Does "finger strength" exist?

[kevin69]

At the piano, you can use your fingers independently. I am saying you shouldn't not you can't move them independently.

Sorry, i find this incomprehensible.
How should you go from playing a 1-3-5 chord to a 1-2-5 chord without independently moving your second finger, your third finger, or both? I cannot find any hand shape that would let me do that.

[outin]

Can't help it, my piano (and my teacher's) just sounds way better when I use my fingers to play it...and so far they have not complained about doing some work either...

[nyiregyhazi]

The irony is that what is erroneously labelled excessively independent finger movement is actually a situations where a whole manner of arm muscles are excessively engaged in severe tensions. The problem is an excessive interdependence between finger movement and arm pressures and/or fixations. When you learn to free the fingers of these dependences by drifting the arm laterally, independent finger movements are nothing but a positive. It's when fingers are liberated of dependence on severe downforce and tensions from the arm that they can move healthily.

Unfortunately the clumsiness with which terminology is normally used actually gives the impression that piling on arm force to passive fingers is the answer, when that's what burdens and over works fingers the most. Healthy relationship between finger and arm depends on free movement of fingers, from an arm that is kept free of significant efforts.

[cometear]

Sorry, i find this incomprehensible.
How should you go from playing a 1-3-5 chord to a 1-2-5 chord without independently moving your second finger, your third finger, or both? I cannot find any hand shape that would let me do that.

You're saying making 3 to 2 legato while holding 1 and 5? What makes you think it is possible to play everything with a healthy and wholesome approach to it? I do not believe you can hold 1, 3, and 5, then go to 2 without tension. It's physically impossible.

[j_menz]

I do not believe you can hold 1, 3, and 5, then go to 2 without tension. It's physically impossible.

Seems pretty easy to me, assuming the chords involved are not weirded up to make the point.

I try and do one impossible thing a day, but I can't in all conscience count this as one.

[awesom_o]

It's physically impossible.

Perhaps for your underdeveloped hands, it is! 

[nyiregyhazi]

You're saying making 3 to 2 legato while holding 1 and 5? What makes you think it is possible to play everything with a healthy and wholesome approach to it? I do not believe you can hold 1, 3, and 5, then go to 2 without tension. It's physically impossible.

If you depend on arm weight, yes. If you generate movement in the fingers however, it's really quite easy once you've learned the basics.

[outin]

You're saying making 3 to 2 legato while holding 1 and 5? What makes you think it is possible to play everything with a healthy and wholesome approach to it? I do not believe you can hold 1, 3, and 5, then go to 2 without tension. It's physically impossible.

? Am I missing something? What is the difficulty in this?
It a bit more difficult to go from 3 to 4...

[cometear]

I actually will rescind my claim. I tried it, and it is indeed possible to connect it without tension. It just takes the right shape and so long as 1 and 5 are not stiff.

[kevin69]

? Am I missing something? What is the difficulty in this?
It a bit more difficult to go from 3 to 4...

The difficulty comes from the self-imposed restriction that independent finger movement is bad, and that you play the piano by moving the arm (including rotation), but not the fingers.

[gapoc459]

Perhaps for your underdeveloped hands, it is! 

This is the essence of my original question. What is an "underdeveloped hand"? And what physiological changes are experienced as the hand becomes more developed?

[awesom_o]

This is the essence of my original question. What is an "underdeveloped hand"? And what physiological changes are experienced as the hand becomes more developed?

An underdeveloped hand is a hand that is still musically weak!

It cannot play all major and minor scales with equal musical control and brilliance.

It cannot improvise freely. It cannot read music fluently.

It cannot operate well independently from the other hand.

Physiologically, it doesn't change that much, although I have experienced over the years a broadening and thickening of the palm.

It's more about how well connected to the brain it is, and what it can do in terms of skills.

Can you write and draw with both hands? Can you throw and catch with both hands?

Can both hands play the piano with equal musical and expressive capabilities?

[outin]

The difficulty comes from the self-imposed restriction that independent finger movement is bad, and that you play the piano by moving the arm (including rotation), but not the fingers.

