I need an advice about selecting the right instrument.

[ustun]

Hello,

I'm planning to buy a good piano and I just can't decide. I produce and perform music that has major piano parts in it. I have a Yamaha KX8 keyboard in my home studio with Genelec 8020 monitors - they sound good enough - and Galaxy Vintage D sample pack on my computer. Since I stared to play live with a grand piano on some venues, I realized that I'm lacking the real piano feel when practicing, I always felt uncomfortable when I play with a real piano so I decided to buy a new instrument and the choices in my head are these;

• First of all my family has a verry old and out of repair console piano being used as a decorative - an old Rönisch with some broken keys and stuff. Should I attend to move and repair it? It is out of the city so it will cost a lot. Would it worth it?
• I tried the Yamaha Clavinova and Arius series recently and I think they felt very nice so they are another option for me. Actually they both felt good for me so if I go digital, I'm planning to get a Arius. Do I miss something here?
• The midi keyboard Kawai VPC-1. I don't understand why this keyboard is this much expensive but the idea of getting rid of my old KX8 on live performances too is an exciting idea for me right now so I'd like to ask if there is someone using VPC-1 out there, is it comfortable to use this as a portable midi piano for live instances and does it worth of it's price?
• For the same price of VPC-1 I can buy a Perl River acoustic console. I do fear about everything that comes from China but pianos of this brand felt good to my hands and sound nice to my ears somehow. So this is the last option in my case.

I really need an experienced advice here.

Thanks!!

[indianajo]

In 2010 I bought a 1941 Steinway console that badly needed tuning, had bad veneer and some stained  keys.  In 2009 my Physician friend bought a new "superior" Pearl River console, 44" to look at it.  One string has broken on the Pearl River piano four times.  Because my friend is ex-military, has lived in three places, and does not keep paper receipts, the Houston Tx Pearl River dealer has refused to perform a service call on this piano under warrenty.  I'm still playing my 41 Steinway, which has a lovely tone and one sticky key I'll fix someday.  
I've never heard of the brand of console piano you said your relative owned.  The big question is, do any of the bass, two string, and three string treble string sets sound good?  Soft, medium, loud?  You may have to search to find three that are in tune with each other, or do a quick one note tuning, but the sound is key.  Other signs of quality are whether there are any bent wood parts, any glue joints separating in the middle action parts, any cracks in the sound board? Is the very soft performance even or raggeddy?  (Do all the notes strike very soft?).  Do the Dampers let off and damp evenly?  Are all the hammer felts even and not worn looking ?(not usually a problem on a home use piano).  
With great 1950-s 60-s console pianos going to the dump every day due to lack of dealer sale support, you should be able to find something better than a piano with mediocre sound and  stuck keys.  
I love the tone of  my 41 Steinway barring the one key,  and am very pleased with the tone of my 82 Sohmer piano also.  In the past I have been pleased with the tone of  US production Baldwins, (especially acrosonic 40" and a 193? grand at one church) Wurlitzer (pre 1990 sale ) Sohmer, Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, Kawai. I really have never heard a Yamaha smaller than a grand that I liked the bass sting sound.   In Europe the quality brands will be different.  Any old brand sold overseas after 1985? is IMHO a low quality piano sold to make the factory's house brand look good.    
Quality of microphone has a lot to do with recording a piano.  If you can't afford a pair of at least  AT 4050's or Shure SM87's, perhaps an electric piano with an aftermarket sound set would be more what you need.  Last December my Physician friends Yamaha 88 keyboard with the Steinway D sound set sounded really good through headphones, although the speakers he was using for sound were rather bass poor.  The feel was good enough for me to play PIctures at an Exhibition on it, although he had to pull the keyboard out of the case to keep me from banging on the wood rail he had installed behind the keys.  I'm a console player, not a grand player, so the Yamaha wasn't as heavy a touch as a real grand. 
To get decent piano sound at home, I use Peavey SP2-XT speakers behind a 120 w amp.  this is the first pair of speakers and amp that have ever sounded like a piano for me. I tried a pair of SP5 speakers at the store but there wasn't enough bass.  Listen for "sssh" sounds when the piano is struck hard (distortion), and on top octave solo piano listen for pitch instability, which is HF intermodulation distortion.  My best piano test source is a dynagroove LP, Peter Nero "Young and Warm and Wonderful" which is not precisely the best material in the world but is the best recording of a piano I own.  If you are using MP3 or cassette tape as a source, don't bother, it is all **** on piano to me.  CD or clean LP or 1/4 mag tape are the only media I have heard really good piano sound on, anywhere. 
Good luck.  

[hfmadopter]

The VPC-1 is a fairly new product and I think there is just one member here who some time ago reported buying one. Being a Kawai I would assume that the action is quite good even though it is just basically a midi controller. However , since you play through Galaxy anyway I think maybe a controller is what you want more than a digital piano. You would know better on that than I though. But too you might want to upgrade to some form or production software or software with more mixing capability than just piano. I'm not sure on that, I've just started looking at such things myself over this past winter.

