If we cut all of the forests on earth down

[m1469]

Melt all of the glaciers, kill off species of the ecosystem to the point of extinction, pollute our drinking water, are mindlessly exhausting the earth's resources, decide and allow for much of our own species to live in abject poverty, as a human family have no overly-apparent, immediate cause nor overriding purpose in existing here, and we are constantly at war with one another ...

What is essential about "saving" Classical Music and Piano Performance as it currently is?  So some people can have better math scores or be more relaxed (yes, I'm sure that's provable, extremely useful, and I definitely think about this while I am in a classroom, actually spending my life and education (which I am still paying for) teaching your children  )?  So some select few can live out a dream?  And for that matter, what is essential about feeling "passion" as an audience member during some elite musician's solo piano performance?

If we decide what matters to us while we are here, what is it about Classical (Piano) Music -a particular cultural practice out of many- that needs to be preserved and is so essential to humankind?

On the heels of yet another Opera House closing down ... so, so sad  .  Hey, come to think of it, those walls were closed to me anyway!    


*Goes to piano, plays scales and arpeggios, and reads through Bach Inventions and Sinfonias*

[timothy42b]

*Goes to piano,  reads through Bach Inventions and Sinfonias*

Good effort.

But you slowed down for the hard parts.

Try it again, with a metronome.   

[chewbacca_90]

Self-interest, simple as that. The same self-interest that sparks wars and pollution. The same self-interest that drives us to try and "save the planet". The same self-interest that pushes us to move forward and live every day, whether it's good or bad. Our existence has no greater purpose, yet we constantly ask ourselves about the meaning of life, in search of some sort of transcendence and impact in the greater scheme of things. The planet will keep on existing long after we're gone. Life will find its way through the rubble we'll leave behind. Personally, I like to think life's pure entertainment. Such being the case, I might as well make the best of it while I'm here. I'll look out for myself and those I hold dear. There is no point trying to change the course of humanity as a species, we're probably beyond salvation at this point. We're just one more step in the great stair of evolution, more than likely a failed one.

As to the moral question of preserving classical music amidst the cesspool of injustice we've created, I think it's useless. We all may love and hold it close to our heart and soul, but "saving it" strikes me as extremely self-righteous and self-important. One might argue classical music is timeless due to its emotional depth, and they might be right. It indeed has endured centuries of stylistic change, and probably will not be forgotten until time's up for mankind. Still, looking at the big picture, it will be gone alongside every other form of artistic expression we came up with. Storing music and other forms of human expression in probes that we send into outer space has the sole purpose of leaving our mark in this universe. Perhaps we want to leave testimony of not only our self-awareness and intelligence, but also our ability to feel emotion, to connect with the spiritual, the transcendent.

In practical terms, that is, for educational and therapeutical uses, I have nothing against its use and preservation. As you said yourself, it's been proven to work. Whether this helps raise moral awareness of our flaws as a species is something every educator, or therapist, will have to determine by themselves. Creating conscience is, after all, a dangerous endeavor. Doing so in an organized manner may awaken the spark of critical thinking that the groups of power have worked to keep dormant in the people since the early days of humankind. There's a lot of money and power on the line, and those who keep all the booty to themselves will not allow things to change, and that is one instrumental factor to our doom as a species.

Best,
Alex

[m1469]

Hey, Chewy, did you think I was looking for a Savior?   

[m1469]

Try it again, with a metronome.   

Actually, despite what anybody says - ANYBODY - I actually think that metronome practice is very important and valuable!

[chewbacca_90]

Hey, Chewy, did you think I was looking for a Savior?   

Not at all, dear m1469. Glad to see you're still around after all these years by the way.

I knew where you were coming from. My rant was more or less addressing the irony you proposed. TLDR: There is no real point in preserving classical music. The pretense to do so is but another display of the same self-interest that lead us nowhere as a species.

I basically agree with you, seeing you put saving in quotation marks, and questioning its moral transcendence. Unless I was mistaken about your point all along?

Best,
Alex

[m1469]

Not at all, dear m1469. Glad to see you're still around after all these years by the way.

I knew where you were coming from. My rant was more or less addressing the irony you proposed. TLDR: There is no real point in preserving classical music. The pretense to do so is but another display of the same self-interest that lead us nowhere as a species.

I basically agree with you, seeing you put saving in quotation marks, and questioning its moral transcendence. Unless I was mistaken about your point all along?

Best,
Alex

Hey, good thing I'm still around to hear of it!  

[chewbacca_90]

Hey, good thing I'm still around to hear of it!  

