Help me

[jorley]

I am playing the piano and have been doing so since the age of 14 or 15. When I fell in love in classical music it was like a salvation for me but I suddenly felt very depressed by the fact that I hadn't been playing the piano earlier which led to me thinking it would be impossible to become any good at the piano. So it took me a while to get really serious at it. But when I realized that I really had to play the piano in order to feel well and that my passion was there in the music, I started practicing like crazy and I progressed really fast. The problem was though, that I progressed almost too fast. Suddenly I could play pieces like Chopin's Nocturne Op 48 No 1 and his Ballade Op 23 in G Minor, which were my two goal pieces which I thought i would never be able to play. I still believed though that I had to "make up for the lost time" so I practiced more than what was healthy for me and I didn't think anything about how this made me feel. Suddenly I had a mental breakdown. Even though I had reached a fairly high level I just couldn't practice anymore. I became depressed and didn't touch the piano for 6 months. I am now 20 years old and my love for the piano is coming back once again. I feel like I have missed many of the basics of piano playing because of my bad patience and the fact that I progressed so quickly and practiced so much. But now I really only have one desire in life: To be able to play pretty much anything and to feel that I am a competent and well-rounded musician who can play pieces like Chopin's 3rd sonata and Beethoven's last sonatas. My questions are:

1. Do you think it will be possible for a 20-year old who started at the age of 15, to one day be able to play pieces like the ones I mentioned? I don't have any desire to be famous or anything, I just want to reach the kind of level where I can feel that I can do justice to whatever music I am trying to play. Pretty much, my dream is to develop a concert pianist technique!

2. Do you have any tips or so on how I can move on from now?


Thank you very much in advance! I would really appreciate if you took your time and answered me, as it would help me a lot!

[rmbarbosa]

yes. of course you can.
But you must be patient. Dont make yourself a slave of the piano. Dont "overwork". Keep calm. More than 3 or 4 hours/day isnt good.
Best wishes
rui

[awesom_o]

Read the thread currently under this one entitled "ABC Exercises"

Master them. This will probably take you somewhere between 2 and 4 weeks.

Once you have mastery of the ABC's, you can move on to developing an advanced virtuoso technique.

[m1469]

1. Do you think it will be possible for a 20-year old who started at the age of 15, to one day be able to play pieces like the ones I mentioned?

It depends more upon the individual person's inner musician than the human age, so in that sense, since I don't actually know you, I can't say that I know the answer to that.  I personally do not believe age is the determining factor, in and of itself (but I believe you are wondering based on age).

2. Do you have any tips or so on how I can move on from now?

Again, it depends on you as a person.  "Moving on" can be a very big subject, and it would be fun and easy to just say "keep practicing" but, even very practically speaking, that doesn't actually guarantee progress.

I don't have any desire to be famous or anything, I just want to reach the kind of level where I can feel that I can do justice to whatever music I am trying to play. Pretty much, my dream is to develop a concert pianist technique!

Personally, I think that saying things like the above are not quite as they seem.  Maybe you really feel that way, but I believe there is almost always a lot more to it, and one of the major underlying issues is actually just doubt, coupled with the fact that you believe you are on an abnormal musical path, communicating to a bunch of individuals who have been on a "normal" path, and that you actually need to somehow justify or excuse your desires based on what others may think.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but I'd invite your thoughts on that, if you'd like to consider it.

[jorley]

It's true m1469 that I feel like I am on an abnormal musical path, and I regret my path and so on, but I really don't have any wishes of becoming famous. I would not say no to being able to live on doing what I love, but famous? No, I guarantee you that.

[m1469]

It's true m1469 that I feel like I am on an abnormal musical path, and I regret my path and so on, but I really don't have any wishes of becoming famous. I would not say no to being able to live on doing what I love, but famous? No, I guarantee you that.

That's fine.  I was speaking more to the second part of that sentence "(...)or anything."  Did you actually just mean to say "I don't want to be famous."?  Or is there actually something specific you meant by "or anything"?  And then that, in contrast with wanting to develop a concert pianist's technique - for what purpose, exactly?  And now, that you say you'd welcome the ability to make a living doing what you love.