I've played the Arius line of digital pianos and can't say that I'm much of a fan. I do prefer Kawai and Roland though. Many here have very much liked the Clavinova series digital pianos.

In terms of live recording of piano, most recording studios use Acoustic Grand pianos over 6ft long. Not to say it hasn't been done any other way but with the grand pianos they can live mic right over the strings and also around the piano. I'm sure it's been done with studio uprights as well.  What is important most of all with acoustic recording is mic placement and very consistent tunings and very good professional level tunings at that. If an acoustic piano is ever going to show it's slightest flaw in tuning it will be in a recording ! Good recording studios keep a professional tuner on as part of their weekly expense. I know of one where the tuner stops by a couple of times a week and touches up the piano constantly that way . This is much different than your average home tuning situation where it may get done twice annually ( and some here report only tuning every so many years but I seriously doubt they are doing production recording). I personally would go with what the pros do if to expect top results.

Some studios that produce music for movie tracks and such though, do go all digital platform. The proverbial one man band or orchestra with full effects. They use production software, mixers and sound modules and often synths. I won't pretend that I know anything about it really, I've just read about it.

It almost sounds as though you have two operations, at least, going on. You go out and play live with MIDI, you record and you also discovered that you like the feel of an acoustic piano. There is a forum on the web someplace that deals with piano recording or recording in general. I was just at it last night and I did not favorite the site nor did I join it. But all they discuss there is equipment for use in recording, including pianos. You might want to do a search for that. It's not a super formal forum though but they might be able to help you there since that is what the people do there. I was more looking for the aspect of producing music live ( mixed orchestral and piano off of my digital) than recording it.

[ustun]

I have one project with multiple components. I don't record piano sound - yet - in my home studio, I'm quite comfortable with my samples. And I do play live with midi since most of the venues does not have an acoustic piano here. And again, yes, I do discovered that the feel of an acoustic piano is great! The thing I'm after is, I want to practice on a keyboard with a better piano feel. After practicing with KX8, playing with a completely new experience, and it reduces my performance greatly..

After some research, I'm getting a bit closer to VPC-1. All of the comments that I read says that it has the feeling. Besides of its high price, the thing that sticks in my mind and disturbs is the weight of the instrument here. It is a big fat one with 65 lbs. Any comments or advices about carrying the VPC-1 around?

I'm not an expert about pianos but I think the sound of the Rönisch - https://www.roenisch-pianos.de/en/ - that my relatives has is very warm and nice to my ears. I don't think that there is a crack in the piano, it's just maintained as a furniture for years now. There are some keys that are not working and tuning of the instrument is, of course,  awful. In addition, there is a strange feeling about the keys.. I feel that the keys are a bit thin on this piano, after getting used to Yamaha, I always jump to the middle of the keys of the Rönisch. Is that possible? I did not played on this piano too much so I'm just not sure. Besides that, it'll cost around 1000$ just for transport. And I don't know what will it take to repair.

I don't have any experience with Peavey SP2-XT but the way, I'll try to try them on the stores here if I can find one.

I still have the digital - Arius or Clavinova, I'm not sure because of the difference in the price - or Pearl River options.. The Pearl River is the most far option for me since it'll be their basic model and will cost around 3500$.

Thanks!!

[hfmadopter]

You're going to be hard pressed to take the Pearl River on a gig and play through MIDI with it , just sayin.

Have you considered any of the good stage pianos that out these days ? They have many good sounds built in but also in some cases have MIDI through ports. In the case of some Kawai digital stage pianos you can play both and use it as a controller. I know the MP6 is like that but the improved MP7 I believe is as well. The sounds in the ES7 are great. There is a new MP11 coming out as well with terrific grand piano sounds built in. I would look long and hard at these if in your situation, unless you just want an acoustic piano at home, then that's a whole different matter again.

Most of the manufacturers of digital stage pianos have new models this year.

[ustun]

Actually, after some thinking, I just discarded all the acoustic and non-portable options from my mind, you are righ, I'll be hard pressed. I can perform with KX8, it's all right but while making an investment, a superior keyboard will kill two birds with one stone.

I perform electro-acoustic music so I always perform with a laptop and by this way I can use the same piano sound on my recordings - Vintage D - on performances too, which is a thing that I really like. Now, I have this dilemma. Would a digital stage piano like hfmadopter mentioned, for example a MP11 sounds better then sample libraries? I really love the Vintage D but again, before investing my money, I just want to think about all of the aspects.

Thanks for your patience!!