This sounds really difficult to do. I think one has to be much more advanced than me to able to do that. I'm afraid my fingers would break 

[cometear]

You people are so rude. Can you not even be respectful of how I play the piano?

[nyiregyhazi]

You people are so rude. Can you not even be respectful of how I play the piano?

Frankly, no. Not when you preach how evil important actions are and then illustrate yourself to struggle with very basic things- as a direct result of having limited yourself in the way you insisted rest of us must too. If you want to just play your way, do it without preaching. If you want to preach, expect ridicule when it turns out that what you have preached isn't even helping you to maximise your capability, nevermind anyone else.

[awesom_o]

Can you not even be respectful of how I play the piano?

Not if you can't improvise or sightread your way out of a paper bag

[j_menz]

sightread your way out of a paper bag

Isn't it too dark in a paper bag to sightread? 

[outin]

Isn't it too dark in a paper bag to sightread? 

If you need to see the sheet to sight read, you have not practiced your scales enough!   

[outin]

If you want to just play your way, do it without preaching.

What would happen to the forums if people actually stopped preaching and taking themselves so seriously? Civilized conversations? How boring...

[j_menz]

If you need to see the sheet to sight read, you have not practiced your scales enough!   

Of the many things to be achieved by practicing scales that have been asserted, creating light in the darkness is not one with which I am familiar. 

[outin]

Of the many things to be achieved by practicing scales that have been asserted, creating light in the darkness is not one with which I am familiar. 

Didn't you hear, with good scale practice you can achieve anything!

[awesom_o]

I think it's pretty safe to say that finger strength DEFINITELY exists!  

[classicalnhiphop]

Just wondering, who here agrees that you should use arm weight and arm to play and who thinks that you should use only fingers?

[falala]

I think it's pretty safe to say that finger strength DEFINITELY exists!  

I'd love to see that dude play the One Note Samba. He'd probably break the piano.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just wondering, who here agrees that you should use arm weight and arm to play and who thinks that you should use only fingers?

That's an extremely loaded question. I don't believe you should use "only fingers" but neither do I believe you should be dependent on the arm for energy. It's there to support and stabilise fingers, in most playing, not to fall on fingers or push down.

[outin]

Just wondering, who here agrees that you should use arm weight and arm to play and who thinks that you should use only fingers?

You could have formulated the question better maybe?
Anyway, I think I must learn to use fingers more and arms less, which I have accomplished to some extent, but there's still a lot of work to do. If someone can create a beautiful tone and fluency without active fingers, I have no problem with it. I just cannot.

[cometear]

This is like trying to walk with your toes, it's not sensible.

[outin]

This is like trying to walk with your toes, it's not sensible.

Your comparison doesn not work that well. There's a slight difference in walking on solid ground and moving up to 10 small objects simultaneously with one's hands...

[j_menz]

This is like trying to walk with your toes, it's not sensible.

No, but it is Ballet.

Art was never meant to be "sensible".  

[hardy_practice]

Just wondering, who here agrees that you should use arm weight and arm to play and who thinks that you should use only fingers?

depends on the composer.  Pre-Chopin arm weight wasn't in use.  In fact they went out of their way to exclude it.

[shabbatshalom]

Dear fellow pianists,

Does it really inspire you to greater musical heights to bicker about muscles and rotations and anatomy? Why not just go to the piano, close your eyes, imagine a beautiful tone, and then play it? You're fingers have no individual brains to train. What is in your mind will come out through your fingers, I assure you. Are the keys on a piano really so hard to depress that they require strengthening of the fingers? Try it, play a note. If it's really that difficult, then by all means exercise those fingers. It won't be, though.

I promise you'll have more fun trying to make the most beautiful music rather than trying to figure out the most efficient motions.

[cometear]

Dear fellow pianists,

Does it really inspire you to greater musical heights to bicker about muscles and rotations and anatomy? Why not just go to the piano, close your eyes, imagine a beautiful tone, and then play it? You're fingers have no individual brains to train. What is in your mind will come out through your fingers, I assure you. Are the keys on a piano really so hard to depress that they require strengthening of the fingers? Try it, play a note. If it's really that difficult, then by all means exercise those fingers. It won't be, though.

