klavarskribo a different notation method

[ignaceii]

Make acquintance with another method of reading music.
No need to know musictheory, keys, ... nothing.
In Piano International appeared a 2 pages article on klavar..
It was my first companion for 20 years. Even for instance with a nocturne by Chopin, with lots of chords, difficylt keys I hesitate to grab my klavar version.

https://www.klavarvereniging.nl/index.php/video-klavar-uitleg

[awesom_o]

You know, in 20 years, you can get really REALLY good at sight reading, memorization, improvisation, and composition.

It is a great joy to know music theory. Why would you wish to have no need for something so important? 

[ignaceii]

This is a reply more for the topic theory and harmony, no. Here we are discussing klavarskribo.
But now after 20 years in the classical method, I learned implicitely music theory. So, yes I have an advantage to step in quicker in harmony.
But you see, it is all about sound. This thread gives you an idea that other methods exist to make the text sound.
I said earlier that even a hardcover handbook exists on harmony.
Someone can play all his life, not having to go through the years of music theory.
I just want to share with you a awful mecanism that is klavarskribo. As you will have noticed only usable for keyboards.

[gregh]

I don't think you'd be doing the students any favors by teaching them klavarskribo.

Here, try playing this:

https://www.guitarnick.com/images/a-night-at-the-fair-guitar-tab.png

That's guitar tab. I have basically the same criticisms of klavarskribo that I do with guitar tab. That is, it's specialized to one particular instrument (guitar tab is worse in the sense that it's specialized to a guitar with a particular tuning). It closes you off to most of the musical world. You can't share music with other musicians, you can't use most of the existing collections of music arranged for piano. Most books of music theory are general and won't use a notation that restricts it to a single instrument, and they shouldn't because pianos don't have their own special version of music theory. If you ever want to play something besides keyboard you'll have to learn a new notation.

I play with various instruments. I've played on recorder music written for piano. I've gotten a book of Christmas music for guitar and played it on trumpet because the guitar version was bigger and had more songs (it requires transposing up by a step). I've played on trombone music written for trumpet, which I already had and didn't want to buy a duplicate set for another instrument (take the notes down an octave and then a step). You don't need a special notation or even arrangement for each instrument. Just practice standard notation and transposing and you'll get used to it.

[awesom_o]

I don't think you'd be doing the students any favors by teaching them klavarskribo.

Here, try playing this:

https://www.guitarnick.com/images/a-night-at-the-fair-guitar-tab.png

That's guitar tab. I have basically the same criticisms of klavarskribo that I do with guitar tab. That is, it's specialized to one particular instrument (guitar tab is worse in the sense that it's specialized to a guitar with a particular tuning). It closes you off to most of the musical world. You can't share music with other musicians, you can't use most of the existing collections of music arranged for piano. Most books of music theory are general and won't use a notation that restricts it to a single instrument, and they shouldn't because pianos don't have their own special version of music theory. If you ever want to play something besides keyboard you'll have to learn a new notation.

I play with various instruments. I've played on recorder music written for piano. I've gotten a book of Christmas music for guitar and played it on trumpet because the guitar version was bigger and had more songs (it requires transposing up by a step). I've played on trombone music written for trumpet, which I already had and didn't want to buy a duplicate set for another instrument (take the notes down an octave and then a step). You don't need a special notation or even arrangement for each instrument. Just practice standard notation and transposing and you'll get used to it.

Great post!! 

[ignaceii]

Thanks awesome. Of course Greg has a point, it has its restrictions.
But for me it was a new world, playing an instrument, that was the most important.
Don't forget a lot of children don't have the capacity to play the piano traditionally, because theoretical it's hard for them.
It's making music that counts. If you play a guitar there are also tabulatura that give you the positioning of the chords.

Just I wanted you to give the link of the uk klavar foundation.
Some testlessons are included.

www.klavarmusic.org/

Long live the music, it is indeed awesome !!!!

[ignaceii]

I don't think you'd be doing the students any favors by teaching them klavarskribo.

Here, try playing this:

https://www.guitarnick.com/images/a-night-at-the-fair-guitar-tab.png

That's guitar tab. I have basically the same criticisms of klavarskribo that I do with guitar tab. That is, it's specialized to one particular instrument (guitar tab is worse in the sense that it's specialized to a guitar with a particular tuning). It closes you off to most of the musical world. You can't share music with other musicians, you can't use most of the existing collections of music arranged for piano. Most books of music theory are general and won't use a notation that restricts it to a single instrument, and they shouldn't because pianos don't have their own special version of music theory. If you ever want to play something besides keyboard you'll have to learn a new notation.

I play with various instruments. I've played on recorder music written for piano. I've gotten a book of Christmas music for guitar and played it on trumpet because the guitar version was bigger and had more songs (it requires transposing up by a step). I've played on trombone music written for trumpet, which I already had and didn't want to buy a duplicate set for another instrument (take the notes down an octave and then a step). You don't need a special notation or even arrangement for each instrument. Just practice standard notation and transposing and you'll get used to it.