I'm just reflecting back to you what I see, and telling you I believe there is something which is not immediately congruent-seeming about your desires, for a reader like me.  But, if you are clear and that's that, then I guess you're good to go!

[jorley]

Okay I need to be more clear. I do want to reach a professional level of playing, but I do not need to become a concert pianist like Sokolov or Zimmerman. I just want to be good enough to feel that I can handle the instrument at a professional level.
I mean that in my experience, people have the prejudice that persons who ask questions like the one I did want to become famous more than they want to become good musicians. I assure you that's not the case for me. I have been through that already and the biggest problem I have is to be just as open minded as I child is. I think the difference between someone my age and someone who is ten years younger is that if someone who is ten years old doesen't know or understand something, than they are eager to learn it and they don't feel a shame and like "this I should already know", while someone my age is often the exact opposite: I always feel a bit a shame when I don't understand something because I compare myself with people younger than me who is already able to do things on the piano which I am not. Therefore, I have been "afraid" of learning because of the confrontation of doing things I feel like I should already be able to do, instead of just learning with joy like a child. I think that many teachers have this "judging" since of being when a person my age comes as a beginner to them and say "I want to be able to play at a concert pianist level" or "I want to be able to play Chopin's all etudes one day". I feels like they automatically think: "Well you are ten years too late unfortunately..."

Now I have to make clear that I am not a beginner though. I am actually fairly "advanced". I can play some medium difficult Beethoven sonatas like Op 13 and Op 26 and some of the easier Chopin Etudes, like Op 10 No 3 and Op 10 No 5.

 I feel like I have missed a lot of the basics and fundamentals of piano playing because I am largely self taught(though I have had a teacher once) I have been stressed about the fact that I feel "too old" and I have had other personal issues in my life which are now starting to be better. My question is simply: If a person who is at my age wants to reach a professional level of playing the piano(though one does NOT have to be famous), is it practically possible considering my background? Would it be possible for a 20-year old beginner to reach such a high level?

[brogers70]

What have you got to lose by trying? It seems you are not trying to become a concert pianist, just trying to reach a level at which you can play fairly difficult repertoire. So you lose nothing by assuming you can reach those goals and just going for it. If you make it to your satisfaction, that's great, but even if you don't you'll have spent many thousands of hours immersed in great music. So what's the downside to trying?

[m1469]

Okay I need to be more clear. I do want to reach a professional level of playing, but I do not need to become a concert pianist like Sokolov or Zimmerman. I just want to be good enough to feel that I can handle the instrument at a professional level.

Well, I'll speak to this first because it is the easiest to respond to:  There is really only one reason to be capable of handling the instrument at a professional level, and that is in order to be a professional musician.  So, I'd still encourage you to dig a little deeper in what you are actually after, and I don't think you can lose by truly defining to yourself *exactly* what you mean - in the exact and most precise wording you can possibly find, in whatever language you are most comfortable doing that in.

I mean that in my experience, people have the prejudice that persons who ask questions like the one I did want to become famous more than they want to become good musicians. I assure you that's not the case for me. I have been through that already and the biggest problem I have is to be just as open minded as I child is. I think the difference between someone my age and someone who is ten years younger is that if someone who is ten years old doesen't know or understand something, than they are eager to learn it and they don't feel a shame and like "this I should already know", while someone my age is often the exact opposite: I always feel a bit a shame when I don't understand something because I compare myself with people younger than me who is already able to do things on the piano which I am not. Therefore, I have been "afraid" of learning because of the confrontation of doing things I feel like I should already be able to do, instead of just learning with joy like a child. I think that many teachers have this "judging" since of being when a person my age comes as a beginner to them and say "I want to be able to play at a concert pianist level" or "I want to be able to play Chopin's all etudes one day". I feels like they automatically think: "Well you are ten years too late unfortunately..."