I promise you'll have more fun trying to make the most beautiful music rather than trying to figure out the most efficient motions.

I love you.

[gyzzzmo]

Dear fellow pianists,

Does it really inspire you to greater musical heights to bicker about muscles and rotations and anatomy? Why not just go to the piano, close your eyes, imagine a beautiful tone, and then play it? You're fingers have no individual brains to train. What is in your mind will come out through your fingers, I assure you. Are the keys on a piano really so hard to depress that they require strengthening of the fingers? Try it, play a note. If it's really that difficult, then by all means exercise those fingers. It won't be, though.

I promise you'll have more fun trying to make the most beautiful music rather than trying to figure out the most efficient motions.

Partially true.

Ofcourse it is very important to just play and have fun doing it.
But it is also good to have at least some understanding on how the physiology of playing the piano works if you really want to advance. People without that understanding usually dont get further than the first page of chopin etude op 10/2

But yes, dont overdo the 'thinking', playing the piano still involves alot of playing.

[hardy_practice]

It's all very well looking down from the heights of Parnassus but if you don't know how you got there you're not much help to others are you?

[kevin69]

Why not just go to the piano, close your eyes, imagine a beautiful tone, and then play it?

Because I've tried this, and it doesn't work.
I've also tried imagining playing really fast, and i find that when i go to the piano i can't play as fast as i can imagine. If playing the piano was just about imagining playing well, then there wouldn't be much need for lessons or practice would there?

[anima55]

Because I've tried this, and it doesn't work.
I've also tried imagining playing really fast, and i find that when i go to the piano i can't play as fast as i can imagine. If playing the piano was just about imagining playing well, then there wouldn't be much need for lessons or practice would there?

It does work!  Listening to the sound you are producing and aiming for a beautiful sound goes a long way towards achieving it.

Playing fast, apart from obvious technical difficulties, is something which can be built up steadily over time using patience and persistence. 

[hardy_practice]

Persistence is where most people go wrong.  Persisting with bad habits ruins you - you want knowledge instead.

[anima55]

Persistence is where most people go wrong.  Persisting with bad habits ruins you - you want knowledge instead.

Lacking persistence is often where many students go wrong. There is often a feeling of 'if I can't do it right now then I'll never be able to do it'.  It takes stamina and perseverance to practise enough to build up speed.  I agree that persisting with bad habits is not worthwhile.  A combination of knowledge and perseverance must therefore be the answer.

[gyzzzmo]

I gues that the obvious must be the answer then

[hardy_practice]

Lacking persistence is often where many students go wrong. There is often a feeling of 'if I can't do it right now then I'll never be able to do it'. 

there's every chance you never will because you are more likely to be using poor technique unless your guidance is first rate.  Try, try, again doesn't work in music.

[kevin69]

It does work!  Listening to the sound you are producing and aiming for a beautiful sound goes a long way towards achieving it.

I totally agree that listening carefully is vital.
For me 'imagining' and 'aiming' aren't prescriptive enough: they don't help me know what to do when i don't get the sound i want.

The first problem with this approach is precision. If you play a single note, i won't be able to identify it reliably. From this, i know that i don't have a precise mental idea of what (for example) middle c sounds like. So any method based on imagining middle c won't work well for me. Since i can't even imagine the pitch of a single tone precisely, how am i going to imagine the full sound of a piano accurately? I can do substatially better with identifying intervals, but if you played two notes i would have no confidence with identifying a minor third vs. a major third and i find even identifying a third vs a fifth pretty difficult.

The second problem is as i mentioned above: knowing what to do when the sound isn't what i want. It might be that what i want isn't possible with a piano. It might be that i have the wrong technique. I could try raising my wrist, lowering my wrist, moving my arms more, moving them less, raising or lowering the stool height, 'pulling' the keys more, pressing the keys more or any number of other things. Just imagining the sound doesn't really help me work out what the problem is, or how to correct it.

In short, imagining a sound may work well for experts, but for novices i don't find it particularly helpful.

In other posts, i think you mentioned rebuilding your own technique from scratch in your late teens. Why did you need to do this if you could improve your tone by simply imagining the sound?

