nonlegato with pedal

[drazh]

hi
please explain me if we press the right pedal what is the diference between  playing legato and nonlegato?
thanks

[falala]

Technically no difference. If you have the pedal down then it's impossible to play non-legato, by definition.

The only slight caveat to that is that with the piano, the subjective impression of legato is dependent upon phrasing and dynamics as well as note joins. Because each pitch has to start with an attack, we can't do a true legato consisting of pitches changing within a single dynamic envelope, like string or wind instruments can.

So we put a lot of effort into gradations of dynamics to focus the listener's attention on the musical line rather than the individual notes, and this is perceived as a greater sense of legato. When playing with the pedal down we can either still do that, or approach the notes as separate entities not connected by any smooth gradation of dynamic - in which case they will give less impression of legato.

It's all smoke and mirrors really. Dynamics on the piano often compensates for the innate limitations of legato.

[awesom_o]

Technically no difference.

Look carefully inside the piano. Try playing legato without the pedal. Try playing nonlegato without the pedal. Then try playing nonlegato with the pedal. Then try playing legato with the pedal. You will find there are differences!

[brogers70]

Look carefully inside the piano. Try playing legato without the pedal. Try playing nonlegato without the pedal. Then try playing nonlegato with the pedal. Then try playing legato with the pedal. You will find there are differences!

Yes, and falala explained those differences just fine in the part of her post which you did not quote. It's trivially easy to dig through a post and find a sentence to disagree with, but it's not terribly helpful.

[awesom_o]

Yes, and falala explained those differences just fine in the part of her post which you did not quote.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. 

There are quite a few differences falala made no mention of.

[faulty_damper]

There is, in fact a difference, albeit a slight one.  Non legato with the dampers requires even percussion of the keys so that there is no noticeable beat, almost like accenting each note.  Legato with pedal only requires an accent on the downbeat, though this would depend on the phrasing.

[falala]

Look carefully inside the piano. Try playing legato without the pedal. Try playing nonlegato without the pedal. Then try playing nonlegato with the pedal. Then try playing legato with the pedal. You will find there are differences!

I'm not sure what your point is or what exactly you're disagreeing with.

It is technically impossible to play "non-legato" with the pedal down. Non-legato means the notes are not joined; each note ends before the next note begins. With the pedal down, this is simply physically impossible to do. So the sonic effect of the following:

1. Play a C. Let the key up. Then play a D, and:

2. Play a C, continue to hold the key down while you play a D

is exactly the same. The mechanism and physics of the piano are such that they can't be different.

The only difference that can exist is in relative dynamics of different notes, and how this focuses the listener's attention more or less on the sense of line.

I hope this is clearer.

[falala]

There is, in fact a difference, albeit a slight one.  Non legato with the dampers requires even percussion of the keys so that there is no noticeable beat, almost like accenting each note.  Legato with pedal only requires an accent on the downbeat, though this would depend on the phrasing.

I'm not sure of the point here either. You seem to be saying that "non legato with the dampers" is different from "legato with pedal only". Which is unquestionably, and trivially, true.

[faulty_damper]

I'm not sure of the point here either. You seem to be saying that "non legato with the dampers" is different from "legato with pedal only". Which is unquestionably, and trivially, true.

I'm not sure what you mean here, either.   It seems like you are referring to my statements being semantically different.  Anyway, I hope I was clear that it's a technical difference which results in a musical difference that can actually be heard.  I do not agree that it's smoke and mirrors, because it isn't.

[awesom_o]

I'm not sure what your point is or what exactly you're disagreeing with.

The point I made is that playing nonlegato with the dampers raised produces a different result then when you play legato with the dampers raised. By looking at the dampers and playing both legato and nonlegato with the damper pedal depressed, you can ascertain this!

[falala]

I'm not sure what you mean here, either.  It seems like you are referring to my statements being semantically different.  Anyway, I hope I was clear that it's a technical difference which results in a musical difference that can actually be heard.  I do not agree that it's smoke and mirrors, because it isn't.

A technical difference between what and what? That's what wasn't clear.

If you mean there's a technical difference between playing legato with the pedal down, and playing non-legato with the pedal down, then you are wrong. What is happening in terms of the action of hammers and dampers on strings is the same.