[indianajo]

My physician friend had some sort of 88 key Yamaha midi keyboard with the Steinway D sample running off a tower PC.  Through the headphones it sounded really good to me, but the speakers he was using was less than ideal.  He said just the sample was $200, it had double digits of velocity point samples to make the hammer hits sound different at different volumes.  I had no trouble with the Y keyboard, it felt okay and I'm used to plastic top keys having played on a 1949 Everett console for my first eight years.  
I might point out, the electronic piano sounds I hear on stage over in Louisville at the Palace theater, and the ones I hear at church through the PA, are pretty fakey.  People are getting used to that sound, but I'm not. 
If you get down to the Peavey Dealer to look at the SP2 PA speakers, take your own piano CD.  Peavey caters to bar bands and stadiums, and the dealer  probably won't have any CD in the store with a live piano recording made with Neumann mikes or anything.  The SP2s were redesigned in 2011 to be lighter, and the new ones sound fine to me also.  they are two way horn speakers and sound best about 10' away mounted above your head on stands.  If your listening room is smaller than 10x14x8 the sound of the Peaveys might not gel.  Don't listen too loud even though the salesman is a rocker and has no ears left, I use mine at 1 watt, even though they will also produce 300 watts.  The 1 watt distortion is so low Peavey charts it on the datasheet.  Nobody else that I have found has the ****s to specify distortion or the QA program to guarentee it.   
The best sounding piano CD's I own are Peter Nero Young & Warm & Wonderful which has some solo top octave Steinway, and George Winston's December which has a solo Bosendorfer.  Listen for IM distortion on top octave, most speakers and amps fail this test.  IM distortion sounds like "sssshh" and or a fast vibrato, which pianos obviously don't have.  
Make sure the demo amp has plenty of power, I found a peavey  CS600 amp at the store to sound fine. I use a 120 watt amp in my house but I redesigned the amp to sound better than delivered, and it will pump out 100 watts/channel for a few milliseconds which is enough for the strike of a piano hammer.  Piano is about the hardest thing for speakers to do.  
Have fun shopping.

[hfmadopter]

Actually, after some thinking, I just discarded all the acoustic and non-portable options from my mind, you are righ, I'll be hard pressed. I can perform with KX8, it's all right but while making an investment, a superior keyboard will kill two birds with one stone.

I perform electro-acoustic music so I always perform with a laptop and by this way I can use the same piano sound on my recordings - Vintage D - on performances too, which is a thing that I really like. Now, I have this dilemma. Would a digital stage piano like hfmadopter mentioned, for example a MP11 sounds better then sample libraries? I really love the Vintage D but again, before investing my money, I just want to think about all of the aspects.

Thanks for your patience!!

You should still be able to play your Steinway D through the MP11. The option is you may not always want to or need to, pluse there are so many other sounds on board. Just saying that if you lug around something the size and weight of a controller like the Kawai, maybe you would like a stage piano. With the controller you also can add more libraries though through MIDI, even modules if hardware is your thing.

Are you playing through the location sound systems or are you providing that as well ?

[ustun]

I use location sound systems. In my setup I have a keyboard controller, a laptop, audio interface and midi controllers. I like the flexibility of the sampled piano variety actually, I'm not sure which one is more advanced on tone though, built in hardware sounds or sample libraries. Between the VPC-1 and MP10 - 11, there is a big price difference and I'm a bit afraid of the possibility of using the stage piano as a midi controller alone

[hfmadopter]

Well you seem to know what you want then. I just threw in the idea of the stage piano if you wanted the extra versatility. Midi is great and you have the libraries so that's good.

[ustun]

Yes, looks like midi will be suitable for me. actually i love the plain surface of the vpc-1 either. looks minimalistic and great!

now, since I'll go MIDI, there is another information that I need. I have a small room for my setup and my confugiration is 'L' shaped. on the longer side I have my monitors and computer stuff and on the shorter side I have my keyboard so sound comes from my left when I play. I really get tired of moving monitors around and I want a decent priced monitors for just piano sound. Do you have any recommendations about this? I checked out the Peaveys but they are too large for my flat. I need something more compact.

There is a studio bundle of VPC-1 in Kraft Music - https://www.kraftmusic.com/kawai-vpc1-virtual-piano-controller-complete-studio-bundle.html - that has a pair of Yamaha HS5 5" in it. Anybody out there using these monitors? The price is quite good there actually.

Thanks for all your replies and comments. They helped greatly to clear my head!

[hfmadopter]

Yes, looks like midi will be suitable for me. actually i love the plain surface of the vpc-1 either. looks minimalistic and great!

now, since I'll go MIDI, there is another information that I need. I have a small room for my setup and my confugiration is 'L' shaped. on the longer side I have my monitors and computer stuff and on the shorter side I have my keyboard so sound comes from my left when I play. I really get tired of moving monitors around and I want a decent priced monitors for just piano sound. Do you have any recommendations about this? I checked out the Peaveys but they are too large for my flat. I need something more compact.

Thanks for all your replies and comments. They helped greatly to clear my head!

