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Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude (Read 7613 times)

Offline gabeteoli

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Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
« on: March 04, 2014, 03:38:25 PM »
Hi there,
I am 18 years old and have been playing piano for about 9 years. I am right now working on Chopin's Revolutionary Etude. I have most of it memorized and have it about 2/3rds up to speed.
I am going to be performing this in May, so I'm pretty much just looking for some tips from those of you who have played this and similar caliber songs.

First off, What is the best way to practice to gain more endurance? Like I said, I can play this 2/3rds speed fine, but when I try to play this up to speed, my left arm will start to tense up about halfway through it.
I play hannon everyday; are there any other exercises that I should be doing to help me with speed and endurance?

Any other practicing tips  for this song? Any advise would be appreciated

Thanks
Gabe

piano sheet music of Etude


Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 03:45:05 PM »
Practice it without pedal to develop endurance.

2/3rds up to speed is very good already if you can play it cleanly with good expression.

Don't worry about artificially increasing the speed! Keep practicing it at the the tempo you have achieved, and don't be afraid to go even slower much of the time.

Focus on feeling in control of the sound, while being as relaxed as possible in both arms.

You'll find it's difficult to have good control of the legato throughout. This is why it's really important to practice without pedal! That way, we can really develop fantastic clarity. It's important to play this Etude with good rhythm as well, and practicing it without pedal can help us in this regard also.

Good luck! Post a recording when you feel ready! 

Offline vansh

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 05:09:13 PM »
I'd say make sure you don't get tense! You should play it in a more relaxed fashion. What's likely happening is that you're tensing up because you're thinking about how you need to make it go faster. It's a natural impulse, but it's wrong. If you tense up, it's actually harder to play faster -- your muscles are trying to counteract any movement when you're tense.

My understanding is that this particular etude is indeed to train your endurance -- not endurance in the sense of making your muscles able to handle more repetitions, but endurance in the sense of playing without tension so that you can continually play the piece (ideally), because tension is wasted effort; the endurance comes from better management of your muscles rather than strengthening the muscles per se.

I'd recommend not worrying about speeding it up too much for a while, and instead get more familiar with the notes by playing it at a speed that you're comfortable with. This helps the hand to relax by being more familiar with the positions and notes that you need to play. There are also the "standard" tips for learning to play fast, such as rhythms (play one note fast, then one note slow; then play one note slow, then one note fast; then connect more notes, i.e. the 3 ways to do 2 fast 1 slow, etc.). The purpose is to ensure you don't tense up too much when playing.

Good luck!
Currently working on: Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody 2 (all advice welcome!), Chopin's Revolutionary Etude, Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 02:12:17 PM »
Thanks for the advise!

Are there any specific exercises that help with gaining more speed as well as helping me to be more relaxed while playing fast? Or is that just something that will improve the more i practice the song?

Also, Would you guys recommend me practicing the whole song over and over again slowly and then work up the speed, or would it be better to break it into sections?
I'm just trying to figure out the best and most efficient way of practicing this so I can get it to where it needs to be in the next few months
I'm spending about two hours a day just practicing this song.

Thanks
Gabe  

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 03:37:32 PM »
You would have to post a video of your progress on the piece for me to be able to give you any more specific advice about how to practice this.

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 06:35:04 PM »
Ok I will post a video later today.
Thanks alot for your help!

Gabe

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #6 on: March 07, 2014, 06:47:23 PM »
You're welcome. My advice would depend on what your strengths and weaknesses are, and what habits you have already developed based on those strengths and weaknesses.

