Losing my faith in Classical Music...

[perfect_pitch]

Greetings all...

This is probably the first time I have ever ranted, but I wanted to get the opinion of others - a number of members I do respect on this forum. It has become apparent to me over the last couple of weeks that I am losing more and more interest in Classical music. I think that it stems from the fact that as a person - I wanted to be a concert pianist more than anything in the world. Thanks to almost a decade of (what I now know to be) amateur and dodgy teachers - I think the odds of me actually becoming famous playing classical music repertoire is non-existent.

GRANTED, that Classical music served a purpose. It has got me to the point in which I play today, but I feel that if someone is to really become famous for piano playing - playing the pieces in which about several hundred others before you have already done, may not be the way to go (this also coupled with the fact that right now China have approx 100,000,000 students learning the piano - so get ready for about 3,000,000 renditions of Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto in about 10 years time).

I think to myself whether going down the path of Arranging for Concert Repertoire may be the thing to detach myself from every other person playing Beethoven Sonatas or Chopin Scherzos. I have in the past arranged a number of medleys, themes for piano, 2 of which have earned me almost 200,000 hits on YouTube.

Does anyone have any advice for someone who has always longed to play piano and still does, but is starting to feel that Classical Music is becoming stale??? I could really do with it, as I haven't really felt this way before.

[mjames]

...Why do you want to become famous? Why don't you just play for the sake of it, for the love of it? It's stress free! Anyways man can you link me to your youtube channel? I'd love to listen to your arrangements. Oh and why don't you play some Liadov pieces for me?

[theholygideons]

Why are you basing your impressions of classical music off of your ability to exploit it as a means of becoming famous? The only reason why it's becoming stale is because of your perception that since everyone else is playing whatever piece it is, you have no way of standing out from the crowd, and therefore you're discouraged from playing the same pieces. If you approach music from the point of view of intrinsic love, you'd constantly be discovering new things, even in overplayed pieces. It's not the music that is stale, it's you who is becoming stagnant, and not developing into the proper artist you imagine yourself to be. Fame is just a byproduct of becoming a successful pianist.  

[perfect_pitch]

@mjames...

It's not much right now, but I have 5 of my best arrangements up there. Right now, my piano strings are out of tune at the top end after I broke a couple practicing Brahms Piano Concerto. I like playing piano for the sake of it, but I want to do something that hasn't been done 100 times before.

Also, sadly enough - I've never heard of Liadov... Do you have any suggestions that I can listen to?

@holygideons

I don't want to exploit classical repertoire. I believe that so far classical music has trained me and the only reason I can play at the level I can is thanks primarily, to classical music. I like the idea of fame because there are hundreds of Concerto Competition playing pianists, who may end up making a CD, and then they go back to piano teaching. They have a small window of fame and then it's gone. I love Classical piano, but is there something I can get out of it, that no one else can???

Fame may be a by-product of being a successful pianist, but it's one I'd like to have... or at least try for. I feel the odds of being a proper artist by playing the music of Chopin or Rachmaninoff are getting slimmer and slimmer; mainly because soon Classical music is become to become super-saturated with a whole plethora of asian 'wunderkinds'. Considering that soon the internet will become populated by millions of 5-year olds playing Mephisto's Waltz, I worry that true emotional and professional performances of piano playing won't be recognised anymore.

[mjames]

Thanks for the links!

Oh and here are some videos, you'd have to buy some cds to listen to more of his stuff.

[m1469]

Losing my faith in Classical Music...

Classical Music is not something one puts faith into or not.  It is nothing more than an organization of dissonance and consonance.  How that is used in the world by people is when a human quality like "faith" comes in.  It is a tool for the human spirit and what matters is whether its use has simply become a meaningless routine.  If so, it's time to cadence and build a new motive, phrase, movement ...  

[faulty_damper]

Yeah, and it's still going to be there if or when you get back to it.  It's not going out of style like a Justin Bieber song, or Justin Bieber himself.  It will be there long after you die.