There are two main points:

1.  There actually IS shame actively put upon some individuals by others (in "authority") regarding their learning (of course, about many other things, too!).  It is not unheard of to be told  "You should know that by now" with some form of surprise or even a kind of "sentence" of never being able to learn it now, from the person saying it.  But, exactly how was this supposed to have been known already?  Because at certain ages there are just piano skills and musical knowledge that mature and fruit out of one's being, with or without specific training?

2.  Everything about my first point, as well as the rest of what I quoted from you above, cannot be considered out of context.  It is very important to understand that there is a (deep) context for every, single thing you wrote about.


The rest of your post is something I already addressed.  You can obviously keep asking and perhaps somebody will answer with greater insight, but I feel I should remind you that I have given you some points to consider and it's your turn to either ask a question in response, or otherwise take them deeper as answers, if you are not going to forget about them altogether.  

[jorley]

I will define for you what I want. I have a teacher now, who is a professional pianist and a professor at the university here in my city. He wants me to apply for the university. But I don't want to, because I feel I am not good enough. I feel I have skipped to many important steps in my development and I feel that my abilities are very uneven. I also feel like his wish is based on the fact that he feels that he actually doesn't have the time to teach me unless I go to univeristy. I would love to be going to the university and to later on be a professional musician, but I am not playing the piano to be "professional" or "going to the university", I am playing because of the music; I want to be able to play all the music I love and I want to fully understand it harmonically and so on. I want to be a good improviser. I want to understand how to compose, etc.

Therefore I want to go back to some basics before I apply to university; I would like to find a teacher who can go through the basics with me again and help me "fix" what is "broken".

[awesom_o]

I want to be able to play all the music I love and I want to fully understand it harmonically and so on. I want to be a good improviser. I want to understand how to compose, etc.

That is a wonderful goal! Don't let anyone discourage you from pursuing it.

Many 'professional concert pianists' are unable to compose or improvise!

There is plenty of good advice right here on this forum about how you can go about learning what you wish to learn.

[jorley]

Thank you awesome_o! So you do not think that my age makes it impossible to learn certain in music? Do you think that one can achieve a good enough technique to improvise very well and to play pieces like almost all the Chopin Etudes at my age for example?

Also, do you have any tips on how I can go about learning these things?

[awesom_o]

You ask for quite a bit. Without having heard you play, I cannot say as to whether or not it would be appropriate for you to study Chopin Etudes. They are all extremely difficult, even the easiest ones.

What is your knowledge level of music theory? Have you taken any written theory examinations?

Have you started work on the aforementioned ABC exercises yet?

[m1469]

I will define for you what I want. I have a teacher now, who is a professional pianist and a professor at the university here in my city. He wants me to apply for the university. But I don't want to, because I feel I am not good enough. I feel I have skipped to many important steps in my development and I feel that my abilities are very uneven. I also feel like his wish is based on the fact that he feels that he actually doesn't have the time to teach me unless I go to univeristy. I would love to be going to the university and to later on be a professional musician, but I am not playing the piano to be "professional" or "going to the university", I am playing because of the music; I want to be able to play all the music I love and I want to fully understand it harmonically and so on. I want to be a good improviser. I want to understand how to compose, etc.

Therefore I want to go back to some basics before I apply to university; I would like to find a teacher who can go through the basics with me again and help me "fix" what is "broken".

I would like you to consider something.  "Professions," as they are currently designed in our human culture, are not equipped nor truly meant as thee (one and only) vehicle to express our individual potential, not as a complete being, and not even with the particular skill set one's profession is activated by.  By everybody in the world having a "profession," as they are currently designed, is also not humankind's highest potential as a whole.  This is largely because without having some kind of profession, in this world as it currently is, it is possible to be homeless, foodless, "worthless."  The underlying reason for becoming a professional at anything is not a fully free decision, it is currently enslaved, at least partly, in a sense of fear for survival and meaning.  We are taught, though, that finding a certain profession, finding the right profession, ensures our highest potential, but it doesn't, because it can't.  It's not truly built that way.