As for "a musical difference that can actually be heard", there may well be one when you play an entire phrase in context this way, but it must by necessity be due to other factors than pure legato, such as the relative loudness of the notes experienced as a phrase. In terms of legato itself, it is physically impossible for the SAME set of actions in the mechanism (hammer strikes string > string continues to vibrate while hammer strikes next string) to produce different results.

It seems to me quite reasonable that if you play a series of notes with a legato hand action (ie, each finger waiting on the key until the next key is played), you are more likely to play those notes with a connected sense of weight and dynamic that results in the impression of a phrase. OTOH if you play each one separated by removal of finger from the keyboard, you are less likely to get that impression.

Technically speaking that's dynamics, not legato. Although as I said above in piano playing, the first often compensates for the limitations of the second.

[falala]

The point I made is that playing nonlegato with the dampers raised produces a different result then when you play legato with the dampers raised. By looking at the dampers and playing both legato and nonlegato with the damper pedal depressed, you can ascertain this!

But the only difference is that the hammers only fall a short way off the strings in one case, whereas they fall all the way back to their original position in the other. Given that they have left the string and it is free to vibrate in both cases (since there is no damper action), this is not a difference that can have any effect upon the sound.

If you want to look at it that way then we don't even need to look inside the piano. Of course there's a "difference" - just look at the keys. In one case the key comes up, in the other it doesn't. But that's just inherent in the question. The question was about whether this makes any difference to the legato. The answer is that it doesn't.

[nyiregyhazi]

But the only difference is that the hammers only fall a short way off the strings in one case, whereas they fall all the way back to their original position in the other. Given that they have left the string and it is free to vibrate in both cases (since there is no damper action), this is not a difference that can have any effect upon the sound.

If you want to look at it that way then we don't even need to look inside the piano. Of course there's a "difference" - just look at the keys. In one case the key comes up, in the other it doesn't. But that's just inherent in the question. The question was about whether this makes any difference to the legato. The answer is that it doesn't.

Sorry, but you're missing the point.

Get a top virtuoso who is renowned for musicianship too to play the  melody from the middle movement of rachmaninoff 2.make them play it pizzicato into the pedal and see how happy about it they are. They won't be happy. If it's about intensity alone, this means that the virtuoso can't control his intensity when playing pizzicato. Far more credible to realise that the action and keybed thud behave differently enough to alter the tone if you ask me. It's a real stretch to assume these issues occur silently. There are illusions certainly, but it's a very big stretch to assume there are no literal differences in sound too.

Interestingly, I'm not aware of even one of the many dubious experiments that supposedly disprove tone involving the pedal.

[brogers70]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that everyone posting here actually agrees that given a score containing an indication to use the pedal and staccato marks over a phrase that one should do both. Use the pedal and use a staccato articulation. And if you do that, you will find that it sounds different than if you (1) use a staccato articulation without holding the pedal down or (2) use a legato articulation while holding the pedal down or (3) use a legato articulation without holding the pedal down.

It is puzzling the first time you see such a notation, but if you do the experiment you find that it makes sense.

[drazh]

non legato is not stacato.
and legato with pedal is diferent from legato without pedal.

[falala]

Sorry, but you're missing the point.

Get a top virtuoso who is renowned for musicianship too to play the  melody from the middle movement of rachmaninoff 2.make them play it pizzicato into the pedal and see how happy about it they are. They won't be happy. If it's about intensity alone, this means that the virtuoso can't control his intensity when playing pizzicato.

No, it doesn't. All it means is that the way they have developed their techniques and approach is such that they find it much easier to control intensity from a phrasing POV when they play legato than when they play staccato. That's completely unremarkable.

Far more credible to realise that the action and keybed thud behave differently enough to alter the tone if you ask me.

I don't know where keybed thud comes into it since we're not even talking about different speeds of keypress or different control of weight here - all we're talking about is legato. You could play legato notes louder OR softer, with more OR less acceleration etc. etc. than staccato ones. I suppose you could consider the possibility of playing staccato preceded by a huge amount of lift away from the keyboard, which wouldn't be possible legato, but we weren't being that specific.

What we're talking about here is not the beginning of the note, but the end. Not how the key is pressed, but when it is released.

If the pedal is down, then when the key is released can make no earthly difference to anything. That is a simple physical fact of sound and mechanism.

Interestingly, I'm not aware of even one of the many dubious experiments that supposedly disprove tone involving the pedal.

The question here is not about tone. It's about legato.

[faulty_damper]

A technical difference between what and what? That's what wasn't clear.