[anima55]

Hi Kevin

I think you have mixed me up with someone else here because there has never been a time when I have had to rebuild my technique.  I've worked on my technique and developed it perhaps, but have never had to rebuild it from scratch.

I didn't use the word 'imagine' in the posts I have written in this  thread.  I don't feel that imagination is the key to getting a good tone.  I can see what you say about trying to imagine a sound - not particularly easy to do.  What I advocate is 'listening' and experimenting with touch, dynamics, flow, etc.  In other words, I listen with a critical ear to the sound I have produced and if I don't like it, I try again, and again, and again...... until I achieve a sound I like.   Questions I might ask myself include: Did the music flow?  Did my right hand 'sing?  Was the passage smooth?  Was I in control of the music I was producing?


 

[kevin69]

Apologies Anima.
I've messed up the quoting and awesom_o said that not you.


+1 on the rest of your post

[shabbatshalom]

I promise I'm not on parnassus looking down. I've spent years trying different approaches, finger exercises, methods, etc. and nothing brought as much improvement as improving my creative listening skills. Of course, technical problems can't be solved solely with mental power, but the biggest danger to pianists is trying to find mechanical solutions to technical problems (Pischna, hanon, Taubman, or even Chopin etudes, if used mechanically). If you have an open mind to these things, try pianoeu.com, which, in spite of the poor english, has excellent and inspirational advice. My final two cents: feel leggiero no matter the dynamic and always feel each note as if it's going to one side or the other (using your arm as a "bow" of sorts). None of this is meant to be condescending. It just works and helps turn piano playing into music making.

[shabbatshalom]

One last thought regarding "thinking" about playing fast but not being able to: I think one must give each note artistic thought as part of a line regardless of the tempo goal. If you cannot give each note a thought, then you're playing too fast. It's a matter of training your thinking to be faster, not your fingers. Wiggle them. They're fast enough. Slow practice is for the brain.

[hardy_practice]

I promise I'm not on parnassus looking down. I've spent years trying different approaches, finger exercises, methods, etc. and nothing brought as much improvement as improving my creative listening skills. Of course, technical problems can't be solved solely with mental power, but the biggest danger to pianists is trying to find mechanical solutions to technical problems (Pischna, hanon, Taubman, or even Chopin etudes, if used mechanically). If you have an open mind to these things, try pianoeu.com, which, in spite of the poor english, has excellent and inspirational advice. My final two cents: feel leggiero no matter the dynamic and always feel each note as if it's going to one side or the other (using your arm as a "bow" of sorts). None of this is meant to be condescending. It just works and helps turn piano playing into music making.

Good post.  Yes, both approaches are required.  There's an old Bhuddist saying though - Once you've reached the other shore,  you need to jettison the boat.

[future_maestro]

If you think that the fingers "Can't" be strengthen at all, go to a physical therapist and ask him how many people he has helped regain strength in their hands/fingers.

The actual fingers THEMSELVES do not have any muscles in them, but the fingers are moved by muscles in the palm of the hand and forearm. These muscles, like any muscles, can be strengthened to a certain point.

Your fingers can and do become stronger. However there are some boundaries, for example:
The 4th and 5th fingers will never be as strong or independent as fingers 1, 2, and 3.
Schumann found this out when he tied his fourth finger to the ceiling while he slept. He was trying to increase the strength and mobility of it, but instead he ended up paralyzing it, rendering his fourth finger useless.

Beethoven and most composers of his time thought that the fingers could become of equal strength with the proper training. Later composers, like Chopin, realized that this could not be accomplished.
In a sense, Beethoven, Schumann, Czerny, et al. were trying to make their hands fit the music, while Chopin, Liszt, et al. made the music fit their hands,

Fun fact: Chopin based most of his Etudes around the index (2nd) finger.

[hardy_practice]

Fun fact: Chopin based most of his Etudes around the index (2nd) finger.

I would say around the fourth.

[future_maestro]

I would say around the fourth.

Nope, most were based off the 2nd finger, which has the perfect mix of strength and dexterity.

Etude 10 3 is an example

[hardy_practice]

You can't have success with Chopin without an unusually responsive fourth.  Why else would the greatest pianist in Europe complain about his 'unpracticed' fourth?