What that means is that, at some point anyway, an individual will find that -almost no matter what profession they are involved in- they still have some kind of other or "higher" calling in life that is, in a way, irrelevant to money.  I call this "lifework."  Our lifework and profession may line up in some ways, but our lifework ends up being our most immediate and deepest intention for walking through this world in any way that we walk through it.  For example, somebody's lifework may be the same whether they are walking through the mountains, playing the piano on a stage, changing a baby's diaper, talking with a loved one, or scrubbing the kitchen floor.  It is whatever you feel you must be in this world while you are here, regardless of your profession.  This will mature and develop in ways that may mean it changes over time.  

We need to choose professions, yes, we do.  It is great if this can align with your truest sense of self.  But, everything we do in life is really just a vehicle for a deeper cause, and that includes your musical desires.

[jorley]

I know some basic theory of course but I am lacking on that area in my opinion.
I already do play two of the "easier" Chopin Etudes. What I mean is basically if it would be possible for someone starting at my age to eventually be able to play the harder pieces in the repertoire, like Chopin's 3rd sonata or something like that. I know it depends on the individual, but my question is if the AGE matters? Does the age make it harder?

I have done the ABC exercises and they all go well! I do them without any real difficulties

[jorley]

I would like you to consider something.  "Professions," as they are currently designed in our human culture, are not equipped nor truly meant as thee (one and only) vehicle to express our individual potential, not as a complete being, and not even with the particular skill set one's profession is activated by.  By everybody in the world having a "profession," as they are currently designed, is also not humankind's highest potential as a whole.  This is largely because without having some kind of profession, in this world as it currently is, it is possible to be homeless, foodless, "worthless."  The underlying reason for becoming a professional at anything is not a fully free decision, it is currently enslaved, at least partly, in a sense of fear for survival and meaning.  We are taught, though, that finding a certain profession, finding the right profession, ensures our highest potential, but it doesn't, because it can't.  It's not truly built that way.

What that means is that, at some point anyway, an individual will find that -almost no matter what profession they are involved in- they still have some kind of other or "higher" calling in life that is, in a way, irrelevant to money.  I call this "lifework."  Our lifework and profession may line up in some ways, but our lifework ends up being our most immediate and deepest intention for walking through this world in any way that we walk through it.  For example, somebody's lifework may be the same whether they are walking through the mountains, playing the piano on a stage, changing a baby's diaper, talking with a loved one, or scrubbing the kitchen floor.  It is whatever you feel you must be in this world while you are here, regardless of your profession.  This will mature and develop in ways that may mean it changes over time.  

We need to choose professions, yes, we do.  It is great if this can align with your truest sense of self.  But, everything we do in life is really just a vehicle for a deeper cause, and that includes your musical desires.

I understand what you are saying and have been thinking about these things myself actually. Though you express it very well. Your thought remind me a bit about Kirkegaard's philosophy. Have you read anything by him?

As for what you said, which was actually my main point: I know that at my age one soon has to find a way to make a living, because society has made it that way. But if we take a way all of that and only focus on the possibility of someone my age being able to become a good musician who can do justice of the harder pieces by Beethoven and Chopin, is it possible then? Because your thoughts actually do support the thought that it is possible, in my opinion. In other words, what would make it hard to be possible, is the society's general view of it and the difficulty finding someone who is willing to help someone at my age to reach my dream.

[awesom_o]

I have done the ABC exercises and they all go well! I do them without any real difficulties

I'll believe it when I see it. Do you have skype?


Your age makes it easier to master the instrument. Children generally do not and cannot play the piano particularly well.

[jorley]

Yes I do have skype! My account is jonteken! Add me if you like!

[awesom_o]

Done. I hope you can put your piano near your computer, or vice versa.

[jorley]

I can, yes!

[joon]

OP you're a lot like me! I only started to really play seriously since I had a rebirth in my love for piano a year ago at the age of 25!  Now I did have formal lessons when I was younger until I was 18 and did not play much from that time until now at age 23.