If you mean there's a technical difference between playing legato with the pedal down, and playing non-legato with the pedal down, then you are wrong. What is happening in terms of the action of hammers and dampers on strings is the same.

As for "a musical difference that can actually be heard", there may well be one when you play an entire phrase in context this way, but it must by necessity be due to other factors than pure legato, such as the relative loudness of the notes experienced as a phrase. In terms of legato itself, it is physically impossible for the SAME set of actions in the mechanism (hammer strikes string > string continues to vibrate while hammer strikes next string) to produce different results.

It seems to me quite reasonable that if you play a series of notes with a legato hand action (ie, each finger waiting on the key until the next key is played), you are more likely to play those notes with a connected sense of weight and dynamic that results in the impression of a phrase. OTOH if you play each one separated by removal of finger from the keyboard, you are less likely to get that impression.

Technically speaking that's dynamics, not legato. Although as I said above in piano playing, the first often compensates for the limitations of the second.

Um.... this is what I said:
"Non legato with the dampers requires even percussion of the keys so that there is no noticeable beat, almost like accenting each note.  Legato with pedal only requires an accent on the downbeat, though this would depend on the phrasing."

You say there is no difference because you only refer to the strings freely vibrating.  However, in musical terms, there is a noticeable difference because of the reasons stated. The technique doesn't matter to achieve such a tone as long as it is musically perceptible.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, it doesn't. All it means is that the way they have developed their techniques and approach is such that they find it much easier to control intensity from a phrasing POV when they play legato than when they play staccato. That's completely unremarkable.

I don't know where keybed thud comes into it since we're not even talking about different speeds of keypress or different control of weight here - all we're talking about is legato. You could play legato notes louder OR softer, with more OR less acceleration etc. etc. than staccato ones. I suppose you could consider the possibility of playing staccato preceded by a huge amount of lift away from the keyboard, which wouldn't be possible legato, but we weren't being that specific.

What we're talking about here is not the beginning of the note, but the end. Not how the key is pressed, but when it is released.

If the pedal is down, then when the key is released can make no earthly difference to anything. That is a simple physical fact of sound and mechanism.

The question here is not about tone. It's about legato.

If we're talking about pizzicato, the depression and release are one and the same. It's at this point that the internal mechanism is at its noisiest if you let the hammer fall right back down and let the springs throw the key right back up. A slower release will do that more quietly. And performing the release as another note begins will help to hide action noises.

And it really is remarkable if you are suggesting that the only problem with playing pizzicato into the pedal is tonal control. When you presume it's only about intensity, that literally means that either a virtuoso should be able to sound the same as when playing legato, or that they have no fine control over how much volume they produce in pizzicato playing in general.

Your argument is based ignoring all factors other than the string. If you want to do that, you have to first prove that all other factors are literally silent ones, or that they are impossible to detect. You can't found an argument on casual simplifications of variables. I assure you that these factors are audible when you do a really short staccato into an open pedal. You can fake legato when doing slow controlled releases. But sharp fast release of a key is perfectly audible in many situations, pedal or not.

[j_menz]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that everyone posting here actually agrees

That rarely prevents arguments. 

Can I throw an additional spanner into the furious agreement. The RH pedal is not an on/off switch, and should not bee seen as normally functioning as such, with some mysterious half pedalling a rarefied and occasional option. It has gradations. Use them.

[falala]

Your argument is based ignoring all factors other than the string. If you want to do that, you have to first prove that all other factors are literally silent ones, or that they are impossible to detect.

No, I don't have to do any such thing to address the question OF THE OP.

The problem here is that you are talking about all kinds of other things extraneous to the question. There is a huge variety of approaches to the key possible in both staccato and legato playing. There can be huge differences in weight, acceleration, key thump and whatever else you want to bring into it. Since those things are VARIABLES in BOTH cases, it's completely ridiculous to try and squeeze them into this argument as if they are constants affecting THE LEGATO in a predictable way that we can then compare.

You can play staccato with greater key thump than legato, and YOU CAN ALSO PLAY LEGATO WITH GREATER KEY THUMP THAN STACCATO. The OP didn't say anything about what dynamic he was talking about, what kind of arm weight or anything else. In fact he's since clarified that he wasn't even referring to staccato (let alone "pizzicato"), he was only referring to "non-legato".