Why'd you edit your post? 

We may have conflicting interpretations on my use of the word "here" last post. I meant here as in this forum, not life. Regarding the issue of life's meaning, I think that's up to each of us to answer their own way, assuming we're even capable of that... I'm sure we've all had bullshit to up with, whether it served a greater purpose or not, up to you!

I can be quite the nihilist sometimes but do not take that as an aggression! In my very own way of seeing things, I don't really bother with the life's meaning self-enquiry. I am simply here, and I might as well make it worth my while. This, of course, does not mean you should see it the same way. I was merely expressing my own perception of life. If I did come across as a jerk, I apologize.

[timothy42b]

Actually, despite what anybody says - ANYBODY - I actually think that metronome practice is very important and valuable!

The metronome can anchor us to reality.  It's a good recalibration.

And, perhaps, you yourself may need that currently.  Metaphorically or not. 

[m1469]

The metronome can anchor us to reality.  It's a good recalibration.

And, perhaps, you yourself may need that currently.  Metaphorically or not.  

 

Seriously, do you people have only one gear to work with as the basis of teaching, learning, and "guiding"?

Push buttons, throw somebody's poop in their face, kick 'em while they're down, spin the world around and turn it upside down, push 'em in the water and make 'em sink or swim, everything boils down to Freud.  (Heck, that's life, baby.  It's just art, imitating life!) Make 'em really feel things and think things, that way, they can be an "artist"!  That's it?  Really?  OK, we're there.  Now what?  I don't believe that's all there is to it, but I think that's what you believe.  Do you think that's why I am living my life?  Why I am here on the forum?  What I am primarily motivated by?  It's not.  I understand the need to use the tools one has, and perhaps there is some kind of necessary evolution taking place.  I am not sure who to feel more sorry for, me because people believe they know something important about me after having deceived me and read something they think I cherish, or "you" because you actually live that way.  Perhaps I will not spend time feeling sorry for either of us.  There is a lot more to me, you know.  I don't expect for you to care about that, but there is.  Yes, I choose to believe there is something greater than those things taking place, and I am perfectly aware that I can't force somebody else to be part of that.

[oxy60]

You either like classical music or you don't. If you like it try to preserve it.

The problem with that opera company that is closing is that the casual patron couldn't buy a good ticket near the performance date. The better tickets were only offered to season subscribers. I paid $125   and sat in the LAST row!

[timothy42b]

Seriously, do you people have only one gear to work with as the basis of teaching, learning, and "guiding"?

m1469,
We aren't "you people" any more than you are the same as all other pianists.  We're all individuals, with varied backgrounds, experiences, skills, and expressive writing abilities.

That was quite a tantrum, by the way.  Happening a bit more often lately?

I'm an engineer; I handle construction, maintenance, environmental, that kind of thing.  And budget.  Arghh.  And budget.......But I wasn't always one.  In an earlier career I worked about ten years in mental health and did my MS in Clinical Psychology. 

The thought processes are quite different, and I can't easily switch gears, I would never hazard a diagnosis.  But it is evident that your charming cognitive looseness has deteriorated a bit lately, and I would encourage you to seek some counseling and, probably, medication.  I think your personal issues are interfering with your quality of life.
 

[gvans]

m1469, I love your philosophical posts and questions (as I recall, we also both have our mitts on a C-7). A resident of a  city with a soon-to-be defunct opera company (San Diego), I confess I've been a poor attendee. Years ago a friend edged me out in a concerto competition and took a job as their pianist, leaving me penniless in the sea fog.
Never forgave him or them. Totally irrational, of course...

In truth, I prefer chamber music and symphony to opera. I'm OK with listening to someone singing while they're dying as much as the next person, but I prefer the instrumental work of Brahms and Beethoven and Debussy and Carter and the rest. Can't help it, I'm not Italian.

To answer your many questions about the meaning of piano in a world subject to the second law of thermodynamics, I can only agree with Chewie, who seems to be saying we take ourselves far too seriously for a temporary species spiraling around a temporary sun while living on a temporary planet.

Is this nihilism, or realism? Not sure.

Perhaps we study and play piano to find the true meaning of life. Perhaps playing instrumental music works for us, by touching chords of emotions words cannot find. Perhaps playing piano enables us to forget things we have no control over, like the possible rekindling of the cold war and the threat of nuclear annihilation. Perhaps playing Chopin or Faure--or even Schumann (as the CIA now reports thalbergmad does in secret) is just plain fun.

Dunno.