My thing is that I had to be able to play my favorite pieces.  Now that is innumerable, so I chose the songs with melodies that truly spoke to me.  It started with Nocturne in C, First Arabesque, Clair de Lune, Liebestraum 3... and now I am working on Chopin Etudes 10/1 and 25/1.   Though I am only a beginner in a sense, I feel much satisfaction in knowing that I can play the pieces I adore the most.

[skryabyn]

Look online for a university near you and email a piano professor. He or she will take you on for private lessons. Shell out for high quality lessons because it is worth it and important to you. All the "ABCs" in the world and everyone's ideas on the internet will only confuse you. I guarantee that you have imperfect technique. So do most people on these boards. Everyone gets very dogmatic about some magic technique that will fix all their problems. But there's so much depth to playing the piano and so many angles to consider that I think adult students particularly need very experienced teachers. I personally have a music degree in jazz guitar. I became obsessed with the piano when I was 27 and got to the point where was playing Chopin etudes and running into walls with my technique. I thought I could fix it by teaching myself and looking online at forums. I ended up with a very floppy technique. I have now taken lessons at a local private college for 3 years and the improvement in my control, relaxation, and how natural it feels to me have improved unbelievably. Find someone who plays classical music on a professional level and take lessons. All you need is free time to practice, the will to learn, and a teacher who KNOWS HOW TO PLAY VERY WELL. I would say it is more important to have a teacher who plays well than one who is good at communicating and teaching, because they know what it feels like to play well. Understanding is step 1 for teaching.

[skryabyn]

By the way my tone may have come off more negative than I intended. There may very well be value in everything everyone has to say on these forums, but it will NOT replace a high quality teacher. No exercises hold the magic key to successful playing. My point is that I took a lot of these internet concepts and applied them obsessively and it was really not helpful to me at all. I thought it was at the time, but it wasn't. Read as much as you want online, but take lessons because it's not a DIY kind of thing (and I'm a DIY kind of person so it was hard to come to that conclusion). Also, no way is it too late!

[jorley]

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110363349963957723779/albums/5991462289637344977

That's me playing the first ballade by Chopin, so that you can get a picture of how my playing is and from that distinguish my chances to reach my goals I am aware of the mistakes I make, but consider I am not in my best shape after 6 months of almost no delibarate practice

[louispodesta]

yes. of course you can.
But you must be patient. Dont make yourself a slave of the piano. Dont "overwork". Keep calm. More than 3 or 4 hours/day isnt good.
Best wishes
rui

Very well put.

And for the record, two very prominent teachers in the 19th century recommended that a promising student practice no more than two hours a day.  Their logic was that doing any more than that turns the playing of the piano into drudgery, and also long practice session pianists tend to sound mechanical.

Oh, the two teachers were named Hummel and Chopin.  You may have heard of them.

[jorley]

The amount of hours one practices doesn't matter in it self but the more the better AS LONG as you practice good. If you can practice good for 8 hours, of course it is better than 2, but if you can't it is not better. It entirely depends on the person. Practicing bad for 4 of the 8 hours is not as good as practicing good for 2 hours, I think...

Anyway, what do you guys think when listening to me playing the ballade, can you make a judgement and tell me what you think about my chances of becoming proficient enough to play pieces like the Chopin Sonatas and late Beethoven sonatas?

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110363349963957723779/albums/5991462289637344977

I know I make some mistakes in there when I play the ballade, but I am not in my best shape after a 6 monts break...

[bencollisonmusic]

Hello,

I'm not sure what others have said and offered as help but this is my response to your original post. I'm also the age of 20 but been studying piano since I was about 6 years old.

To answer your first question. There is no way you started too early. Sure there will be others who have around 10 years but I have know musicians who have started instruments or voice around when you started and they became very successful. I think you should keep it up, you said yourself you were making a lot of progress which is great!