As for your technical training, you aren't dead yet so you still have until you do to relearn your technique so that it is easy and effective.  If it isn't, and you find yourself spending endless hours practicing, then that is not the easy and effective technique you should be acquiring.

[nitros]

Start composing your own music.

[thalbergmad]

Does anyone have any advice for someone who has always longed to play piano and still does, but is starting to feel that Classical Music is becoming stale???

Classical music is as stale as you want it to be. However, I do take your point about a million people all playing the Rach 3.

I did not find a really good piano teacher until I was 37, so it was far too late for me to consider any kind of performing career, but for this, I am eternally grateful. As an amateur, I am not obliged to play anything I do not want to and actively avoid the popular repertoire, leaving that to be ruined by the never ending stream of automatons. However, this leaves thousands of works that are rarely or never played for me to study.

Instead of Beethoven, I play Woelfl, instead of Mozart, I play Clementi or Eberl and instead of Liszt I play Thalberg. I never find classical music stale.

Thal

[j_menz]

This is probably the first time I have ever ranted

I somehow doubt that. 

Seriously, though. By all means do your own arranging.  But also be aware that there is an enormous amount of music out there that is both very good and very unknown. Go exploring.

[ted]

Perhaps the issue lies at a much deeper level than the nature of one particular genre of music. Do you know what really makes you happy ? Many people take years to find out and some never know at all. Ideally, what makes you happy ought to lie, to a considerable extent, within the bounds of external reality. That is not, of course, to say it should be totally dependent on stimulus and response from outside. This latter is an assumption all too common in today's world, and its tragic results are in the papers every day. Fame is an extreme example of external reinforcement, and the pursuit of it is rather like making one's happiness actually depend on whether the million dollar prize is struck in a lottery.

Until the world rejects monetary systems we all have to earn a living somehow. How you do so personally may or may not concern your music. From what I know, you have more than enough talent in certain areas to make some sort of a career in music definitely feasible. It does seem to be a peculiar characteristic of very talented people to disregard the abilities, sometimes exceptional ones, they possess, and desire other ones they find inaccessible. This must be just human nature to some extent, as the phenomenon is almost ubiquitous.

Might you not be assigning classical music and concerts per se an unwarranted degree of importance in relation to your enjoyment of music ? Music is much, much bigger than either of these areas in its capacity to fulfil at the personal level and provide a good living too if that route is taken. My teacher's spread of musical ability was very similar to yours, and he made an enormously successful career for himself arranging, teaching, composing, performing with his own orchestra, both classical and jazz. He ended up with a degree of fame, at least in his own country, although he was initially a builder and cabinetmaker by trade.

Nobody can tell you what you "should" do, but it seems to me you might be unnecessarily limiting your options.    

  

[brogers70]

I second the recommendation to look for less popular classical composers. There is lots of good music out there that rarely or never gets performed. You can avoid playing all the war horses if you like and still find new and interesting music from the classical period.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I think to myself whether going down the path of Arranging for Concert Repertoire may be the thing to detach myself from every other person playing Beethoven Sonatas or Chopin Scherzos. I have in the past arranged a number of medleys, themes for piano, 2 of which have earned me almost 200,000 hits on YouTube.

Do what you feel comfortable doing. Don't let yourself be bound by convention. You're quite right - it will be almost impossible for ANYONE, not just you, to become famous playing standard repertoire. There are plenty very fine pianists in the world who are almost unknown. But if you find a niche, who knows? The world is changing, and people can find a certain type of fame (if that's what you're really looking for) through YT. And more importantly, you'll be happier doing something you believe in, rather than doing something that you don't believe in just because orthodoxy obliges you to do it.

[outin]

Here's my point of view... I buy quite a lot of records...yet I seldom buy recordings of the most famous pianists (at leats not the ones still alive). Why? Because they mostly record something I have already heard 100 times (or never wanted to hear in the first place). I like to explore and often the less known music is recorded by less famous pianists. I seldom go to concerts anymore, but if I consider whether going or not it is more important for me what is played than who is playing. I assume I am not the only one who consumes music this way? So maybe it's not necessarily so important to get famous to get somewhere...