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 03:00:55 AM »
Hi there,
Sorry I have been busy over the weekend and din't get a chance to post my recording.
So here it is. I can play it this speed pretty comfortably, although I CAN play this much faster, but like  I said I tend to get tensed on my forearm.
Please give me some feedback on this(I know, mostly deep criticism lol). Outline any weakness and strengths I have here and any advise on how I can practice this.
As far as speed is concerned, I am not really looking to make this a whole ton faster. Definitely faster but not like twice as fast. I think some of the quality in the music can be lost when this is played too fast. Well just my opinion...
AND, if your comments are something along the lines of, "Gabe I think that sucks and you should quit piano completely", although altogether painful, I would still appreciate them. It will simply motivate me to practice more :)

Gabe

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 04:05:46 AM »

Please give me some feedback on this(I know, mostly deep criticism lol). Outline any weakness and strengths I have here and any advise on how I can practice this.
As far as speed is concerned, I am not really looking to make this a whole ton faster. Definitely faster but not like twice as fast. I think some of the quality in the music can be lost when this is played too fast. Well just my opinion...
AND, if your comments are something along the lines of, "Gabe I think that sucks and you should quit piano completely", although altogether painful, I would still appreciate them. It will simply motivate me to practice more :)

Gabe

Hi Gabe,

I like many things that you have written above. I like that you CAN play it faster, but feel that the musical quality is better at a slightly slower tempo. You are correct. Obviously it can go a bit quicker eventually, but you are absolutely correct to not worry about this at your current stage.

Don't look to make it a ton faster. Look to play it instead with even better clarity, rhythm, and legato at the tempo you have chosen.

Pay attention to how you FEEL while playing it. "Relaxed" isn't the correct word for it.  Perhaps "well-coordinated" would be best words for describing how it should feel.

I'll give you some more specific advice later, with the score in front of me. You may have learned a few incorrect notes by mistake in a few places.

Well done!

Personally, I like to play this Etude a little bit slower than most people myself, as I feel it can sound more dramatic that way.


I would really like to hear you play this on a real acoustic piano!

Offline j_menz

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 04:10:33 AM »
Is it just me or did that cut out about 2/3rds of the way through?

You seem to be struggling. A lot.  It actually sounds better than I think it really is. And that would explain why your arms get tired when you go faster.

My advice, FWIW, is to slow it right down for a bit. A lot slower (50% or thereabouts). And play it all a lot softer.  Just concentrate on the movements of your arms and fingers. Mostly your fingers. And make sure each and every movement feels relaxed and easy. If it doesn't, move your arm or body until it does.  Don't attempt to speed up until you can do it at that pace without any feeling of strain or effort. Then increase speed (and volume again) slowly, making sure you retain that comfort.

I'm not suggesting you play the Godowsky study on this (yet   ;)), but if you download it from IMSLP you'll find at the start of it there are a number of shortish exercises. You might find those a useful adjunct study.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 02:57:08 PM »
HI there, thanks for the help!
Hi Gabe,

I like many things that you have written above. I like that you CAN play it faster, but feel that the musical quality is better at a slightly slower tempo. You are correct. Obviously it can go a bit quicker eventually, but you are absolutely correct to not worry about this at your current stage.

Don't look to make it a ton faster. Look to play it instead with even better clarity, rhythm, and legato at the tempo you have chosen.

Pay attention to how you FEEL while playing it. "Relaxed" isn't the correct word for it.  Perhaps "well-coordinated" would be best words for describing how it should feel.

I'll give you some more specific advice later, with the score in front of me. You may have learned a few incorrect notes by mistake in a few places.

Well done!

Personally, I like to play this Etude a little bit slower than most people myself, as I feel it can sound more dramatic that way.


I would really like to hear you play this on a real acoustic piano!

OK, would you suggest I practice this alot slower then I have in the recording?
Also, I did miss a few notes, I am aware of that. I  think it was due to me not practicing hardy at all over the weekend and rushing to get it recorded and posted here.
Also, I want to have this done in the next 2 months, would you say that is a realistic goal?
Alas, yes, I wish I had one :/ I only get to play an real piano when I'm at my friends house who has one...


Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 03:06:25 PM »
Is it just me or did that cut out about 2/3rds of the way through?

You seem to be struggling. A lot.  It actually sounds better than I think it really is. And that would explain why your arms get tired when you go faster.

My advice, FWIW, is to slow it right down for a bit. A lot slower (50% or thereabouts). And play it all a lot softer.  Just concentrate on the movements of your arms and fingers. Mostly your fingers. And make sure each and every movement feels relaxed and easy. If it doesn't, move your arm or body until it does.  Don't attempt to speed up until you can do it at that pace without any feeling of strain or effort. Then increase speed (and volume again) slowly, making sure you retain that comfort.