Think of the main monitors in pairs and include a sub is my suggestion. I use an M-audio SBX10 sub, which is live or active sub, so wire to it and divide out from there. I suggest two monitors with 8" main speaker. I'm using 5" and they sound great if not pushed. They are thin sounding in certain ranges of the piano at times though. I've done a lot of reading and piano needs the size of the larger monitors. M-audio just released their new M3-8, which  are three way monitors. I'd love to try a pair. The lowly CM30 is a decent speaker from Roland. Many people like that speaker in a house studio or even as stage reference monitors. Again think of those options in pairs, never single, except the sub. I just mention the M-audio line because its what I have. It could be that the M3-8 may fill the bass enough to not need the sub.

[ustun]

The M3-8 is looking great but they are a bit expensive for me, 364$ for each. Actually I can buy 2 more of Genelec 8020 to the same price - I haven't used any M-Audio before but I read that Genelec monitors are superior -. But, you say the size matters about piano, and the BX8 D2 is in my price range, 432$ for both. Actually I'll use these only when I play piano so, after learning that I'll need size from you, it will be logical to buy BX8s instead of small sized superior brands I guess.

If I try hard I can afford M3-8s but since I'm not looking for a monitor for mixing, the price difference would be a bit inessential I think.

Roland CM-30 is 345$ each and I have in-ear monitor setup so I don't need any stage monitors right now. So, because of they are lacking the size, I'm passing them.

A sub is something I really need but I just don't have the budget right now so it'll wait. Fortunately my audio interface has plenty of outputs so I can feed my monitors with it.

So, you use BX5s right? Looks like I'll go with a pair of BX8 D2s.

[hfmadopter]

The M3-8 is looking great but they are a bit expensive for me, 364$ for each. Actually I can buy 2 more of Genelec 8020 to the same price - I haven't used any M-Audio before but I read that Genelec monitors are superior -. But, you say the size matters about piano, and the BX8 D2 is in my price range, 432$ for both. Actually I'll use these only when I play piano so, after learning that I'll need size from you, it will be logical to buy BX8s instead of small sized superior brands I guess.

If I try hard I can afford M3-8s but since I'm not looking for a monitor for mixing, the price difference would be a bit inessential I think.

Roland CM-30 is 345$ each and I have in-ear monitor setup so I don't need any stage monitors right now. So, because of they are lacking the size, I'm passing them.

A sub is something I really need but I just don't have the budget right now so it'll wait. Fortunately my audio interface has plenty of outputs so I can feed my monitors with it.

So, you use BX5s right? Looks like I'll go with a pair of BX8 D2s.

Yes BX5's, they are good but a bit bright and they need that sub. Concert grand can clock your ears but mellow grand and some tone correction helps, Mellow Grand 2 even better but too warm for my taste ( my piano has four channel tone and four channel EQ adjustments, so no tone on the thing is locked ). The BX5's work don't get me wrong about that but you can do better. Anyway, way richer with the sub set to reduce the load on these little monitors with cross over set at around 150 hz. ( depends on the piano sound used, I might go to 120 or up to 180). The sub makes a huge, huge difference though and even more difference if lacing in instruments with the piano. I found this sub used with a warranty for really dirt cheap, had to try it. BX5's are not sufficient without the sub.

Have a look at the KRK Rokit 6 and 8" active monitors over the BX8s for home use I think ( those BX8's are powerful). The 6 is substantial. Try not to go down to 5". That's another one I'd like to try though, the Rokit's if I ever get my hands on them. If possible try before you buy. Not that it helps a whole lot because who knows how they are set up at the store ! Buy from a place where you can return them or exchange them. The G3 Rokit 6 looks like a winner. And the KRK line of monitors put their relieve port to the front vs the rear ( there are augments in both directions on that of course).

[indianajo]

If your main speakers have 15" drivers, and are properly engineered you don't need any cheesy sub to do piano.  How are you going to get the sub to time alighn?  Do a bass drum hit, does your monitor plus sub go "thock" or "boig"? If your monitor plus sub can do bass drum hits and rim shots right, you're a great sound engineer.  I use ZZtop Afterburner as a source for the bass drum hits, the Woke up with Wood track.  Peavey specifies their time alignment on the SP2 datasheet, the Afterburner track just confirmed the time alignment specification was real when I tried them out.  
I paid about $600 for two SP2-XT speakers, plus about $30 for two stands to hold them up over the organ at the end of the room.  They are out from the wall a little for better bass response. My 60 w/ch amp will put out 40 v transients,  so on a average 1 Vpp sound level I've got 53 db of headroom for piano hammer hits. The 400 w/ch amp will put out even more voltage on attacks.  
Subs are for earthquake effects in movies, IMHO.  Or 32' pedal in organ, which I didn't even know what it sounded like until I visited St Boniface in Louisville and heard their pipe organ.  I'm not even sure I like 32' notes, they are surely not essential if the organist doubles the 32' bass line with a 16' stop.  

