Bach: Goldberg Variations: Aria

[devbanana]

Hello,

Here's the Aria from the Goldberg Variations. I have four of the variations finished but haven't recorded them yet. I figured I'd post this to begin with.

Sorry about the quality; this was recorded on my iPhone.

[devbanana]

No input on this? I'd appreciate anything anyone has to say.

[awesom_o]

I find the way you handle the ornamentation to be a bit awkward. Some of the LH trills were particularly clunky-sounding, rather than being controlled and even.

Have you ever tried playing this music on a harpsichord?

Playing harpsichord teaches you a great deal about how to interpret this repertoire.

Some of your rubatos seemed a bit out-of-context, stylistically. It's not that the rhythm should ever sound inflexible or rigid, but it mustn't ever drag.

[devbanana]

I find the way you handle the ornamentation to be a bit awkward. Some of the LH trills were particularly clunky-sounding, rather than being controlled and even.

Have you ever tried playing this music on a harpsichord?

Playing harpsichord teaches you a great deal about how to interpret this repertoire.

Some of your rubatos seemed a bit out-of-context, stylistically. It's not that the rhythm should ever sound inflexible or rigid, but it mustn't ever drag.

Thanks for your input. Yes I have to work on the LH trills. Any recommendations for how to do this? I find it awkward because the bottom note has to be held while fingers 1-2 trill.

Also what specific areas did you think were dragged out? I've played romantic pieces most of my life, so I'm rather new to baroque.

Thanks again.

[awesom_o]

No specific places were badly dragging in that sense.

Your overall approach to the phrasing seemed more influenced by 19th century music than by 18th century music, so it comes as no surprise to me that you are rather new to the Baroque style.

The Goldberg Variations are not the best place to start for somebody who is unfamiliar with the Baroque style!

Baroque is not an easy style to develop. The ornamentation and polyphony can be very complex, and even simple Baroque pieces in the lower grade levels of systems such as the RCM are very, very difficult to play on the piano with a graceful understanding of style. 

[awesom_o]

Yes I have to work on the LH trills. Any recommendations for how to do this?

Work on your LH outside of the context of music. Brush your teeth with your left hand, learn to juggle, learn to write/draw with your LH, etc.

Make sure you play trills from the surface of the key itself, rather than trying to hit the keys from above.

The ABC exercises (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=54246.0)
are a great way to equalize both hands in terms of skill.

[devbanana]

No specific places were badly dragging in that sense.

Your overall approach to the phrasing seemed more influenced by 19th century music than by 18th century music, so it comes as no surprise to me that you are rather new to the Baroque style.

The Goldberg Variations are not the best place to start for somebody who is unfamiliar with the Baroque style!

Baroque is not an easy style to develop. The ornamentation and polyphony can be very complex, and even simple Baroque pieces in the lower grade levels of systems such as the RCM are very, very difficult to play on the piano with a graceful understanding of style. 

I think I'll be able to play the Goldberg just fine. I have a good piano teacher that's working with me to develop the appropriate style. We just have to work on it more.

[awesom_o]

I think I'll be able to play the Goldberg just fine. I have a good piano teacher that's working with me to develop the appropriate style. We just have to work on it more.

Your confidence will serve you well in learning this precariously difficult work!

Don't worry about 'perfecting' the aria or the first four variations at this early point in your work with the piece. It's best to try to gain an overview of the entire work as early as possible, so that you can master its entire structure, rather than spending too much time on isolated portions of it.

[devbanana]

Your confidence will serve you well in learning this precariously difficult work!

Don't worry about 'perfecting' the aria or the first four variations at this early point in your work with the piece. It's best to try to gain an overview of the entire work as early as possible, so that you can master its entire structure, rather than spending too much time on isolated portions of it.

Thank you. At this point I am on the 5th and 6th variations. As I go I am finding different techniques to work on the style. On the 6th variation, the canon of the second, I am learning each voice independently and separately, then bringing them together. I'm retroactively going back through the prior variations and doing the same thing as I think this helps me to bring out each voice better.

My piano teacher has given me a lot of advice regarding playing in the style of the harpsichord and the different touches it has, e.g., normal, legato, super legato, etc. It's been a total change to my way of playing but quite welcome.

I'll apply all this to the aria and come back with it in a week or two.

Thanks for your encouragement.

[awesom_o]

It sounds like you are making good progress.

Expert pianists play the instrument not with two hands of 5 fingers each, but as one unit of 10 highly skilled and independent players!

How independent are your hands? Both in terms of their skill at the keyboard and away?
Have you ever tried juggling?

[devbanana]

It sounds like you are making good progress.

Expert pianists play the instrument not with two hands of 5 fingers each, but as one unit of 10 highly skilled and independent players!

How independent are your hands? Both in terms of their skill at the keyboard and away?
Have you ever tried juggling?

That is an interesting thought, something I've not thought of before.

I think I have very good hand independence. I work a lot on hands-separate practice, and mental play away from the piano. When I work on the voicing, I'm able to play any one of the voices apart from the others.