And Mr. Perfect...if you have not heard of Lyadov, there's a lot more for you to explore as well 

[perfect_pitch]

Well... Some very good replies and very thoughtful ones.

I guess I've realised that all I ever wanted in my life was to be someone at the piano. In my younger years, I presumed that the only way to ever pursue this was through Classical music so maybe that has narrowed my field of view for a while.

Granted that I'm probably not that good at composing sadly enough, but I think deep down - arranging allows me to put a unique twist to music that already exists - partially creating something that is created by me (albeit composed by someone else - much like the transcriptions of Liszt).

Problem is however, that ultimate goal I've always wanted since I was 9 and started piano was to be successful in the piano. I wanted to know what it would be like to stand in front of audiences and perform major works of piano that would inspire and amaze... I still want that. I feel that trying to achieve that through Classical music is almost impossible now. Maybe my perception on Classical music being stale was a little harsh on my part. I still love the great works of piano and maybe they will still continue to inspire me, but for now I guess I'm looking for my own way of being someone - and that Classical Music will not get me there.

Also - thanks for the postings of Lyadov. I presume there's about 100 different composers I may never have heard the works from, but you only get one life to try and play as much as you can and the range of classical music is so diverse it could fill 100 lifetimes.

[m1469]

I guess I've realised that all I ever wanted in my life was to be someone at the piano.

If Rachmaninoff never lived the life we know him to have lived, or developed in the ways we think of him as having done, leaving with us what he did, would he still have been Rachmaninoff?  What if he had everything within him to give, and no way to give it?  What if, instead of developing his musicianship, he spent his time on earth as a largely unknown dog pooper-scooper and a lawn mower?

And who would all of the pianists of the present world be, whose "greatest achievement" and sense of identity is that of playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd piano concerto, if Rachmaninoff never wrote it?

[quantum]

If Rachmaninoff never lived the life we know him to have lived, or developed in the ways we think of him as having done, leaving with us what he did, would he still have been Rachmaninoff?  

It has been known to happen.  Some composers lived an ethos quite in contrast to the perception of modern day thinking.  Take Bach for an example, the manner in which he is idolized (and by some deified) today is not for the same reasons to which he was known in his own time.   

[m1469]

It has been known to happen.  Some composers lived an ethos quite in contrast to the perception of modern day thinking.  Take Bach for an example, the manner in which he is idolized (and by some deified) today is not for the same reasons to which he was known in his own time.  

I am not talking about idolization by others, I am talking about literal contribution to the world, and Bach's was major.  Regardless of what people think or thought of him, he was still pumping out music as a large part of his identity and personal, daily activity in this world.  He woke up everyday, had a cup of coffee, and was musical.  That is who he was inside and out, I know because I was there  .

[quantum]

I am not talking about idolization by others, I am talking about literal contribution to the world, and Bach's was major.  Regardless of what people think or thought of him, he was still pumping out music as a large part of his identity and personal, daily activity in this world.  He woke up everyday, had a cup of coffee, and was musical.  That is who he was inside and out, I know because I was there  .

And with contribution comes perspective.  The point being that the manner in which Bach was perceived during his time is quite different and contrasted to the manner in which he is perceived today.  Considering the Bach example, idolization is not an extraneous point of reflection but an integral part of perception certain people impart within the definition of his ethos - or being more specific: their particular definition of Bach's ethos.  

The contributions we perceive of a composer are also largely reflective of the historiography surrounding such figure.  What we know of the composer is largely based on readings of text by said experts in such field.  Following that we are also privy to the interpretations of said experts of primary evidence. 

[m1469]

And with contribution comes perspective.  The point being that the manner in which Bach was perceived during his time is quite different and contrasted to the manner in which he is perceived today.  Considering the Bach example, idolization is not an extraneous point of reflection but an integral part of perception certain people impart within the definition of his ethos - or being more specific: their particular definition of Bach's ethos. 