[hfmadopter]

If your main speakers have 15" drivers, and are properly engineered you don't need any cheesy sub to do piano.  How are you going to get the sub to time alighn?  Do a bass drum hit, does your monitor plus sub go "thock" or "boig"? If your monitor plus sub can do bass drum hits and rim shots right, you're a great sound engineer.  I use ZZtop Afterburner as a source for the bass drum hits, the Woke up with Wood track.  Peavey specifies their time alignment on the SP2 datasheet, the Afterburner track just confirmed the time alignment specification was real when I tried them out.  
I paid about $600 for two SP2-XT speakers, plus about $30 for two stands to hold them up over the organ at the end of the room.  They are out from the wall a little for better bass response. My 60 w/ch amp will put out 40 v transients,  so on a average 1 Vpp sound level I've got 53 db of headroom for piano hammer hits. The 400 w/ch amp will put out even more voltage on attacks.  
Subs are for earthquake effects in movies, IMHO.  Or 32' pedal in organ, which I didn't even know what it sounded like until I visited St Boniface in Louisville and heard their pipe organ.  I'm not even sure I like 32' notes, they are surely not essential if the organist doubles the 32' bass line with a 16' stop.  

May be so, you don't need a 300Watt 15 inch speakers to sound out good drum hits in a room 13x20 and you want one a little larger than 5 inches to register good piano sound in the mid to lower ranges of the keyboard. The small speaker in the bass is weak, the sub picks it up. For good overall piano, full spectrum from deep bass to top treble you really want a three way system. You can get that in a pair of three way speakers or split it over three components. The sub turned up just enough to cause slight vibration near the speaker is about right for a good sized grand piano feel ( my grand does that to me in the mid to deeper bass). It frees up the smaller speakers to register correctly in the range they can handle well, crossover is handled within the subs structure that's why earlier I mentioned that I wire through the sub. The sub is engineered to pass the higher frequencies on to the speakers that can handle it much as a three way set of speakers would do. I really believe the Maudio M3-8 is going to be a great piano set. In piano you need a set of speakers at least. IMO, no single two way speaker will ever do it accurately. The sub is used in a relatively low volume setting and the transition is set by the cross over dial to your liking from 55hz to 200hz.

I am not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination , I'll let those who know numbers handle the numbers in db ohms hz etc.. I am 100% confident though that you can get good piano sound without blowing your ear drums out and that the Peavey 15" speaker is not the one and only speaker that you must use in a small home studio.. Most people today are not using passive speakers in home studios anyway.

[ustun]

I've just ordered my VPC-1!! I'll write a review about it when I get it.

Looks like this monitor shopping will be more costly then I thought. Rokits are a bit more expensive then M-Audio's. I just can't afford to M3-8 unfortunately, thats for sure. And for the price difference between BX8 and M3-8 - around 450$ if I remember right - I can buy a sub to my system later and probably get a better overall sound then M3-8s with that way.

And Rokit 8's are out of my price range either but I can afford to second hand Rokit 6's which is still more expensive then new BX8's.

I'm just thinking loud. I'd like to hear your opinions about these actually.

And, since I'm not planning to mix with these, what do u think about hi-fi systems? There are some of 90's hi-fi passive speaker systems with external amplifiers that are dirt cheap on second hand market and HUGE in size like these below;

[indianajo]

Consumers love to count the drivers on the speaker to determine their worth.  The furniture rental two years ago had a pair of 5 way speakers demonstrating out on the sidewalk on FM radio.  The sound was awful, considering they were using the pop station that doesn't even transmit unmodified human voice anymore.  Not all 4 way systems will be awful, just most.  Take some demonstrator CD's and take a listen, you might find good sound at a bargain. 
JBL has a consumer division, and a professional division.  The consumer division specifies frequency response with +- 10 db tolerance.  The pro division doesn't say, but +- 3 db is more usual.  Peavey actually specifies +- 3 db on their datasheets.  Then there is Radio Shack.  I bought a set of headphones from them once, they were +- 3 db 20-20000 hz.  Then in fine print at the bottom, the production tolerance was +-20 db.  Usually RS doesn't mention the production tolerance, that was a mistake.  I have to say Radio Shack speakers always sounded awful in the store.  
I'm suggesting one listen to any proposed speaker system with 1. a great piano recording including all the keys and 2.  A bass drum hit to determine time alignment.  Lots of money was spent on Klipshhorns over the decades, but when I heard them demonstrating in the store they were using light jazz as a demonstrator- trumpet, sax, string bass.  None of these instruments is hard to reproduce.  The dirty secret was that the time alignment of Klipshhorns was terrible.
So, pick up a $2 used copy of the Afterburner CD and tell me, how great are your monitors + subwoofer for time alignment?  MP3 versions of the track don't count IMHO, they don't have the dynamic range of a CD or even that of an LP. "Booig"  is not a bass drum hit.  And listen to the difference between a great piano recording on headphones, versus the sound in your room.  The headphone is easy to do right, the driver is pumping 2 cc of air an an enclosed space.  The room is much harder there of thousands of cubic feet of air to move, plus reflections and dimensional sound filters.  Both should sound like an actual piano in the same space.  I have a piano installed between my speakers, which provides a built in sound calibrator.   
The Peavey SP2, and the JBL 215, are copies of the Bell Labs inspired Altec Lansing Voice of the Theatre two way speaker. I heard the originals in a theater in 1967 at the suggestion of my band director, and have wanted some ever since.  VOT have never gone used for under $700 each, and draw that much now for used units with a non-functioning driver.  So think twice before you denegrate the well-engineered two way design.  Take a piano CD, and a bass drum CD, and test some speakers and see what you think of them. And remember the store dimensions, and your room dimensions are quite different.  The biggest vendors of speakers now in my market are huge warehouse stores (best buy), where there are no walls, ceiling, or carpeted or stuffed surfaces to modified the sound.  Just a bunch of stupid metal shelves.  Bankrupt Circuit City built special five sided rooms with hard walls to demonstrate their high volume, vile sounding, car systems in. 
One thing that is sorely lacking on most reproductions of piano is the ping that occurs when the hammer hits.  This takes a lot of power, and most systems don't have it. People have gotten used to the electronic version of piano over the years, and I can't believe people take youtube seriously on pianostreet.  I just listened to the Horowitz in Moscow  youtube performance on headphones.  This computer can sound rather good playing a CD into headphones.  The youtube performance had all the frequencies, and didn't have vile intermodulation distortion, but the power of the piano hammer was not there. It was all homogenized.  
While my PA speakers have the heatsinks to play mono-volume technorock at 300 w all day and all night, I don't use them that way.  I use them at about 1.5 Vpp base level into 8 ohms, or about 1/4 watt.  This leaves plenty of headroom for piano hammer or cymbal or bell percussion before clipping cuts the tops off the waveforms and causes distortions.  
Besides the JBL 215, the Altec Lansing VOT, the Peavey SP2, another well respected 2 way driver plus horn design is the La Scala.  On the used market, because of the continual breakup of bar bands, particularly after smoking in bars was banned, the SP2 is the cheapest around here.