I'm not suggesting you play the Godowsky study on this (yet   ;)), but if you download it from IMSLP you'll find at the start of it there are a number of shortish exercises. You might find those a useful adjunct study.

Thanks,
I only know that part well enough to play it at a consistent speed.
I actually usually practice this slower then the recording. will try slowing it down, and working it more thoroughly.
Based on what you have heard, how long would you say it might take me to get this up to speed? Just wondering. Like I said in my last post i want to have this done in two months...

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 03:37:30 PM »
Try playing it through in a much slower tempo with the score in front of you. As J_menz says, about half this speed would be fine.

Use zero pedal. Follow along in the music with your eye as you play, and make sure you've got all the right notes, in both the RH and the LH.

I honestly couldn't tell whether you LEARNED wrong notes or just played a bunch by mistake.

This is why it is important to slow right down! Go so slowly that you CANNOT play a wrong note without immediately realizing the error.

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 04:02:21 PM »
OK thanks! I will do that.
I will post another recording in maybe two weeks for you guys to listen to.
I will also be able to play the whole piece completely by then
Thanks alot for the help!
Gabe

Offline aintmisbehavin

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #14 on: March 21, 2014, 10:27:53 PM »
If you haven't yet done it, stop what you're doing and get the Cortot edition of the etudes. He provides extensive, etude-specific finger studies that will help you overcome the difficulties in both the L and R hand. Cortot also provides very thoughtful commentary and insight regarding interpretation and performance.
P.s. A side note: It is my understanding that compositions (including those composed for the piano) without words are referred to as "pieces," as opposed to "songs" which have words. Good luck.

Offline ciernia1

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #15 on: March 22, 2014, 12:10:36 AM »
As a piano teacher told me years ago........whenever you hit a wrong note, you are playing too fast.  Slow down until you play it correctly and then speed up to the point you don't hit any wrong notes.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #16 on: March 22, 2014, 12:20:27 AM »
As a piano teacher told me years ago........whenever you hit a wrong note, you are playing too fast.  Slow down until you play it correctly and then speed up to the point you don't hit any wrong notes.

It's true!

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #17 on: March 22, 2014, 01:28:42 AM »
Assuming the DP was accurately able to reproduce the tone you intended, it sounds like you are using your fingers to play each and every note of the left hand.  Doing so is turning this piece into a finger study when it was not intended to be one, and makes it incredibly difficult to play at the correct tempo and make music.  You should be making large sweeping motions to play all the notes, not individual motions for each one.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #18 on: March 22, 2014, 03:40:44 AM »
Assuming the DP was accurately able to reproduce the tone you intended, it sounds like you are using your fingers to play each and every note of the left hand.  Doing so is turning this piece into a finger study when it was not intended to be one, and makes it incredibly difficult to play at the correct tempo and make music.  You should be making large sweeping motions to play all the notes, not individual motions for each one.

Large sweeping movements demand finger movement. It's too many individual arm movements (that are necessary when fingers don't actually move) that most easily interferes with this flow. When I was younger, all my problems in this etude were about insufficient finger movement. Which was exactly why my arm didn't move fluidly but instead in too many jerky movements with each separate note.

You're creating a false polarisation of variables. Implying that using the fingers is bad is highly misleading. The only way to move the arm smoothly is to move the fingers well with every key (so the arm doesn't need to descend to get every individual key down) . Smooth arm movements can't move notes in this kind of writing. They can only create freedom for fingers to move them. What you are referring to is not too much finger action but the problem of a stiffened or pressing arm. You're throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water by describing it like that. Anyone who tries to restrict finger movement is left with no choice but jerky arm shoves that will never be smooth or easy. Making it all about the arm is exactly what leaves someone with inadequate finger movement limited to jerks, rather than smooth and fluid arm drifts.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #19 on: March 22, 2014, 05:17:28 AM »
If you listen to the recording, you can very clearly hear that it is not insufficient movement of the fingers, but excess without sufficient use of other motions.  This is what I was referring to.  There's no doubt that the finger action alone is what is preventing the speed issue.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #20 on: March 22, 2014, 01:26:54 PM »
If you listen to the recording, you can very clearly hear that it is not insufficient movement of the fingers, but excess without sufficient use of other motions.  This is what I was referring to.  There's no doubt that the finger action alone is what is preventing the speed issue.