I can accept this.  And this is not news for me.  What I don't understand is your point in context? 

[quantum]

Made an edit,  see above.

***

What I was trying to get at is the questions you posed:

[...] the life we know him to have lived, or developed in the ways we think of him as having done, leaving with us what he did [...]

have answers that change over time, as knowledge and thinking evolve over time.

[m1469]

Yes, I understand these things in and of themselves and I read your edit.  But, let me then make my question more personal to perhaps have it be better understood.  Who would you be, for example, if you have not developed musically in the ways you have?  Do you think it's even possible to be something/somebody different?  

In a way, I am asking Rachmaninoff who he would be (even though he's not here to answer), not (just) what the world would perceive of him - which would obviously be different than it is, and which is always only a portion of what he actually was to himself.

[quantum]

It is clearer now.  You are speaking of life events that shape a person.  

[m1469]

It is clearer now.  You are speaking of life events that shape a person.

Yes and no.  I am asking, what makes somebody who they are?  PP wants to be somebody at the piano.  Must he have particular things happen in order to be who he is and could possibly be?

Some of us do not have the luxury of a life that is un-requiring of asking these questions.

[quantum]

Some of us do not have the luxury of a life that is un-requiring of asking these questions.

Really?  How would you justify that.

[m1469]

Really?  How would you justify that.

Hey, man, all we are is dust in the wind.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey, man, all we are is dust in the wind.

Well... I'd like to think that when I die, at best - I'll be dust in the wind... UNTIL THEN...

I think I need to re-think my goals in piano and try to diversify into something new that will excite me more. Granted my ultimate goal is to (and I can't believe I am going to say this after my previous posts, but I do) want to play Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto as an ultimate goal for me.

Till then - I think I need something a little more stimulating than classical music.

[ignaceii]

I have exactly the same feeling.
If it can help. See my topic still mad on this forum and the start of a piano depression on the performance forum.
There is also a fopic on the decline of classical music.

I have had it with as you say, the 1000000 performance of Beethoven sonatas, 1000s of rachs and proks.
Henselt, Dussek, ........ never heard of. All standard repertoire. Gilels at least played the Henselt concerto.
It is a real Schumann. Audiences are lazy, performers, concert managers only intrested in 1 thing.

In the next edition of Pianist magazine, an article on unkwown repertoire by my hand will appear.

And sayong, Dussek was copied by Beethoven. Henselt part of the circle of 6, with Chopin and Liszt.
The only buzz is about Alkan.

That's what you get when you let the chinese in. 2nd sjostakovitch concerto too easy for madame Wang.

Go your own way my friend, but classical music goes through deep waters....

[ajspiano]

I'm not sure that its possible to really be a famous pianist, for anyone, at least not in the way we hold past greats up with such reverence. It's a heavily saturated market where even the most famous ones are becoming a bit indistinguishable from one another.

I can't really relate to "fame" being the goal though. Earning your living performing the music you love for people who want to hear it is more my style, and that can be achieved I think. Its also something that I think can be achieved along side the idea of bringing classical music to the attention of people who are unaware it exists - which is something I find equally satisfying.

Also, since I share the desire to perform the overplayed 3rd concerto may i say simply that I don't care how many other people play it. I like the piece, and really that's all that matters..  and by this stage I'm telling you everyone else in my life hates it - and I don't care about that either.

I guess I've realised that all I ever wanted in my life was to be someone at the piano

I think being overly wrapped up in what you do (i am a pianist and that's all I am) is a trap. Be a person first - bring that to the instrument, and let that bring you closer to the audience. Fame in this industry requires you to set yourself aside from just performing the stardard rep - people have to like you.

........

if you really want to be famous though, you could probably take tips from the below - which just goes to show why fame should never be the goal.

[j_menz]

if you really want to be famous though, you could probably take tips from the below -

If there's a sudden increase of videos in the audition room featuring pianists swinging naked from chandeliers, I'm blaming you! 