The ONLY variable that the OP specified, and thus the only thing we are comparing here, is whether the keys, after being played, are held until the next keypress or not. All of the other stuff you insist on introducing here is just a mass of irrelevance. If you want to compare the effects of various specific actions, then we can do that. But it's another thread. This one is about legato.

How long you hold the key down after striking it makes no difference to the sound when the pedal is down. That is a simple acoustic and mechanical fact. It's a fact completely separate from what's involved in striking the key in the first place.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, I don't have to do any such thing to address the question OF THE OP.

The problem here is that you are talking about all kinds of other things extraneous to the question. There is a huge variety of approaches to the key possible in both staccato and legato playing. There can be huge differences in weight, acceleration, key thump and whatever else you want to bring into it. Since those things are VARIABLES in BOTH cases, it's completely ridiculous to try and squeeze them into this argument as if they are constants affecting THE LEGATO in a predictable way that we can then compare.

You can play staccato with greater key thump than legato, and YOU CAN ALSO PLAY LEGATO WITH GREATER KEY THUMP THAN STACCATO. The OP didn't say anything about what dynamic he was talking about, what kind of arm weight or anything else. In fact he's since clarified that he wasn't even referring to staccato (let alone "pizzicato"), he was only referring to "non-legato".

The ONLY variable that the OP specified, and thus the only thing we are comparing here, is whether the keys, after being played, are held until the next keypress or not. All of the other stuff you insist on introducing here is just a mass of irrelevance. If you want to compare the effects of various specific actions, then we can do that. But it's another thread. This one is about legato.

How long you hold the key down after striking it makes no difference to the sound when the pedal is down. That is a simple acoustic and mechanical fact. It's a fact completely separate from what's involved in striking the key in the first place.

My post wasn't in response to a narrow or restricted interpretation of the original post. It was in response to the follow up of what you claimed to be absolute facts, based on incomplete consideration of relevant information.

Play pizzicato into a depressed pedal and you'll quickly discover that the premise that you put out is simply cobblers. There are other factors than volume, even when the pedal stays firmly down. The fine details are a separate issue which is very much open to debate. The problem is that you tried to close down such debate outright based on a fallacious outright dismissal. But your simple minded assertion that only volume matters if the pedal is down and that duration of depression cannot possible account for changes to the tone is incorrect. Short sharp attacks make a different sound to sustained contacts. With your rule disproven, people can go on to explore the issues. I don't care to debate the smaller issues, as the important issue for me is simply that the duration of holding definably can change the sound at least some of the time, and that your claim to the contrary is therefore bogus. From there, the rest is a matter of experimenting with the knowledge that more than the instant at which a sound starts matters.

Before asserting something to be outright impossible, it pays to be extremely thorough in terms or what factors you consider. You can start with the fact that releasing a key sharply makes a notable sound, before asserting the nonsense that it makes no difference whether a key is held or released. The "fact" that you claim at the end would depend on the piano action being literally silent, which is a load of bull. Ignorance to a factor does not make it vanish and it makes a person look very silly when they simply ignore what has been brought to the table and merely repeat fallacious claims that are contradicted by new information, without dealing with it in their argument.

PS are you taking the basic beginners idea of legato as being two sounds with no gap? If so, it would explain your attitude. Good musicians see the concept of legato in terms of a lot more than notes without literal silence between. It's about how seamlessly notes are released too- which is why pizzicato into pedal never sounds genuinely legato.

[falala]

But your simple minded assertion that only volume matters if the pedal is down and that duration of depression cannot possible account for changes to the tone is incorrect.

Can you point out where in this thread I made that assertion? Then maybe I'll read the rest of your post.

Dude, I understand your bitterness from the last time we discussed that subject, I really do. But that's no reason to go trying to force the issue into threads about other subjects. One of the problems then was that you didn't actually read the posts you were supposedly responding to and thus completely misunderstood them, in some cases not just changing but actually reversing their meaning. Since you seem determined to get back on the same course here - arguing not with what anyone said but with whatever strawman you happen to want to put in their place - I'm sure you'll understand if I leave you to enjoy your little indulgence without me.

In the meantime, how long you hold the key down after depressing it still makes no difference to the legato, when the pedal is down. No matter how many times you change the subject.

[nyiregyhazi]

Can you point out where in this thread I made that assertion? Then maybe I'll read the rest of your post.