And reducing finger movements would automatically send the arm flowing along seamlessly? I hardly think so. Less finger movement equals more need for arm presses. That makes for jerky arm movement. Instead of making false polarisation, how about considering that finger movements are the basis upon which it becomes possible to add smooth and fluid lateral arm movements and suggesting arm motions are an addition (rather than replacement)? I cannot overstate how destructive it was to me in the years where I was taken in by explanations of arm replacing fingers, rather than of arm movements creating freedom for fingers to move. The more I was told to do it with the arm, the more I was encouraged to press and the worse the problems became. Arm cannot replace fingers. It can complement them. It's actually when you liberate fingers from arm pressure that a piece like this can flow, but the way you present your description would encourage less finger movement and more arm shoves. The most important arm movements are sideways ones that allow fingers to move keys freely- not ones that pile pressure on the fingers. Even when speaking of fluid arm movements, it only confuses unless it's clear to the student that the arm can only be fluid when fingers are moving the keys, rather than arm shoves.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #21 on: March 22, 2014, 01:32:44 PM »
Andrew, you ought to keep in mind that you are arguing with the fellow who thinks Horowitz, Yuja Wang, and Glenn Gould suck(ed).  :)

He thinks Horowitz had a crappy technique!

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 01:46:51 PM »



Offline pianoman53

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 03:31:29 PM »



Well, clearly he practiced this one. Thus, he doesn't have good technique.

The logic of faulty must be trusted, because he went through a lot... he says..

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #24 on: March 22, 2014, 05:56:42 PM »
And reducing finger movements would automatically send the arm flowing along seamlessly? I hardly think so. Less finger movement equals more need for arm presses. That makes for jerky arm movement. Instead of making false polarisation, how about considering that finger movements are the basis upon which it becomes possible to add smooth and fluid lateral arm movements and suggesting arm motions are an addition (rather than replacement)? I cannot overstate how destructive it was to me in the years where I was taken in by explanations of arm replacing fingers, rather than of arm movements creating freedom for fingers to move. The more I was told to do it with the arm, the more I was encouraged to press and the worse the problems became. Arm cannot replace fingers. It can complement them. It's actually when you liberate fingers from arm pressure that a piece like this can flow, but the way you present your description would encourage less finger movement and more arm shoves. The most important arm movements are sideways ones that allow fingers to move keys freely- not ones that pile pressure on the fingers. Even when speaking of fluid arm movements, it only confuses unless it's clear to the student that the arm can only be fluid when fingers are moving the keys, rather than arm shoves.

I never said anything about reducing finger movement = arm moves more.  As for everything else you state, just because you use more arm movement doesn't mean you need to press into the keybed more.

All I said is to use sweeping arm movements since that is huge part of the missing equation as you can clearly hear each note is depressed individually, not as groups.  This is an easy study if you use the right movements or it can be a hard one if played the wrong way.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #25 on: March 25, 2014, 10:19:57 AM »
I never said anything about reducing finger movement = arm moves more.  As for everything else you state, just because you use more arm movement doesn't mean you need to press into the keybed more.

All I said is to use sweeping arm movements since that is huge part of the missing equation as you can clearly hear each note is depressed individually, not as groups.  This is an easy study if you use the right movements or it can be a hard one if played the wrong way.

Not if you already know how to play no. The problem is that when you tell someone to stop doing it all from their fingers and use their arm more, the impression given is to move keys with the arm movements and less finger mivement. Only if you are very clear that fingers move keys and the arm creates freedoms for that, can it be understood properly.