Now to respond to your problem of loosing interested for six months and then coming back to it. Musicians call this lack of inspiration and I believe all musicians go through these periods. I know I do for sure, though I only take 1-3 days off (kinda go a bit crazy without music beyond that point).

If you really love music then you should persue it but keep in mind that the body and mind has it's limitations. Recognize your limitations and know when your over-practicing. It's great to get inspired and practice a lot... but during those times it help to take a day off here and there. When your lacking inspiration, then do regular daily practices that are shorter to keep you going and advcancing on your pieces.

I hope this help and your welcome to PM me if you have any further questions.

-Benjamin Collison

[m1469]

Anyway, what do you guys think when listening to me playing the ballade, can you make a judgement and tell me what you think about my chances of becoming proficient enough to play pieces like the Chopin Sonatas and late Beethoven sonatas?

Advanced repertoire is comprised of or requires a combination of skills, which have been practiced and developed over time through various pieces and exercises.  To be proficient enough to play a piece is to be capable of identifying the skills that are required for that piece, and to either knowingly already possess the ability to execute it in context, or have the ability to devise a practice strategy to build that skill and put it in context.  It is not actually about chance, it is a very practical process that you have control of.  If you can pick a piece and deduce specific skills that are required in order to play it and have the ability to execute or build those skills, then your chances of proficiency are pretty good.

[faulty_damper]

Anyway, what do you guys think when listening to me playing the ballade, can you make a judgement and tell me what you think about my chances of becoming proficient enough to play pieces like the Chopin Sonatas and late Beethoven sonatas?

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110363349963957723779/albums/5991462289637344977

You sound much better than you look while playing.  However, you have technical issues which causes you to drag in many places.  One problem is that you move way too much of your apparatus (arms and body) so it's not efficient.  You also tend to slap into the keys which is also not efficient.  One thing you should stop doing is emote with your body since that negatively affects your technique (though this may be a chicken or egg kind of thing.)

As for your question about playing those sonatas, that depends on whether or not you really want to play them.  Beethoven uses different technical vocabulary than Chopin.  However, good technique has fundamental bases regardless of the technical vocabulary.  You should learn those sonatas to see the limits of your technique.  Only then will you know that you're technique is sufficient or not.

[louispodesta]

The amount of hours one practices doesn't matter in it self but the more the better AS LONG as you practice good. If you can practice good for 8 hours, of course it is better than 2, but if you can't it is not better. It entirely depends on the person. Practicing bad for 4 of the 8 hours is not as good as practicing good for 2 hours, I think...

Anyway, what do you guys think when listening to me playing the ballade, can you make a judgement and tell me what you think about my chances of becoming proficient enough to play pieces like the Chopin Sonatas and late Beethoven sonatas?

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110363349963957723779/albums/5991462289637344977

I know I make some mistakes in there when I play the ballade, but I am not in my best shape after a 6 monts break...

After having put the piano aside for about 15 years, I came back to it.  Now, at the age of 62, I am playing better than I have ever dreamed.

The point is that you get there, when you get there.  Everything you have been taught about playing proficiency at a certain age is 100% Bull!!!

Rubinstein was considered an also ran until the age of 53.  By his own admission, he used to play faked pedal runs and improvise missed or forgotten notes, at will.

Your problem (I refuse to use the word "issues!) is that you, like other pianists of your age, are somewhat full of yourself.  You have had and continue to have those around you telling you how great you are, and it shows.

For the record, there are about a million pianists on this earth who can play the G Minor Ballade at the level you can.  That means that they, nor you, have a solid foundation in musicianship.

Succinctly put: you cannot sight sing, you cannot sing solo, you do not have a solid background in theory composition, and most importantly, you have not matured as a person.

Any fine art is a reflection of an individual's soul's life experience.  You, like many other "Enfant Terribles," have not taken the time to expose yourself to life's joys, and most importantly, its tragedy's.

You are very talented, but don't waste your time following someone else's pre-conceived notion regarding what it take to become a concert artist.

Good luck to you, and if you need to visit with me by personal message, then that is okay.