Dude, I understand your bitterness from the last time we discussed that subject, I really do. But that's no reason to go trying to force the issue into threads about other subjects. One of the problems then was that you didn't actually read the posts you were supposedly responding to and thus completely misunderstood them, in some cases not just changing but actually reversing their meaning. Since you seem determined to get back on the same course here - arguing not with what anyone said but with whatever strawman you happen to want to put in their place - I'm sure you'll understand if I leave you to enjoy your little indulgence without me.

In the meantime, how long you hold the key down after depressing it still makes no difference to the legato, when the pedal is down. No matter how many times you change the subject.

Pull your fingers out of your own ears and stop repeating the same obsolete fallacy like an ignoramus.

I'll repeat AGAIN - letting go a key is not silent, especially when done sharply. Play a key silently and listen to the effect when releasing. Preferably with pedal down. Note how you can soften the thud with slower release. And consider that you can mask it when releasing as another key sounds.

If you want to just repeat the same obsolete guff about how the length of depression supposedly cannot change the sound then don't bother replying. You've repeated that fallacy ad infinitum, so try following up on the evidence I've given to the contrary, if you want to take this further. There's a reason why good musicians care about the release of notes even with the pedal down. It's not a purely subjective issue or a matter solely of illusions. If you think legato is merely about not having silence between sounds, you don't understand the concept of legato. Noises interrupt legato.

PS I don't even recall your posts from other threads. I'm speaking simply of fallacies portrayed as absolute facts in this thread. You've implied over and over that only dampers and the instant of hammer on string affects sound. You are totally wrong to believe so and cannot construct a valid argument based on willful ignorance towards genuine variables. All that achieves is a demonstration that you are not willing to consider new information if you've already made your mind up.

[nyiregyhazi]

The point I made is that playing nonlegato with the dampers raised produces a different result then when you play legato with the dampers raised. By looking at the dampers and playing both legato and nonlegato with the damper pedal depressed, you can ascertain this!

Just curious- what are you referring to? I'm not clear what visible issue would be seen in the dampers, although the hammer should be pretty obvious. What are you saying should be seen in the dampers?

Incidentally, I heard Earl wild suggest that releasing a key makes the sound louder in big playing. He claimed that letting the hammer away allows the string to vibrate more. I'm not aware of any credible reason as to why a string would vibrate less with a hammer a few cm away (which shouldn't do anything to damp vibrations) than when it goes back down, although I don't know enough to conclusively rule out the idea that sound waves are subtly altered. However, the return of a key certainly makes subtle but audible noises.

[falala]

I'll repeat AGAIN - letting go a key is not silent, especially when done sharply. Play a key silently and listen to the effect when releasing. Preferably with pedal down. Note how you can soften the thud with slower release. And consider that you can mask it when releasing as another key sounds.

Actually that's a good point. I just tried out a few phrases legato and non-legato with the pedal down and could hear the effect of the key release when I listened for it. I'm not sure I hear it as part of the actual sound of the strings though - it's more like it's a separate instrument, like a little soft drum playing along with the piano.

Clearly this doesn't affect the legato of the transition from one pitched note to the next, but it may well effect the listener's perception of legato psychologically - by increasing the sense of extraneous rhythmic activity going on in the background, it could well reduce the focus on the line and phrasing.

Do you know if there's has been any tests or research into listeners' perceptions of this? I'd be interested.

If you want to just repeat the same obsolete guff about how the length of depression supposedly cannot change the sound then don't bother replying.

Well since I never said that, I'm hardly going to be able to "repeat" it, even if I want to, am I? 

There's a reason why good musicians care about the release of notes even with the pedal down.

Of course. In fact I gave one possible reason for that upthread. The reason may not be what you think it is, that's all.

[nyiregyhazi]

Actually that's a good point. I just tried out a few phrases legato and non-legato with the pedal down and could hear the effect of the key release when I listened for it. I'm not sure I hear it as part of the actual sound of the strings though - it's more like it's a separate instrument, like a little soft drum playing along with the piano.

Clearly this doesn't affect the legato of the transition from one pitched note to the next, but it may well effect the listener's perception of legato psychologically - by increasing the sense of extraneous rhythmic activity going on in the background, it could well reduce the focus on the line and phrasing.

Do you know if there's has been any tests or research into listeners' perceptions of this? I'd be interested.

Well since I never said that, I'm hardly going to be able to "repeat" it, even if I want to, am I?  

Of course. In fact I gave one possible reason for that upthread. The reason may not be what you think it is, that's all.

