So far you have been quite vague...Also I never said you had to be a virtuoso to give advise. But if your technique is superior, then your playing should be as well...
And I'm not an expert by all means but that slow practice advise has helped me more then anything. Even Rachmaninoff practiced slowly...and you can't argue with his technique

I've never kept my technique a secret.  I write very openly about it very often.  You see it in the technical solutions I suggest, as well as the accuracies of judging others' technique based on their descriptions of difficulties as well as just from listening to their recordings.

If you want to know awesom_o's technique, he does this thing where he presses too much into the keys.  He relies on the force of the fingers for dynamics which requires muscle building.  This is why his Chopin Op.10-1 RH is weak and why he pounds the bass octaves to create dynamics, to make up for the lack of it in the RH.

As well, I don't do slow practice unless it's to figure out coordination.  Once the coordination is figured out, I practice at a faster tempo using the actual technique that is used at speed.  And as for Rachmaninoff, he was part of the old Russian school and he, too, had severe deficiencies in technique.

[dima_76557]

If you want to know awesom_o's technique, he does this thing where he presses too much into the keys.  He relies on the force of the fingers for dynamics which requires muscle building.  This is why his Chopin Op.10-1 RH is weak and why he pounds the bass octaves to create dynamics, to make up for the lack of it in the RH.

Awesom_o's rendering of this etude was clearly an artistic decision and has nothing to do with any supposed technical deficiencies:
https://carlisleberesford.bandcamp.com/track/f-chopin-etude-no-1-in-c-major-op-10

And as for Rachmaninoff, he was part of the old Russian school and he, too, had severe deficiencies in technique.

The "Stupid_things_non-musicians_say_to_us" thread is in the "Miscellaneous" section of the forum.

[awesom_o]

And as for Rachmaninoff, he was part of the old Russian school and he, too, had severe deficiencies in technique.

So which pianist had the MOST deficient technique, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, or Gould?

[lelle]

So which pianist had the MOST deficient technique, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, or Gould?

Don't know 'bout them others, but Gould had problems for sure. I've read accounts of how he had trouble with joint pain and focal dystonia, and if that is true it's not unlikely that his problems were caused by his extremely hunched sitting position.

[awesom_o]

Don't know 'bout them others, but Gould had problems for sure.

Everybody has problems of one sort or another! 

Problems doing what?

Problems making really great recordings?

Problems making lots of money?

Problems making a profound and permanent impact on the world of music?

[kevin69]

And as for Rachmaninoff, he was part of the old Russian school and he, too, had severe deficiencies in technique.

In your opinion, are there any professional pianists (performing today) with very good technique?
If so, could you name five please?

[nyiregyhazi]

I've never kept my technique a secret.  I write very openly about it very often.  You see it in the technical solutions I suggest, as well as the accuracies of judging others' technique based on their descriptions of difficulties as well as just from listening to their recordings.

If you want to know awesom_o's technique, he does this thing where he presses too much into the keys.  He relies on the force of the fingers for dynamics which requires muscle building.  This is why his Chopin Op.10-1 RH is weak and why he pounds the bass octaves to create dynamics, to make up for the lack of it in the RH.

As well, I don't do slow practice unless it's to figure out coordination.  Once the coordination is figured out, I practice at a faster tempo using the actual technique that is used at speed.  And as for Rachmaninoff, he was part of the old Russian school and he, too, had severe deficiencies in technique.

? So, he uses his fingers too much and not enough arm. And that's supposed to be consistent with fast notes (that must be executed via finger action)  being too quiet and long notes (where the arm is free to provide force) being too loud. If he were too much about finger action and not enough about arm, his bass would be weak and his fast notes would be loud.

This is just embarrassing. Your diagnosis is squarely the opposite to what your analysis would actually have implied. It's looking increasingly improbable that you're the pianist you proclaim yourself to be. If you are, you're a savant- because your assessments are shockingly off the mark and of absolutely no assistance to anyone. If you think you can help people with technique, I suggest you try teaching first and discover your true levels of expertise at offering advice.

[lelle]

Everybody has problems of one sort or another! 

Problems doing what?

Problems making really great recordings?

Problems making lots of money?

Problems making a profound and permanent impact on the world of music?

Problems playing in a way that didn't cause him physical problems, like pain, numbness and major loss of control over the playing apparatus. Check this out https://www.handoc.com/Documents/GOULD_Tubiana20001.pdf

"Gould's unpublished diary details the second of two major physical crises that disrupted his playing, the first of which preceded his departure from the concert stage. The second crisis, which began 5 years before his death, strongly suggests he had developed focal limb dystonia."

"[...]he has been experiencing... a sense of fatigue, aching, and incoordination of the left arm and especially the left hand... particularly in his attempts to play the piano. He had also been aware of attacks of numbness and tingling affecting the 4th and 5th digits so that he was unable to coordinate these fingers in difficult technical pieces"

If Gould suffered so this many problems from playing I would say he had a deficient technique, musical results notwithstanding

[awesom_o]

If you want to know awesom_o's technique, he does this thing where he presses too much into the keys. 

This reveals how shockingly little about piano technique you really understand!
I never, ever 'press' into the keys. I played that way when I was much younger, and found the results in terms of sound-control and accuracy to be unsatisfactory.