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #26 on: April 03, 2014, 07:13:18 PM »
Thanks for all the input everyone!
As was advised me, I slowed this way down and played it in sections with each hand and hands together.
To my shock, I realized that I didn't know the notes nearly as well as I thought I would. I even found out that I had learned some notes wrong(Why can I almost hear "I told you so"?)
I feel so much more "In control" now, and can actually play this almost up to speed while staying relaxed. that tension in my forearm is practically a thing of the past :)
Of course i don't practice this up to speed yet. Right now, my practice speed for this is about 84 bpm, which is what my teacher advised. I can comfortably play this at about 115 - 130 bpm.
My goal is around 140 - 150 so with a month and a half left I am feeling quite confident I will have this down.
One thing i found helps is to play this through once or twice at a very very slow speed(like 60 bpm) and just making an effort to be as completely relaxed as possible. Once i have that "mental picture" of how it feels to play this relaxed, I pick up the tempo and it's amazing how relaxed and effortless it feels...I'm not sure if that really made sense but it seems to work :)

When i get a chance I will upload a video to youtube so that you guys can see my hand arm movements as well.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

Gabe




Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #27 on: April 04, 2014, 12:53:15 AM »
Here's a video of where I'm at right now on the etude.
It's not perfect but it's getting there...




Let me know what you think

Gabe

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #28 on: April 04, 2014, 12:59:33 AM »
You'll need to remove the 's' in https:

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #29 on: April 04, 2014, 09:53:41 AM »
Here, I removed it for you:


Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #30 on: April 04, 2014, 09:58:03 AM »
Assuming the DP was accurately able to reproduce the tone you intended, it sounds like you are using your fingers to play each and every note of the left hand.  Doing so is turning this piece into a finger study when it was not intended to be one, and makes it incredibly difficult to play at the correct tempo and make music. You should be making large sweeping motions to play all the notes, not individual motions for each one.


Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #31 on: April 04, 2014, 04:00:45 PM »
I appreciate the constructive criticism.
But I honestly don't really know what you are talking about. I know what it feels like to play with JUST  my fingers...and I definitely wasn't doing that. Maybe I'm wrong, but arnt you supposed to use your fingers to a degree? I think this piece would fall apart if i was to play this with JUST my arms.
Can you shed some light on what you were saying?

Thanks

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #32 on: April 04, 2014, 04:25:33 PM »
Gabe,

Don't be too concerned with what armchair critics have to say about your technique. It's very unlikely that faulty_damper can play this Etude  even half as well as you can.

Your technique is looking just fine!

Overall, the tempo is a little too slow, but it's certainly getting there!

I would like to hear more clarity of sound, more "electricity" in the tone itself, and less of the bigger, heavier, muddy sound I'm currently hearing.

Perhaps consider pedaling a bit more judiciously. I thought you were a little over-reliant on the pedal much of the time, and this caused the sound to be too murky for my taste.

Offline jeslevine

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #33 on: April 04, 2014, 07:38:27 PM »
The possible suggestions I would give is if you are concerned about endurance.  There are a few areas where the right hand parallels the left hand during the runs, measures 5-8, and measures 45-48.  Those places are ideal locations to relax the left hand, by putting less weighting in the left hand, and more weighting in the right hand when they are being played.

Also, there are other places, for example, in measure 55, where slightly lifting both hands to begin the  passage would allow relaxation of the wrists.

just my two cents.  All the best

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #34 on: April 04, 2014, 08:30:51 PM »
Gabe,

Don't be too concerned with what armchair critics have to say about your technique. It's very unlikely that faulty_damper can play this Etude  even half as well as you can.

Your technique is looking just fine!

Overall, the tempo is a little too slow, but it's certainly getting there!

I would like to hear more clarity of sound, more "electricity" in the tone itself, and less of the bigger, heavier, muddy sound I'm currently hearing.

Perhaps consider pedaling a bit more judiciously. I thought you were a little over-reliant on the pedal much of the time, and this caused the sound to be too murky for my taste.

It's funny how I was able to describe physically how he played just buy listening to a recording and also provided a specific technical solution, while the only thing you offered was slow practice and no pedal to "develop endurance."  Anyone who thinks that endurance is an issue has obvious technical limitations especially in this piece.