I never argued against the more subjective issues you raised. I argued against your fallacious portrayal of them as being the only possible way to account for every part of the whole picture.

Obviously if you take legato as meaning no silence between notes, it's impossible not to do legato when the pedal is down. But no serious musicians define it from that simplistic viewpoint. That's how you describe it to a five year old, not an accurate description of musical legato as a concept. And that was clearly not what the poster meant, unless you take him for a complete fool. So, clearly we are defining legato in a proper musical sense, not merely whether there are literal stops in sound or not. So noises of keys jerking upwards certainly matter. Whether these affect the strings or is a non issue, if you consider that the ear merely hears a resultant whole and cannot segregate noises from such close sources outright. If a pianist keeps farting throughout a phrase, nobody will tell whether notes struck at the same time were played beautifully or not. Likewise, if the pianist makes sounds of keys jerking up sharply, his legato suffers.

[awesom_o]

 What are you saying should be seen in the dampers?

When I play legato with the damper pedal depressed, the act of playing legato keeps the dampers quite a bit farther away from the ringing strings than they would be if they were played non-legato.

This has quite a noticeable effect on the sustain.

[abielikesu]

Interesting topic and discussion.  I thought staccato with peddal was not noticeable,  until my son started learning Liadov Music Box. It has plenty of pedalling throughout,  but the marking at the beginning says always staccatto. It was a bit challenging to say the least.

[falala]

When I play legato with the damper pedal depressed, the act of playing legato keeps the dampers quite a bit farther away from the ringing strings than they would be if they were played non-legato.

This has quite a noticeable effect on the sustain.

How on Earth can it?

The dampers are either touching the strings or they're not. Being near something that is vibrating, without touching it, doesn't affect how long it will vibrate for.

[awesom_o]

The dampers are either touching the strings or they're not.

I'm sorry, but that is simply not the case. There are many different levels of dampness available, depending on how far the pedal is depressed. It is not an "on/off switch"!

On a good grand piano, there are at least 8 different levels available!

On a good upright there are about half of that, which is still quite a few when you can use them well.

[brogers70]

I'm sorry, but that is simply not the case. There are many different levels of dampness available, depending on how far the pedal is depressed. It is not an "on/off switch"!

On a good grand piano, there are at least 8 different levels available!

On a good upright there are about half of that, which is still quite a few when you can use them well.

So you are saying that with the damper pedal partially depressed, playing legato will keep the dampers for the notes you are playing farther from the strings than if you played non-legato. That sounds fine.

Like falala, I thought you meant that with the damper pedal fully down, and the dampers not touching the strings at all, playing legato would keep the dampers even farther away. At least on my (grand) piano, fully depressing the damper pedal lifts the dampers slightly farther away from the strings than pressing the key.

[falala]

I'm sorry, but that is simply not the case. There are many different levels of dampness available, depending on how far the pedal is depressed. It is not an "on/off switch"!

On a good grand piano, there are at least 8 different levels available!

On a good upright there are about half of that, which is still quite a few when you can use them well.

It is of course possible to half-pedal or flutter-pedal, but that's a different issue. If the pedal is depressed far enough that the dampers are not touching the strings then playing legato to keep them even further away than they would be if played non-legato cannot make a blind bit of difference. From the point that they are not touching, they ARE an "on-off" switch. That switch is set to off, and it cannot be MORE off.

Your original statement was:

When I play legato with the damper pedal depressed, the act of playing legato keeps the dampers quite a bit farther away from the ringing strings than they would be if they were played non-legato.

This has quite a noticeable effect on the sustain.

If all you're saying here is that playing legato rather than non-legato makes a difference when the pedal is NOT depressed far enough to fully remove the dampers from the strings, then of course that is true. That's completely uncontroversial, and irrelevant to the OP. Playing legato sounds different to playing non-legato, when the damper is free to (fully or partly) dampen the string. Well, duh. 

Once the pedal is depressed far enough to keep the dampers out of contact with the strings (which I'm pretty sure is what the OP meant; at least it seems to be what everyone on the thread has understood by it), then it can't make any difference whether the distance of that non-contact is 5mm or 5cm or anything else.

[awesom_o]

On my piano, holding a key down causes the damper on that note to remain higher above the string than the level of the rest of the dampers, even with the pedal fully depressed.

Additionally, releasing a key with the pedal down causes there to be a noticeable 'thunk' sound of the action returning to its default position.