[perfect_pitch]

If there's a sudden increase of videos in the audition room featuring pianists swinging naked from chandeliers, I'm blaming you! 

Yeah - There's fame without dignity or respect through debasing yourself by scraping the bottom of the barrel and continuing to tunnel through the floor, and then there's the combination of fame & sanity. I see that Miley went for Option No. 1.

I would like to point out that although I have heard of the song - I have never heard it or seen the video clip and dare not.

[pianoman53]

I hear Ricky Gervais (spelling?) talk about fame.
If your goal is to be a famous pianist, it really isn't that difficult. All you have to do is something really stupid, or dangerous and you'll be famous.

If you want to be like everyone else, and being famous, then you're in a bit of a tricky position.

I would suggest you to get a book called "Guide to the Pianist's Repertoire" by Maurice Hinson.
It's a 600 pages long book, filled with more or less anything that's written for piano solo.
It hasn't been to very much use for me, since I'm perfectly happy to play standard repertoire for now. Though, whenever I feel like listening to something I've never heard before, I open a random page, and usually find a composer I've never heard of. Sometimes the music is obvious crap, but sometimes it's a happy surprise.

There is also loads of pieces there that hasn't really been recorded, so that's an option.

[ajspiano]

pianists swinging naked from chandeliers

i think you'll find the tongue kiss with a sledge hammer is what really does it for the general public.

[ajspiano]

I would like to point out that although I have heard of the song - I have never heard it or seen the video clip and dare not.

I've heard the song.. my life unfortunately provides occasional exposure to commercial radio. Haven't seen the video and don't plan on it.

I saw a parody and that was more than enough.

[quantum]

[...] and then there's the combination of fame & sanity.

Have you considered getting an artist manager?

There is a lot about the music industry that is on the business/marketing side of things. 

[goldentone]

Perfect Pitch, what about considering a closer horizon--your community?  What about planning and organizing a recital, renting out a facility for an evening or two?  It may take a little money, but I think that would be a rewarding effort, and from there you can gain confidence for the future.  It's a more easily achievable goal in the present instead of simply the macro world famous.  Recitals in the community are doing the same thing as in front of many people, just on a smaller scale.    

[ignaceii]

Classical Music is not something one puts faith into or not.  It is nothing more than an organization of dissonance and consonance.  How that is used in the world by people is when a human quality like "faith" comes in.  It is a tool for the human spirit and what matters is whether its use has simply become a meaningless routine.  If so, it's time to cadence and build a new motive, phrase, movement ...  

Oh, for god sake, write english philosophy of music, and speak out.
We could also lay you naked on the strings of an open piano, and play John Cage on the strings,
if you find them.
Your faith will return instantaneously.

[j_menz]

i think you'll find the tongue kiss with a sledge hammer is what really does it for the general public.

I wouldn't know. I haven't even heard it, much less seen the video. And I've never been able to understand what the "general public" goes for.

@ p_p - have you considered marrying a Kardashian?

[ajspiano]

I wouldn't know.

Now you know.



mwahahahha

.....

seriously though -
I actually think being an relatively unknown but successful touring pianist is a valid and achievable goal.

[j_menz]

Now you know.

Really!

an relatively unknown

   Your time away hasn't been well spent, it seems.

[ajspiano]

Why did you do that?

Your time away hasn't been well spent, it seems.

1. Dont you mean you're?

2. The above should be sufficient to answer your initial question.

....

Though perhaps because that and the video (whether you watch it or not) illustrates that fame should be achieved as a by product of good art, not as a primary goal. As a pianist I think you can probably achieve fame if a deliberate effort is made to separate yourself from the pack so far as image and personality presentation, recital entertainment value etc. But I don't think that the pianist him or herself should be the person making that effort if you plan to be performing classical music.