Since you're making this about me, I'll return the favor.  I've listened to some of your Chopin etude performances and I can tell just from the recordings that you have technical limitations.  I'd offer advice on how to solve them, but somehow, I'd rather just let you struggle. Good luck! :D

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #35 on: April 04, 2014, 08:32:57 PM »
Assuming the DP was accurately able to reproduce the tone you intended, it sounds like you are using your fingers to play each and every note of the left hand.  Doing so is turning this piece into a finger study when it was not intended to be one, and makes it incredibly difficult to play at the correct tempo and make music. You should be making large sweeping motions to play all the notes, not individual motions for each one.



Are you seriously repeating that to suggest that you were right all along? The video conclusively shows otherwise. You really must be joking.

There are good things there, but the connection between finger and arm is inconsistent. Try playing very slowly only mp and with a very melodic quality to every single note. With literally EVERY finger try to feel a simple sense of standing on the finger and connecting the arm-as if playing long cantabile melody notes in a nocturne. You need to imagine that the feeling AFTER each key goes down is 1000X more interesting than the act depressing it. It's the in between moments where your slight holes exist, not the instant of depression itself. From here, when you can stand more consistently on every step of the movement, you can also let go more and feel the sweep of forward movement- without getting held back by an inconsistent quality of connection in that split second that the key gets grounded. It's the slight inconsistency of contact when keys are depressed which introduces very slight hitches in the free flow of the arm. The arm cannot solve that, only a more consistent quality of finger connection to stabilise the arm.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #36 on: April 04, 2014, 08:37:26 PM »
Are you seriously repeating that to suggest that you were right all along? The video conclusively shows otherwise. You really must be joking.

I think you're watching a different video from the one he posted.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #37 on: April 04, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »
I think you're watching a different video from the one he posted.

Then describe the specific visual issues that are behind your analysis. The video shows that the arm is bobbing too often, as it falls down on slightly mistimed fingers. The finger doesn't always stand up in time for a totally seamless transfer. It has yet to finish moving enough to connect the arm sufficiently not to fall down.

Detail what you are seeing and give a precise rather than ridiculously vague and esoteric analysis of what you feel his arm is supposed to be doing differently.

You can start by explaining how a single sweeping movement can create tens of individual key depressions. Only a bulky lumpy arm movement can do that. Unless the fingers are the instigator of key movements and the arm is merely the organiser and aligner. You are merely giving a superficial description of an external issue in a finished product - not useful prescriptive advice about how to attain that external feature.

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #38 on: April 04, 2014, 08:57:27 PM »
 
Gabe,

Don't be too concerned with what armchair critics have to say about your technique. It's very unlikely that faulty_damper can play this Etude  even half as well as you can.

Your technique is looking just fine!

Overall, the tempo is a little too slow, but it's certainly getting there!

I would like to hear more clarity of sound, more "electricity" in the tone itself, and less of the bigger, heavier, muddy sound I'm currently hearing.

Perhaps consider pedaling a bit more judiciously. I thought you were a little over-reliant on the pedal much of the time, and this caused the sound to be too murky for my taste.

Thanks! I agree that i was using the pedal way too much there and it was mudding things up. I will try to let up a bit on the pedal and try to make this sound clearer overall

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #39 on: April 04, 2014, 09:54:28 PM »

Since you're making this about me, I'll return the favor.  I've listened to some of your Chopin etude performances and I can tell just from the recordings that you have technical limitations.  I'd offer advice on how to solve them, but somehow, I'd rather just let you struggle. Good luck! :D

Talk to me when you've recorded them all. So far, I've received nothing but compliments on my CD from friends and enemies alike ;)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #40 on: April 04, 2014, 10:50:08 PM »
They're probably just surprised you could hit two consecutive notes in the correct order. That's a great accomplishment, indeed! ;)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #41 on: April 04, 2014, 10:51:38 PM »

Thanks! I agree that i was using the pedal way too much there and it was mudding things up. I will try to let up a bit on the pedal and try to make this sound clearer overall


Your technique is flawed to begin with. Anyone who says that it's fine is not doing you any favors.  This is a VERY EASY STUDY IF YOU USE THE CORRECT TECHNIQUE.