[hfmadopter]

I've just ordered my VPC-1!! I'll write a review about it when I get it.

Looks like this monitor shopping will be more costly then I thought. Rokits are a bit more expensive then M-Audio's. I just can't afford to M3-8 unfortunately, thats for sure. And for the price difference between BX8 and M3-8 - around 450$ if I remember right - I can buy a sub to my system later and probably get a better overall sound then M3-8s with that way.

And Rokit 8's are out of my price range either but I can afford to second hand Rokit 6's which is still more expensive then new BX8's.

I'm just thinking loud. I'd like to hear your opinions about these actually.

And, since I'm not planning to mix with these, what do u think about hi-fi systems? There are some of 90's hi-fi passive speaker systems with external amplifiers that are dirt cheap on second hand market and HUGE in size like these below;

I had a pretty lengthy talk with a sound guy at Musicians Friend which is a very good store and where I bought my MP6 from. He was saying that the mids are quite smooth and the highs not as harsh on the BX8 than the BX5 and of course they offer more bass with the 8" driver. Also their range is decent so still good turned down ( I've used power amps that won't turn down, the sound turns to mud, very important !). Anyway, more to the point if you are interested in BX8's anyway if you you buy individual from Musicians Friend right now they have them on sale. It comes out $100 cheaper than buying the set of them ( they come both ways). yesterday they also had some used ones, I don't know if they are still there or not. Here is a link and congrats on your purchase incidentally ! : https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/m-audio-bx8-d2-studio-monitor-each

[bronnestam]

I've just ordered my VPC-1!! I'll write a review about it when I get it.

I will be thrilled to read your review, because I'm also seriously considering buying one.

I already have a Yamaha Clavinova (digital grand) but now it looks like the family will get a second home due to my children's education, and of course I need a piano there as well. Pure acoustic is out of the question again, but recently I visited a Yamaha showroom and tried different pianos out - Arius, Silent, the acoustic grands ... the latter were like a trip to 7th heaven but ... unfortunately ... it is not possible right now. I had never tried an acoustic Yamaha grand before, but it certainly confirmed that this is the piano of my dreams. 

I was only modestly impressed by the hybrid pianos, though. My own digital baby grand was there as well, and yeah, it is doing remarkable well if you compare and also consider the price level.

As I also own Pianoteq Stage, my idea was to buy a fairly cheap digital and combine it with the virtual piano, which I think is terrific. I don't care about loudspeakers anyway, as I will play almost entirely using headphones. Then I heard about the VPC1 and I thought it seemed like a perfect solution for me. I see the "heaviness" as pure advantage as I just hate those lightweight keyboards that start to tremble and jump as soon as you play something louder than pianisssimo ... I think the piano feeling is more authentic with a heavier instrument, but as I have the software I really don't need anything else than a set of keys with good quality and feeling. If the feeling is good - I expect at least the quality of my present Clavinova - then I think the price is fairly decent.

But if I want to test play the VPC1 I obviously have to travel half across the country and make an appointment with this showroom, and I hope you can give me a review that spares me that trip. The reviews I have seen so far have been promising, but I still look for focus on the action and feeling of the controller itself, not the cost and choice of software and surround equipment ...     