[chewbacca_90]

To answer your many questions about the meaning of piano in a world subject to the second law of thermodynamics, I can only agree with Chewie, who seems to be saying we take ourselves far too seriously for a temporary species spiraling around a temporary sun while living on a temporary planet.

You nailed it, good sir. As for a label to this particular world view, I couldn't care less. Got too little time left in this reality to be thinking of a title for it. If anything, I feel it's liberating not to base our lives around a perceived meaning and/or the search for it.

Best,
Alex

[oxy60]

m1469, I love your philosophical posts and questions (as I recall, we also both have our mitts on a C-7). A resident of a  city with a soon-to-be defunct opera company (San Diego), I confess I've been a poor attendee. Years ago a friend edged me out in a concerto competition and took a job as their pianist, leaving me penniless in the sea fog.
Never forgave him or them. Totally irrational, of course...

In truth, I prefer chamber music and symphony to opera. I'm OK with listening to someone singing while they're dying as much as the next person, but I prefer the instrumental work of Brahms and Beethoven and Debussy and Carter and the rest. Can't help it, I'm not Italian.

To answer your many questions about the meaning of piano in a world subject to the second law of thermodynamics, I can only agree with Chewie, who seems to be saying we take ourselves far too seriously for a temporary species spiraling around a temporary sun while living on a temporary planet.

Is this nihilism, or realism? Not sure.

Perhaps we study and play piano to find the true meaning of life. Perhaps playing instrumental music works for us, by touching chords of emotions words cannot find. Perhaps playing piano enables us to forget things we have no control over, like the possible rekindling of the cold war and the threat of nuclear annihilation. Perhaps playing Chopin or Faure--or even Schumann (as the CIA now reports thalbergmad does in secret) is just plain fun.

Dunno.

The symphony thanks you.

All kidding aside, are you happy with the direction the City is headed? I personally would like fewer scandals. We seem to lurch from one to the other.

[m1469]

What I am interested in is actually pretty practical; I would like to know what, specifically, people are fighting for when they are fighting to save a symphony, for example, or to save a particular art form.  And I am putting it in context of the rest of the world because in this world resources are thought of as limited.  So, from my seemingly-limited pocket, if I had $60 that I felt like I wanted to spend to somehow "save" something or better my life, why would I spend it on a Shakespeare theatre ticket (for an example) vs. water purification?  Maybe it's up to my particular beliefs, likes, and dislikes, but what I am wondering is what musicians believe in so much so as to ask anybody else to make it a priority over a thousand seemingly more pressing issues in this world?  Why/how "should" this matter to other people in the world?

I am not actually arguing whether or not there is a point, nor am I saying that there is not.  I am simply digging into the minds and hearts of people who I believe have dedicated a large portion of their lives to something that I love.

[m1469]

I think your personal issues are interfering with your quality of life.

Somehow I think you are actually quite removed from my personal issues and quality of life and that you don't actually have any form of authority on how that's all going, no matter what you call yourself here.  Unless I missed the part where you are living with me day in and day out for years in a row ...

But, I have no ill feelings towards you  

[j_menz]

Some things make life possible. Others make it worthwhile.

[timothy42b]

 Unless I missed the part where you are living with me day in and day out for years in a row ...

m1469................6,358 posts later, we have ALL been living with you for years in a row. 

But, I have no ill feelings towards you  

I suspect insincerity. 

However, I am genuinely concerned for you.  You will remember that i stopped corresponding with susan when it became clear that she was not just eccentric but mentally ill.  If I am upsetting you I will withdraw from this interaction as well. 

[gapoc459]

Some things make life possible. Others make it worthwhile.

I was about to say something along these lines, but by the time I logged in you had written this. That's essentially all there is to it.

What makes you think that all those issues are objectively "more important" than music? I'm sure if you ask 100 people on the street whether they think a musician is more important than a doctor, at least 99 will look at you like you're crazy. But think about it this way: there's 7 billion lives in the world. All 7 billion of us will die (pretty soon, in the grand scheme of things), and all 7 billion of us will be replaced by 11-12 billion new organisms. Who cares if you save a life or two?

Of course I'm being too cynical here; but I would much rather spend my life doing something that I absolutely love, something that I know I can spend 14 hours a day on, something for which I am happy to spend my life attempting to share my love for with as many people as possible, as deeply as possible. Health makes life possible. Music (for me) makes it worthwhile.