I studied for several years with a teacher who taught me how to 'pull' the keys, and this had a tremendous impact on my playing, both in terms of  being able to tackle the virtuoso repertoire of the 19th and 20th centuries, AND being able to play the earlier repertoire of the 17th and 18th centuries with greater sophistication and refinement.

Now, 'pulling' and 'pressing' are very, very different motions.

Try to understand more before you post. 
It will make you more friends and fewer enemies!

[dima_76557]

Problems playing in a way that didn't cause him physical problems, like pain, numbness and major loss of control over the playing apparatus. Check this out https://www.handoc.com/Documents/GOULD_Tubiana20001.pdf

One should be very very careful with the conclusions in the linked document. The author clearly has an agenda when he blames Gould's technique. The truth is, however, that there is no one isolated cause of hand and limb dystonia. A variety of pathological conditions may lead to similar symptoms.

[lelle]

One should be very very careful with the conclusions in the linked document. The author clearly has an agenda when he blames Gould's technique. The truth is, however, that there is no one isolated cause of hand and limb dystonia. A variety of pathological conditions may lead to similar symptoms.

It's not so much the dystonia only, but the various other conditions that plagued his playing apparatus as well. Sitting the way he did is simply very unhealthy for the body, and if habitually use your body in an unhealthy way, you will get problems. So I don't think it is too unlikely his problems came from his body use.

[faulty_damper]

I studied for several years with a teacher who taught me how to 'pull' the keys, and this had a tremendous impact on my playing, both in terms of  being able to tackle the virtuoso repertoire of the 19th and 20th centuries, AND being able to play the earlier repertoire of the 17th and 18th centuries with greater sophistication and refinement.

Now, 'pulling' and 'pressing' are very, very different motions.

Describe this 'pulling' motion you do.  I can only think of two possibilities as to its execution.  One is Yundi Li's technique which makes his interpretation sound like Japanese anime music with inappropriate accents (I doubt this is what you refer to); the other seems like the fingers are crawling toward the fallboard.

[j_menz]

It's not so much the dystonia only, but the various other conditions that plagued his playing apparatus as well. Sitting the way he did is simply very unhealthy for the body, and if habitually use your body in an unhealthy way, you will get problems. So I don't think it is too unlikely his problems came from his body use.

And your medical degree is from where?   

[faulty_damper]

And your medical degree is from where?   

Probably from the same medical schools that taught that blood letting was the cure-all for most diseases, and drinking lead will cure stomach cancer.  Do you really believe doctors know very much when most of them became doctors for the money and prestige, and not to help sick people?

What do you call a med student who graduated at the bottom of the class?
Doctor.

Anyway, I have no doubt Gould's dystonia was caused by his manner of playing.  You can see that Fleisher also has deficiencies in his right hand when he was younger, which he didn't bother to correct after botox treatment.  Why he didn't develop it in his left hand also... just look at the videos and find out for your self.

[marik1]

And as for Rachmaninoff, he was part of the old Russian school and he, too, had severe deficiencies in technique.

Care to elaborate? Especially that "severe"...

[awesom_o]

Describe this 'pulling' motion you do.

What was that I heard you say?

"Teach me for free please, Mr Beresford"

Hurry up and audition already over in the Audition Room!

We're all so interested in hearing what you have to say musically, with your marvelous, faultless technique that is better than Rachmaninoff's, Horowitz's, and Gould's!

[lelle]

And your medical degree is from where?   

Lol. It is bloody common sense that if you sit like the hunchback of notre dame you need to have a lot of static contraction in your muscles to maintain that position. I would think it is common sense that having constantly tight muscles is unhealthy too. Do you think that you will NOT get problems if you use your body in an unhealthy way (i e with lots of tension)?

[j_menz]

Do you think that you will NOT get problems if you use your body in an unhealthy way?

Given my (non piano related) history of such, it would appear I do. 

[faulty_damper]

What was that I heard you say?

"Teach me for free please, Mr Beresford"

Oh, so that's the reason why your only reply is "slow practice".

Member: "I'm having trouble with with the ____________. Please help."
Awesom_o: "Slow practice. Without pedal."
 

[dima_76557]

Anyway, I have no doubt Gould's dystonia was caused by his manner of playing.  You can see that Fleisher also has deficiencies in his right hand when he was younger, which he didn't bother to correct after botox treatment.  Why he didn't develop it in his left hand also... just look at the videos and find out for your self.

You may want to read up first on what exactly focal dystonia is before drawing conclusions with the air of an "expert". It happens in all kinds of people, not only musicians, and it is NOT a problem of the periphery of the playing mechanism (forearms, hands and fingers), as opposed to, for example, carpal tunnel trouble, tendonitis, etc.

It's much like a SYSTEM breakdown in a computer operating system where the brain seems to be confused with an UNCLEAR IMAGE about what muscles to use for this or that task, so it exerts them all. This would suggest that focal dystonia happens mostly in people who:
1) were too "talented" to ever spend any time on getting the basics right;
2) work purely on reflexes without ensuring that the basics are maintained forever and in slow tempo to ensure and maintain QUALITY of movement.