The timbre of the sustained note is quite a bit different, I find, when you sustain it only with the pedal, and not with actual legato.

[falala]

On my piano, holding a key down causes the damper on that note to remain higher above the string than the level of the rest of the dampers, even with the pedal fully depressed.

Yes, but given that the rest of the dampers are off the strings, that won't make any difference to the sound. 

Additionally, releasing a key with the pedal down causes there to be a noticeable 'thunk' sound of the action returning to its default position.

Yes, as nyiregyhazi pointed out earlier, that could well make a difference. I haven't really looked into it but I agree that it seems to at least from the playing position. Not sure how much that thunk carries to the audience though. 

[awesom_o]

Yes, but given that the rest of the dampers are off the strings, that won't make any difference to the sound. 
 

Personally, I hear a big difference between legato with the pedal and non-legato with pedal, even when only one note is being played and compared, outside of any real musical context.

Playing staccato with the pedal down creates a sound that is more reminiscent of a gong, bell, or similar percussion instrument. The sound rings freely, but in a somewhat hollow-sounding way.

Playing legato with the pedal down creates a sound that, to my ears, is more reminiscent of a bowed string string instrument, where the player's physical contact with the tone is ongoing. The sound doesn't ring as freely as the gong-sound, but it seems to possess a more peculiar intensity of sustain.

[faulty_damper]

Awesom_O,

I fail to see mechanically how the distance between the damper and strings would make for a different sound.  However, I can see that the noise made when the keys strike the keybed would produce a percussive effect that is audible.  Some digital piano manufacturers include this percussive sound in the sampling to help produce a more realistic sound.  Since legato and staccato produces different key-keybed percussive sounds, this may, in fact, what you are referring to.

[falala]

Actually awesome I see that I've misread your posts:

On my piano, holding a key down causes the damper on that note to remain higher above the string than the level of the rest of the dampers, even with the pedal fully depressed.

I thought you were referring to the hammers, but I see now you are actually referring to the dampers.

When I put the pedal right down on my grand, all the dampers rise by an equal amount and stay there. Playing legato or non-legato makes no difference to the height of any individual damper. I'm pretty sure this is the case on all pianos - all grands, at least.

Is yours a grand or an upright? Does it have some strange individual mechanism, or something broken, that makes this happen?

Personally, I hear a big difference between legato with the pedal and non-legato with pedal, even when only one note is being played and compared, outside of any real musical context.

Well I see three possible reasons for that:

1. The effect of keythump we have already discussed. (This can be discounted by playing "relatively short" rather than "staccato" - ie, letting the key up gradually and silently. When I do this, I hear no difference whatsoever in an individual note after I have let the key up, from how it sounds if I keep the key down.)

2. There is something weird or broken about you particular piano mechanism (see above).

3. You are imagining it.

[awesom_o]

Awesom_O,

I fail to see mechanically how the distance between the damper and strings would make for a different sound. 

It's not a matter of "seeing". You have to listen!

[awesom_o]

Is yours a grand or an upright? Does it have some strange individual mechanism, or something broken, that makes this happen?

Well I see three possible reasons for that:

1. The effect of keythump we have already discussed. (This can be discounted by playing "relatively short" rather than "staccato" - ie, letting the key up gradually and silently. When I do this, I hear no difference whatsoever in an individual note after I have let the key up, from how it sounds if I keep the key down.)

2. There is something weird or broken about you particular piano mechanism (see above).

3. You are imagining it.

My piano is a Steinway grand. Nothing too weird or broken about it!

[falala]

Oh! OK then.

It would be interesting if someone who knows about different makes and designs of pianos could shed any light on this. It may well be that you're hearing something real but that it is caused by something that happens on your piano that doesn't happen on mine (mine's a Broadwood, nearly a hundred years old but in good nick).

Actually even if how you play the keys does affect the proximity of the dampers to the string when the pedal is down, I fail to see how that could affect the sound as long as they aren't touching. But as there's clearly something mechanical going on that's different from how my piano works, I'm willing to suspend judgment.

I was playing a show on a Steinway just yesterday and could have had a look. Now I won't be back there for a couple of months.

[faulty_damper]

Adding further to my statement about the keybed sound, there is also a sound created when the hammer is stopped by the back check.  In staccato, the hammer may not be stopped by the back check so no 'ctzh' sound is produced by leather stopping wood.  But in legato playing, it will definitely be there.