[awesom_o]

If you have very good hand independence and motor skills in general, juggling will come easily to you.

It is a really fun way to practice getting to know your body better, which will help you in music!

[kakeithewolf]

It sounds good to me, for piano. I just seem to cringe whenever I hear the Goldberg Variations on piano.

[devbanana]

It sounds good to me, for piano. I just seem to cringe whenever I hear the Goldberg Variations on piano.

I actually prefer it on the piano. I'm not a big fan of harpsichord.

[awesom_o]

I actually prefer it on the piano. I'm not a big fan of harpsichord.

Have you ever played a really great harpsichord?

[devbanana]

Have you ever played a really great harpsichord?

I've never played one at all, besides taking a look at the one my teacher has outside of her office. I'm just comparing the recordings I've heard.

[kakeithewolf]

I actually prefer it on the piano. I'm not a big fan of harpsichord.

I'm tempted to call you a heathen currently, but moron might suffice for now.

[devbanana]

I'm tempted to call you a heathen currently, but moron might suffice for now.

Ha. Everyone has their preferences.

[awesom_o]

I've never played one at all, besides taking a look at the one my teacher has outside of her office. I'm just comparing the recordings I've heard.

Ahhh... so in reality you can't actually say "I'm not a big fan of the harpsichord" with any actual authority.

What you COULD say instead is "I'm not a big fan of the recordings of harpsichord that I have heard so far"     

[kakeithewolf]

Ha. Everyone has their preferences.

Some people like blood sausage with prunes, but that doesn't make them right.

[devbanana]

Ahhh... so in reality you can't actually say "I'm not a big fan of the harpsichord" with any actual authority.

What you COULD say instead is "I'm not a big fan of the recordings of harpsichord that I have heard so far"     

I think they're one in the same. And yes I can say it with authority because being a “big fan of” is a subjective determination. As of this point today, I have not heard much music on the harpsichord that I've enjoyed, especially not as much as the piano.

It's just like me saying, “I like the violin,” though I've not touched one in my life. It's pretty obvious I mean I like the sound of it, which really is the most important.

I don't discount the possibility that it may grow on me in the future, but I've always been particular to the piano.

Anyway, I'm sorry if that makes me a “moron” in your eyes, in the words of a previous poster, but we all have our specific preferences and I'm not the first pianist I've heard to have this same opinion. I have other preferences, such as avoiding Glenn Gould's recordings like the plague.

[awesom_o]

I think they're one in the same.

I used to not like the harpsichord before I tried a really good one. In fact, I used to not like Baroque music in general!

I only played Bach and Scarlatti because I "had to" for exams and teachers!

Since then I became really interested in the Baroque, and have studied the music of many different Baroque masters on various instruments, including voice, cello, and recorder.

The more time I spent studying the Baroque, the more deeply interested in the Baroque keyboard instruments I became!

I still love to play Baroque music on the modern piano, but I can't wait to own a harpsichord!

They are extremely fun and rewarding to play! Every single note has a magical life of its own, and there are all sorts of things you can do to change the actual tone itself, especially on a double-manual harpsichord!

[devbanana]

I used to not like the harpsichord before I tried a really good one. In fact, I used to not like Baroque music in general!

I only played Bach and Scarlatti because I "had to" for exams and teachers!

Since then I became really interested in the Baroque, and have studied the music of many different Baroque masters on various instruments, including voice, cello, and recorder.

The more time I spent studying the Baroque, the more deeply interested in the Baroque keyboard instruments I became!

I still love to play Baroque music on the modern piano, but I can't wait to own a harpsichord!

They are extremely fun and rewarding to play! Every single note has a magical life of its own, and there are all sorts of things you can do to change the actual tone itself, especially on a double-manual harpsichord!

I understand what you mean. I am also growing to really appreciate baroque music. I love anything from Scarlatti, and the Goldberg Variations are just wonderful. I'm also getting Bach's Partita No. 6 to learn, as I've heard recordings of it that I really enjoy.

Tastes do change. When I was younger I hated Mozart. Now I'm learning several of his sonatas (k. 331 and k. 332).

I will be open to what you said. For now I really don't have access to a harpsichord. My teacher is thinking of showing me one to see what the style is so I can transfer that better to the piano, so that will be interesting. She's told me a lot about how they work though.

[awesom_o]

How old are you, devbanana?

When I was a child, I really didn't like Mozart too much. I started to like him more around age 12, when I started playing a few more of his pieces. But still, I wasn't a big fan.
Then around age 17, I had to play a full Sonata, and I started to like him a bit more. Still though, I would prefer to be working on something by Rachmaninoff or Chopin.

At age 19, another teacher made me learn another full Mozart Sonata. This time, I really started to like it.

Now I am 25, and I have played many more of Mozart's works. The more I play his works, the more I love him and deeply respect his genius. My only real issue with Mozart is that he didn't take the cello seriously. As a cellist, that makes me really sad!