[ustun]

I searched both the distributors and the second hand market here so here are the options - Musicians Friend does not have a store here unfortunately - ;

• A pair of Rokit 6 G2, in well condition; 716$
• A pair of Rokit 8 G1, in well condition; 670$
• A pair of M-Audio BX8 D2, in well condition, 425$
• A pair of M-Audio BX8 D2, new, 584$
• A pair of M-Audio M3-8, new, 1000$ - ouch
• A pair of Technics Hi-Fi system from 90's. 120 cm x 35 cm HUGE passive speakers with an amp, looks very well used, 200$

Unfortunately we don't have a store to compare these monitors so, again, I need comments. I just cannot go to new Rokits since they are out of my price range. I don't want to get over 700$ a lot.

Pff.. I just cannot choose. It's really difficult to buy something like this before trying. I've heard BX8's in a friends studio though and they sounded quite good to my ears.

I will be thrilled to read your review, because I'm also seriously considering buying one.

I already have a Yamaha Clavinova (digital grand) but now it looks like the family will get a second home due to my children's education, and of course I need a piano there as well. Pure acoustic is out of the question again, but recently I visited a Yamaha showroom and tried different pianos out - Arius, Silent, the acoustic grands ... the latter were like a trip to 7th heaven but ... unfortunately ... it is not possible right now. I had never tried an acoustic Yamaha grand before, but it certainly confirmed that this is the piano of my dreams. 

I was only modestly impressed by the hybrid pianos, though. My own digital baby grand was there as well, and yeah, it is doing remarkable well if you compare and also consider the price level.

As I also own Pianoteq Stage, my idea was to buy a fairly cheap digital and combine it with the virtual piano, which I think is terrific. I don't care about loudspeakers anyway, as I will play almost entirely using headphones. Then I heard about the VPC1 and I thought it seemed like a perfect solution for me. I see the "heaviness" as pure advantage as I just hate those lightweight keyboards that start to tremble and jump as soon as you play something louder than pianisssimo ... I think the piano feeling is more authentic with a heavier instrument, but as I have the software I really don't need anything else than a set of keys with good quality and feeling. If the feeling is good - I expect at least the quality of my present Clavinova - then I think the price is fairly decent.

But if I want to test play the VPC1 I obviously have to travel half across the country and make an appointment with this showroom, and I hope you can give me a review that spares me that trip. The reviews I have seen so far have been promising, but I still look for focus on the action and feeling of the controller itself, not the cost and choice of software and surround equipment ...     

On the website of VPC-1 it's clearly stated that the VPC-1 is the keyboard only version of MP-10, so, if you have the opportunity to try a MP10 in a store there, you'll get the idea. The only advantage for me is VPC-1 has a velocity curve for a piano sample library that I use on all my tracks for several years so, it feels a bit custom made for me, you know

I'm living in Istanbul and the Kawai distributor does not have VPC-1 so they ordered it from factory so I'll get it in 2 months unfortunately. As soon as I get my fingers on it, I'll write what I see and feel though.

[hfmadopter]

If you thought your friends Bx8's sounded good then you at least have general feel for those. They are affordable and a SBX10 later on if you can't get the thunder you want out of the bass will interlace perfectly. They are made for one another, literally. Depends if you like that big concert grand sound and feel. I know I do and if you have ever played on one then you know what I mean, that low rumble and hit a big chord and roll up the keyboard. The vibration goes right through you. You can't experience that on small drivers and certainly not with headphones alone.

That said and the BX 8 may be good but I think my next main speaker set will be from Adams Audio. I'll keep my sub if/when I change those out.

Edit: hmm on second thought the BX5s and sub sound pretty darned nice ! Reference monitors are very directional especially in close. I recorded myself playing this piece I've composed in Em and walked around the room instead of sitting at the piano and the sound is very convincing after all ( just as my wife has been telling me all along). So I tweaked the angle in a bit more. I'm happy with this for now. Both the BX 5 and 8 have a blue led on the front for angle reference, if you buy those 8's use that reference !!

Also, look up some online video reviews of your choices.

[bronnestam]

On the website of VPC-1 it's clearly stated that the VPC-1 is the keyboard only version of MP-10, so, if you have the opportunity to try a MP10 in a store there, you'll get the idea. The only advantage for me is VPC-1 has a velocity curve for a piano sample library that I use on all my tracks for several years so, it feels a bit custom made for me, you know

I'm living in Istanbul and the Kawai distributor does not have VPC-1 so they ordered it from factory so I'll get it in 2 months unfortunately. As soon as I get my fingers on it, I'll write what I see and feel though.

Yes, VPC1 has a curve for Pianoteq as well so it looked like a good match. It is also cheaper than the MP10 - unfortunately it is not easier to find MP10 anywhere here than the VPC1. But I found a net retailer here in Sweden who sells it so I guess I can just order it and see what I think, if I'm not pleased I have the opportunity to send it back.