Offline gabeteoli

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #42 on: April 04, 2014, 11:14:22 PM »
I haven't heard any of your recordings of the Chopin etudes yet. Don't tell me that awsome_o's technique sucks without proving your own superiority

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #43 on: April 04, 2014, 11:50:59 PM »
I haven't heard any of your recordings of the Chopin etudes yet. Don't tell me that awsome_o's technique sucks without proving your own superiority

Considering that faulty_damper has criticized Glenn Gould AND Vladimir Horowitz for their supposedly poor techniques, I consider myself to be in quite good company indeed!

 ;)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #44 on: April 05, 2014, 01:49:05 AM »
I haven't heard any of your recordings of the Chopin etudes yet. Don't tell me that awsome_o's technique sucks without proving your own superiority

I never said he sucked, however, I did suggest his technique was flawed as can be heard in his recordings.  As well, I don't need to prove my own superiority in order to make such statements.  If that were true, then the only people who can provide instruction are virtuosos.  Your teacher clearly isn't one and s/he doesn't have an understanding of technique.  Otherwise, they wouldn't let you play this study the way you actually are which is letting you do whatever you want with extrinsic constraints such as "slow practice" etc.

Now here's the rub that you will encounter that you'll probably regret later: you'll not be able to play this piece, or any other piece, unless you constantly practice it.  The moment you stop practicing, the skill, endurance, stamina, etc. you built up begins to degrade because it's unsustainable.  That's not good technique; that's bad technique.  Good technique is effortless and requires no practice once learned.  Even Awesom_o has to practice his Chopin studies to maintain them, am I right, Awesom_o?

Offline kevin69

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #45 on: April 05, 2014, 02:29:32 AM »
Good technique is effortless and requires no practice once learned. 

This seems like a very strong statement, that doesn't match my experience in any field, musical or otherwise.
What evidence do you base it on?

Offline theholygideons

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #46 on: April 05, 2014, 02:30:12 AM »
Now here's the rub that you will encounter that you'll probably regret later: you'll not be able to play this piece, or any other piece, unless you constantly practice it.  The moment you stop practicing, the skill, endurance, stamina, etc. you built up begins to degrade because it's unsustainable.  That's not good technique; that's bad technique.
That's actually one of the very few comments that you've made that actually bears truth. Before I would practise my pieces daily to ensure that what I had achieved the day before didn't fall apart the day after. Now, however, as long as it's in my memory, I don't give a damn about practicing, because I know the bulk of the technique is there.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #47 on: April 05, 2014, 02:32:30 AM »
Even Awesom_o has to practice his Chopin studies to maintain them, am I right, Awesom_o?

Not at all, in fact. I'm too busy playing ten of the Waltzes, the E minor Concerto, the 4 Ballades, the 2nd Sonata, the 3rd Sonata, the 4 Impromptus, the 3 Mazurkas from op. 69,  6 of the late Nocturnes, and the Cello Sonata (on the cello). Preparing for a certain upcoming Chopin competition, and must set a good example for all of my pupils!

Once you've mastered the 24 Etudes, they stick in your hands like glue!
Not that you'd know, as you seem too shy to post any of your playing whatsoever, despite the 'fact' you are the only pianist in the world without 'faulty' technique!

 ;)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #48 on: April 05, 2014, 02:36:35 AM »
Not at all, in fact. I'm too busy playing ten of the Waltzes, the E minor Concerto, the 4 Ballades, the 2nd Sonata, the 3rd Sonata, the 4 Impromptus, the 3 Mazurkas from op. 69,  6 of the late Nocturnes, and the Cello Sonata (on the cello). Preparing for a certain upcoming Chopin competition, and must set a good example for all of my pupils!

Once you've mastered the 24 Etudes, they stick in your hands like glue!
Not that you'd know, as you seem too shy to post any of your playing whatsoever, despite the 'fact' you are the only pianist in the world without 'faulty' technique!

 ;)


So why don't you sound better?

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Some advice needed for Chopin's Revolutionary Etude
«Reply #49 on: April 05, 2014, 02:37:52 AM »
I do sound better :)