I got used to it in practice yes. But it is much harder to play through a piece in 5 bmolls than in klavar.
And when you are tired and have pain, it's not fun anymore.
Comprendo. People are not all well and healthy...

[awesom_o]

Playing in all key signatures becomes easy when you practice your scales every day!

[ignaceii]

I used to work with the Brahms 51 exercises. A treasure of studies, but not straightforward.
Then there is a note, try to play them in all keys. Yes, huhu. Big problem, so off you go.
It's clear that a universal language must exist.

I remember lonl, very long ago, an example in the Introductionbook to klavar.
A Beethoven chord, I think left and right. Huge chords, with correction marks, double crosses (major mark on a note).
Incredible. Then next to it, the klavar translation. For me at least, piece of cake.
I wonder, one might learn from memory from the score, or from the keys. As if you remember a landscape you travelled through and the keys you struck. Klavar piano is a 1 to 1 relation. Traditional to piano is a 1-1-1 relation, meaning middle 1 the brain to translate.
Tabulatura exist since the 15th century, now it's odd, non-intellectual (Harmony in klavar handbook proves contrary).

When my mind fails I still have a backup. Nice thought.

[worov]

Don't forget a lot of children don't have the capacity to play the piano traditionally, because theoretical it's hard for them.

Kids go to school to learn English language. However many of them think that grammar is kind of boring and hard to understand. Should we start a new system of notation for written English ?

[gregh]

I remember a discussion on a trumpet forum, somebody was looking for advice on teaching young students. One thing he was told was that, when he's teaching students that age, he's not teaching them to play the trumpet, he's teaching them music. So the focus should be on things like rhythm, and not on the tone.

It seems like the same applies to piano, or any other instrument. You're not teaching the young student to be a pianist, you're teaching the student music.

[ignaceii]

Completely agree in both cases. I am not here to persuade anybody. But music is about sound, I think I wrote that to.
The matter is how do you write it down, with a sound structure underneath.
Children will need much time to pass in the grammatics. F key left hand, G Key right hand. And that is o ly the start.
Whether you write a note g on the second line right, and 1 line left hand, is already something strange for a beginner.
In klavar each note has the same position within the skeleton of the piano.
You can decrease the number of chords and keys for a violist, and just give him the part he needs.
Harmony from the beginning was there to underbuild the notation.
Nobody of course, certainly not those who spend 9 years in secondary education, to give it an applause.
I know the 2, and I say it does, because finally it's the sound that counts, not the piece of paper.
And I tell you that learning from memory having "understood" fhe "klavarharmony" will be a motoric memorisation, based on the keys on the score, a motoric process that the memory immediately translates into sound at the correct place.

It's not because you have a genuine grammatic, who needs lots of symbols to make it fit in the chromatic scale that you have a wonderful soundsystem.
Why wouldn't it be able to open doors for less talented musicians, but who have the passion. You don't use anymore letters, you use emails with lots of mistakes in it. That is a trap. Don't hurry in klavar because it is so easy to read.
Anyway there exist klavarplayerd entering amateur competitions.
Faure's nocturnes are no gimmy. They are beautifully layout in klavar.

But again. Whatever system you use, it's the SOUND that matters.

[alexiana]

I don't think you'd be doing the students any favors by teaching them klavarskribo.
...  I have basically the same criticisms of klavarskribo that I do with guitar tab. That is, it's specialized to one particular instrument... If you ever want to play something besides keyboard you'll have to learn a new notation....]

Hello Gregh e.o.
 I came across your nice topic about Klavarskribo. I really have to correct you on this one... Although there are different Klavarskribo courses for different instruments (accordion/guitar/keyboard/organ/harmonium/piano) Pot has meant Klavarskribo for ALL instruments. Also for mandolin, violin, trumpet, harp, and what other you want.
Klavarskribo if meant for ALL instruments. Every tone one note, every note one tone.  No sharps no flats. The beautiful thing of the piano clavier is that is has 88 notes, that's a huge range, far more than other instruments. Klavarskribo shows a musician exactly what notes to play on his instrument. This is possible because a piano does show the "flats and sharps" as black keys on it's clavier and  Klavarskribo uses this advantage. Unfortunately the 'older notation' has not changed with the introduction of the extra (black) tones and uses symbols (flats and sharps) in the notation instead of separate notes. If I am not really clear, watch the movie / documentary (1974!) from Pot about Klavarskribo in the Klavarskribo Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/klavarskribo/ or here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=255875441286584 (part1) and https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=255872304620231 (part 2).
Cheers!

[timothy42b]

That's interesting.  I watched the video.  It's a bit like guitar hero.

I've been reading traditional notation since about 1960 and it's pretty ingrained, not sure I could switch.  But I can see how klavar might be a little quicker to learn initially. 

[alexiana]

Thank you Tim!