On the other hand, I don't have that second home yet, so there really is no hurry.

[ustun]

Then, last question - hopefully -  is that really a bad idea to go with hi-fi speakers?

[indianajo]

Some hifi speakers, like the La Scala, Voice of the Theater, or AR-3,  are legendary.  Most are trash. There are fads. When I bought my first hifi system, bookshelf speakers were all the rage because they were cheap but low distortion.  They had no bass, and couldn't do a piano low octave, but were fine on the Simon & Garfunkle tracks they used as the demonstrator in the store.   
Take a piano CD to the store with both high and low notes, loud and soft parts, and the ZZ Top Afterburner CD (Or other bass drum and or rimshot track), and test them out.  Does the piano sound like a real piano? like the CD on headphones?  That tests IM distortion and frequency reponse.  Does the bass drum hit sound like a proper thock, or do the high and low frequencies come out at different times?  That tests time alignment.  Again use headphones before you leave home for some idea of proper sound.  I find some $5 headphones can be quite competent.  Results vary, of course, your wood piano is the calibrator for proper sound. 
For the piano CD I used Three Sonatas of Beethoven by Rudolf Serkin, although the microphones on that disk were not modern and distortion free.  There are better recordings but I don't own one. Appasionata has some low notes to test the woofer.  Moonlight 3rd movement has loud and soft parts. 
If the store won't let you use your CD on their equipment, walk away.  Their choice of track is designed to sound good on that speaker.  Like the light Jazz the store was using to demonstrate Kilpshhorns in 1970, you couldn't tell anything critical about them. 

[hfmadopter]

Then, last question - hopefully -  is that really a bad idea to go with hi-fi speakers?

I have a Techics Parallax set that are very good souding. Paper speaker diaphrams, the woofers have rotted out/torn. These are either 8 or 10" woofers, I forget now which off hand ( replaceable though). They require an amp of course, being passive 3 way speakers. If you have an amp you can tie into with RCA out you could try a pair like those, I don't own one with 1/4" Line in . To buy a decent amp I could already be into a decent speaker made for piano sounds. Plus then I'm rebuilding those old Parallax.. Didn't make sense to me when a pair of smaller Sony speakers is enough to make my wife happy and I'm too busy on the piano to be listening to stereo generally ( or I'd rather spend my time doing that at least)..

[ustun]

Thanks for all the help here!

Even though I still did not put my hands on anything yet I feel that I'm making the right choices.

I found a seller of an old hi-fi system who lives quite close to me so, I'll be able to try that. If I don't like the results, then I'll go for monitors, probably for BX8's.

Thanks again!

[ustun]

After months, finally, I recieved my VPC-1 last month and I've been playing it without a break

Actually, I'm blown away with every part of it, I don't think how it could be upgraded to a later version in the future - since it's VPC-1, there will be a 2 - actually. Sensitivity is great, I play it with Galaxy Vintage D, response is same to my fingers when I compare it with my old console piano that I mentioned. I realized what triple sensor system on this beast is about in my first 10 seconds actually. It plays every kinds of legatos and tremolos very fluently. Ivory touch has a velvety touch, my old keyboards feel like toys to my fingers after getting used to Ivory Touch surface. The instrument is bus powered, you only need a USB cable to get it working. The package contains a triple pedal system - Kawai F-30 - and that is supported with the licensed sample libraries like Ivory and Galaxy.

There are some cons of the instrument, of course. First of all, the keyboard is heavy, 38,5 kg it is. The power button has a led light source inside of it. When you turn the keyboard on, it blinks and it's a bit disturbing to me.

Shortly, I'm very glad that I bought this controller. I'm verrry happy with it, thanks for all the help that I get here when I was selecting my keyboard again

Regards.

[hfmadopter]

After months, finally, I recieved my VPC-1 last month and I've been playing it without a break

Actually, I'm blown away with every part of it, I don't think how it could be upgraded to a later version in the future - since it's VPC-1, there will be a 2 - actually. Sensitivity is great, I play it with Galaxy Vintage D, response is same to my fingers when I compare it with my old console piano that I mentioned. I realized what triple sensor system on this beast is about in my first 10 seconds actually. It plays every kinds of legatos and tremolos very fluently. Ivory touch has a velvety touch, my old keyboards feel like toys to my fingers after getting used to Ivory Touch surface. The instrument is bus powered, you only need a USB cable to get it working. The package contains a triple pedal system - Kawai F-30 - and that is supported with the licensed sample libraries like Ivory and Galaxy.

There are some cons of the instrument, of course. First of all, the keyboard is heavy, 38,5 kg it is. The power button has a led light source inside of it. When you turn the keyboard on, it blinks and it's a bit disturbing to me.

Shortly, I'm very glad that I bought this controller. I'm verrry happy with it, thanks for all the help that I get here when I was selecting my keyboard again

Regards.

Great news, Enjoy it !!