Everyone here knows the effort and struggle required to perform this music at an elite level - I strongly doubt anyone can do that and be a marketing and PR manager simultaneously on a macro level. So the answer probably lies in the above suggestion someone made about having an agent, but I suspect that getting a high enough profile agent that will really put you in the public eye depends almost exclusively on world stage competition results..   again not something I like the sound of, nor do I like the odds associated with achieving success in that area.

[perfect_pitch]

@ p_p - have you considered marrying a Kardashian?

Yes... I thought about it, along with the thoughts of slashing my wrists...   

[j_menz]

1. Dont you mean you're?

2. The above should be sufficient to answer your initial question.

1. No. 

2. Yes, but not in the way you were hoping for.

[j_menz]

Yes... I thought about it, along with the thoughts of slashing my wrists...   

Another option is the Liberace/Andre Rieu route. All you have to swallow is your self respect.

[perfect_pitch]

Mmmm...

Thanks - don't think that's helpful either.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Granted that I'm probably not that good at composing sadly enough, but I think deep down - arranging allows me to put a unique twist to music that already exists - partially creating something that is created by me (albeit composed by someone else - much like the transcriptions of Liszt).

This rings a bell with me. You're working from a good starting point and all that is required is ingenuity in manipulating the material. I would, in your shoes, really seriously consider putting together a set of arrangements from video games/films (which I see you've already started on), get them recorded to the best level you can afford - hire a church hall for the day, or similar, do multiple takes, edit them together if you can (it will get done better if you get a pro to do it, but of course that costs), and see where that takes you. This is a niche and you may be able to make something of it; people have already started in this area. It is also a niche with a very large potential audience. It is surely worth a go. The surest way to achieve nothing is to try nothing. I don't want to divert this thread to being about me, but if it provides you encouragement, can I just say I've done something pretty similar in being obsessively interested in transcriptions from opera for years (including writing my own) and it's finally paid off for me in the sense that I have a CD available through a reputable record company. re fame, if that's important to you, your arrangements appeal to a large potential audience, so if luck is one your side, you could well make something big of it. Jarrod Radnich for example is probably more famous than many arguably better pianists who have taken the conventional classical route.

[pianoplayer51]

A lot of very lovely pianists play classical music and I never get tired of hearing people play classical music.  I do not like to hear pop music on a piano so much like Elton John and the like

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Man...

Are you a born Scot? Through and through??? I am - born in Glasgow. I do know quite a bit about recording, filming and editing software from a Audio & Video point of view, and just bought a place. Hoping to turn one of the rooms into a good recording room.

Most of the churches here in Australia have shoddy pianos... Not many have really nice performance pianos. Classical music out here in Australia has practically been beaten to death by the copious amount of sport they practice. We have one Concert Hall and several bloody dozen sports arenas. Kind of sad...

I remember when you actually released that CD... It was mid-last year, I think. Thanks for the kind words. When I move into my new house, I would like to seriously get started on my transcriptions. It only took me a week to do my 'Let it go' from Frozen, and now I'm just sorting out small nit-picks.

I know what you mean about Jarrod Radnich - that's also the feeling I get. I feel that with the soon-to-be influx of a jillion Asian pianists, the market is going to be saturated with Classical music and lose more of its 'luster'. I feel that my niche is away from Classical music for now - although I still hold it in the highest regard in terms of pianism - maybe I can help improve the bravura element of transcriptions of Game/Movie/TV/Anime music.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Yes, I've lived in Scotland all my life. If you could get a studio room set aside in your house, that would help enormously. I agree that, with the conservatoire system increasingly churning out identikit pianists with impeccable technique but with very little to say, the industry is a hard place to make any mark. Forget it with anything like Beethoven sonatas. And there seems an increasing trend of signing photogenic young female pianists - some are better than others - but it's just an increasing number of candidates fighting over a very small pie. Luckily, the other side of the coin is the way recording technology is now accessible for a reasonable price and yt exposure can be very valuable, so I think we're going to see more people doing interesting, different piano projects without the need to go to record companies for pre-approval. Hopefully:)