Klavarskribo has been around since 1931 so I guess Guitar Hero and Synthesia are looking 'a bit like' Klavarskribo instead of the other way around  
To me Synthesia and Guitar Hero are a bit unhandy compared to Klavarskribo. In my opinion the greatest lack of Guitar/Piano Hero, Synthesia etc ans that you do not have a overview of what you are doing. With Klavarskribo you do not have that problem. Besides, with Klavarskribo you can look back at the music, open the music in software programs (e.q. KlavarScript https://www.klavar.com/en/), rearrange, listen on your pc or elec. instrument and print it etc.
I remember a more recent video (2014) instead of the video link I gave you from 1974!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIoIvxunihA

Kind regards

[j_menz]

I have enough trouble getting my hands on quite a lot of pieces I want in traditional notation. Why on earth would I adopt a scoring system that has nothing much written in it?

[timothy42b]

I have enough trouble getting my hands on quite a lot of pieces I want in traditional notation. Why on earth would I adopt a scoring system that has nothing much written in it?

You have a point,
but, really, isn't notation just a barrier between you and the music?

Does it matter so much what the barrier looks like, if you can get there?

I wish I could play more by ear, I have made good progress doing that on trombone but not on piano

[j_menz]

You have a point,
but, really, isn't notation just a barrier between you and the music?

Does it matter so much what the barrier looks like, if you can get there?

I wish I could play more by ear, I have made good progress doing that on trombone but not on piano

Not all of the stuff I seek out has been recorded, nor have I heard it played. Notation is not a barrier so much as the only door, and "by ear" is not possible for something not yet heard.

[alexiana]

I have enough trouble getting my hands on quite a lot of pieces I want in traditional notation. Why on earth would I adopt a scoring system that has nothing much written in it?

Amount of pieces music is really not an issue!
Any score (for any instrument) that exists in the traditional notation can easily be transcribed into Klavarskribo.*
This goes also for digital music that has not been written down (yet) for example with mid. mtd. mus. kar. xml (what I can think of right now).
Furthermore, there are thousands and thousands of scores (classical and contemporary) on the internet and special designed search bots so you don't have to search that hard.

*Therefor you have to make a photo of the original score with your smartphone as pdf, bmp, opt. tif. (or scan it) and open the music piece with a software program like Capella Scan, SmartScore, Neuratron Photoscore, Sharpeye etc. The software recognizes the music and you let it convert with KlavarScript to Klavarskribo. And if it is already digital this is even easier.
Finally you can ask somebody to play the desired music on a digitial interface and record it as midi and print is as Klavarskribo.

[awesom_o]

But music is about sound, I think I wrote that to.

Actually, according to Kristian Zimerman, music is not sound. Music is using sound to organize emotions in time.

[keypeg]

Any score (for any instrument) that exists in the traditional notation can easily be transcribed into Klavarskribo.

This sounds similar to ignaceii's earlier post where he writes

You can decrease the number of chords and keys for a violist, and just give him the part he needs.

Now, the logic of Klavarskribo is that it shows the notes where they appear on the piano.  That makes some sense for someone learning to play the piano.  But how would someone playing viola benefit from a picture of piano keys?  The equivalent would have to be 4 strings marked C G D A with little lights dancing along them, maybe with position markers.  The same for any other instrument.

It makes as much sense to have Klavarskribo for viola, guitar or flute, as it would to have guitar tabs for piano music.

[timothy42b]

This sounds similar to ignaceii's earlier post where he writes
Now, the logic of Klavarskribo is that it shows the notes where they appear on the piano.  That makes some sense for someone learning to play the piano.  But how would someone playing viola benefit from a picture of piano keys?  The equivalent would have to be 4 strings marked C G D A with little lights dancing along them, maybe with position markers. 

I don't think so.

There is more than one visual representation that can work.  The great staff can be used for any instrument (and I advocate that it should be, but tradition prevents this quite firmly, long after the reason is gone.) 

The great staff is basically a piano layout, but I use it to think on trombone when playing by ear.  I could do the same with klavar if I had more experience and, well, youth. 

[keypeg]

First, the grand staff is not a piano layout, though I know what you are referring to.  Second, if you don't play piano, then higher notes literally feel higher, and that is how they are portrayed on the grand staff.  Anyone with left-right difficulties (which I do) will find the sideways layout disorienting - the only reason I can cope with it on the piano is because I can hear where the notes are higher to orient myself.

It means that a non-pianist first has to learn the left-right orientation, has to learn to think like a pianist, and then has to relearn the staff of his instrument anyway (on viola that is alto and treble clef).  Why not use standard notation in the first place?

[j_menz]

Second, if you don't play piano, then higher notes literally feel higher, and that is how they are portrayed on the grand staff. 

Cello, double bass - higher the note, closer to the floor your hand goes on the fingerboard.

[timothy42b]

Cello, double bass - higher the note, closer to the floor your hand goes on the fingerboard.

Guitar is left and right. To the right is higher for a right handed person and lower for a left handed person.

Trombone is in and out.  In is higher, out is lower. 

Trumpets go downwards with each additional valve pressed, in a prescribed order.
French horns do the same but in reverse because they're played left handed. 

It may well be that not all cultures call a high note high.  There's nothing inherent about a greater frequency note being "higher;" remember that the same note has a lesser wavelength. 

[keypeg]

There is no reason for someone who does not play piano, to first have to think in piano terms, and then switch to normal notation as a second step.  It is much easier to start with notation in the first place.