There are so many composers who I have warmed to in a similar fashion as I got older!

Your teacher is wise to wish to show you a harpsichord! Learning how to play them can only improve your musicianship!

The piano is an incredible vehicle for which to display musicianship, but not enough people approach it seriously in that way!

[devbanana]

How old are you, devbanana?

When I was a child, I really didn't like Mozart too much. I started to like him more around age 12, when I started playing a few more of his pieces. But still, I wasn't a big fan.
Then around age 17, I had to play a full Sonata, and I started to like him a bit more. Still though, I would prefer to be working on something by Rachmaninoff or Chopin.

At age 19, another teacher made me learn another full Mozart Sonata. This time, I really started to like it.

Now I am 25, and I have played many more of Mozart's works. The more I play his works, the more I love him and deeply respect his genius. My only real issue with Mozart is that he didn't take the cello seriously. As a cellist, that makes me really sad!

There are so many composers who I have warmed to in a similar fashion as I got older!

Your teacher is wise to wish to show you a harpsichord! Learning how to play them can only improve your musicianship!

The piano is an incredible vehicle for which to display musicianship, but not enough people approach it seriously in that way!

I'm 25, the same age as you.

I didn't have the most wide-ranging piano training as a child. I started at the age of 5, and I think around 10-11 I learned the Mozart K. 309. At the time I did not like it very much. When I was 11 I got a new piano teacher, and she was great, but we primarily worked on romantic pieces, and later on a few late romantic/20th century. I guess we did some classical also with Beethoven, though it wasn't until years later I realized Beethoven was technically in the classical period.

Once I was in college we did more of a range of pieces, and I came to enjoy Bach a lot more. I learned the prelude to his English Suite No. 2 BWV 807, and thought it was beautiful. Later I also learned the Italian Concerto, only the first movement though unfortunately (I might correct that this year). I think we did a Mozart piece though I don't remember what it was now. Most of my work though was still romantic, doing some Rachmaninoff (Polichinelle, Op. 3 No. 4), and the major work went to a piano concerto I was learning (Saint-Saëns Piano Concerto No. 2).

Anyway now I'm out of college and have the freedom to explore music a lot more. In college everything went into preparing for the juries at the end of the semester, so we focused heavily on 3-4 pieces. Now I'm learning a range of pieces, anywhere from pretty easy (level 6, learning Chopin Waltz Op. 69 No. 2 for my wife), up to very difficult (Bach Goldberg, Partita No. 6, Chopin Sonata No. 2). I enjoy it more this way; it helps me to have a range of styles at my disposal, and it widens my focus a lot more.

I guess my point in this was, only this year have I come to appreciate Mozart more, and various other styles. I love my current teacher's way of teaching because she explains why things should be played a certain way. I just finished Mozart K. 331, and she told me a lot about the pianos during Mozart's time. She showed me a recording of a piano with the janissary stops, to demonstrate how the Rondo Alla Turca should be played. Just a few examples.

[gvans]

Re the Harpsichord: I confess I was not a great fan of the harpsichord myself, until I heard Elliott Carter's Double Concerto for Piano and Harpsichord. If you don't know it, check it out. Not in the least bit Baroque, yet fascinating.

Still, I think the modern piano way outdoes the harpsichord, just as the modern cello way outdoes the viola da gamba. The ability to control nuance and volume with each note checkmates the plucked, uni-volume tones emanating from any harpsichord.

My guess is that if J.S. Bach could hear his works played on a modern piano, he would agree in spades, in spite of his critical remarks to Gottfried Sillberman re the piano-maker's version of Cristofiori's new-fangled instrument. My guess--and it is only a guess--is Bach would welcome and prefer the playing of his works on the modern piano over the harpsichord.

At any rate, good luck with your ambitious project playing the Goldberg Variations. Once you get them wired, I look forward to hearing you play Beethoven's Diabelli Variations and Brahms' Variations on a Theme by Handel.

That would be one holy Trifecta, which I would venture few have done.

[awesom_o]

Still, I think the modern piano way outdoes the harpsichord, just as the modern cello way outdoes the viola da gamba. The ability to control nuance and volume with each note checkmates the plucked, uni-volume tones emanating from any harpsichord.

The harpsichord and the piano are extremely different instruments, and should not be compared!
Likewise, the viola da gamba and the cello are very different instruments, and also should not be compared!

It is best to appreciate the sound of both instruments, and to develop a type of technique that allows you to go back and forth from one instrument to the other without difficulty!

[nick]

Overall I like it, but the main drawback for me is the uneven tempo. Sometimes I did not feel the pulse anymore, didn't know where it went. Not saying rubato is not needed. Nice clarity.

Nick

[devbanana]

Overall I like it, but the main drawback for me is the uneven tempo. Sometimes I did not feel the pulse anymore, didn't know where it went. Not saying rubato is not needed. Nice clarity.

Nick

Thank you. I will definitely work on the tempo.