As to the closing of the opera company? I don't think it makes any sense to lament. It's evolution. Survival of the fittest. Either the company was not managed correctly, or they simply were unable to engage the audience with the product that they believed in (probably a combination of both). Is it a flaw of the art form or rather of the audience? The only answer is yes. Regardless of whose fault it is, the point is, people are not sufficiently interested in the opera, essentially rendering it meaningless. If you truly believe in the supremacy of the art, you can try to educate people with what it takes to appreciate opera. In any case, the point is that if opera is failing to make people's lives "worthwhile" then, to put it bluntly, it does not deserve to survive. Somewhere, there is a flaw in the system, and it's our job to either accept it and move on, or try our best to find it and fix it. In any case is, once it's gone, it's gone.

[m1469]

m1469................6,358 posts later, we have ALL been living with you for years in a row.  
  

Then feel free to accurately reflect back to me what some of my current circumstances and challenges might be, as well as what you feel are practical footsteps I might take in order to work towards balancing my desires with what I feel has been forced upon me.

And I can't help but note that your comments regarding whether or not somebody is mentally stable are less than professional by mental health professional standards.  And, for that matter, less than friendlike by friendship standards, too.

I've been here for nearly 10 years, do you think that I have any brand new feelings or thoughts about this place and the people here?  So call me insincere if you'd like, but I think the fact that I've hung around speaks towards something that is anything but shallow and insincere, and if that is not clear and obvious to a person -any person- within a 1000 mile radius of a computer (or piano, for that matter), I do not consider it my own shortcoming at this point.

[m1469]

Some things make life possible. Others make it worthwhile.

I do not disagree with this, however, I do not feel that is specific enough.  Eating cheese seems to make my life worthwhile, too.  So does caring about the whole world and each moment of life (even though it actually hurts sometimes, too).  It is not just a matter of taking oneself "too" seriously, though I can grasp the concept as was expressed earlier.  It is that I take each moment of life as an opportunity, and even though my time, our time, is temporary here on earth, I believe we still have a fundamental being that may continue on ... indefinitely ... and it's difficult for me to willingly spend these "years" in idleness, not making the most of these opportunities for life to be fully experienced - and I'd like to spend these years growing in ways that aid me in not needing to repeat the process of learning the lessons I've worked (quite hard) to learn here.

What makes you think that all those issues are objectively "more important" than music?

Well, even though I could try to argue what is objectively more important, I won't because I can take this statement as is with your same reasoning.  They are "not" ... they are subjectively more important to many people, and that is a big part of my point.  Music is not objectively important in the world, though people who already love it treat it as though it is and should be.

I'm sure if you ask 100 people on the street whether they think a musician is more important than a doctor, at least 99 will look at you like you're crazy. But think about it this way: there's 7 billion lives in the world. All 7 billion of us will die (pretty soon, in the grand scheme of things), and all 7 billion of us will be replaced by 11-12 billion new organisms. Who cares if you save a life or two?

So, I will use your same reasoning, why would these 7 billion lives care about one or two people wanting to be a Classical Musician or a little, tiny art form in a sea of many subjectively more pressing and interesting forms of expressing and experiencing life?

Of course I'm being too cynical here; but I would much rather spend my life doing something that I absolutely love, something that I know I can spend 14 hours a day on, something for which I am happy to spend my life attempting to share my love for with as many people as possible, as deeply as possible.

OK.  I like it, of course, but in a very practical reality,

I would much rather spend my life doing something that I absolutely love

... so would I.  If you are a concert artist who is playing in my town, why would I spend a hard-earned $25 on a concert ticket and a precious couple of hours that I could use not working, to hear you play - at the expense of foregoing my own study (if I spend the money on you, I am not spending it on me)?  And I already love music and piano!  And more broadly, why should I sacrifice what is important to me (my own study, my own musical growth), in order to support a system of musicianship that does not somehow support my own musicianship?

I have my own reasons for asking these questions, but I doubt I am the only one in the world and it seems pertinent since apparently the arts are not objectively supported.  As a musician myself, if I am going to play for somebody, I find it important to consider what it is that I am hoping to "accomplish" by doing so.

[gapoc459]

m1469, for some reason I am under the impression that we actually think the same thing, we just don't understand each other's arguments. Could you summarize in as few sentences as possible what it is exactly that is bugging you?

Your question originally was: "What is essential about saving classical music [as it currently is]?" It's entirely subjective. Classical music is something that enriches us. If it doesn't enrich enough people (or the right people...), it will not survive. Simple as that. We who care about it enough can try to make more people care, but ultimately I think it's more about money in our pockets. Think about it. If somebody really wants to listen to music, they will be able to do so. Maybe people of San Diego will not be able to go to the opera so easily, but that is a result of their not supported the company.

Obviously what I'm saying can be self-contradictory on an individual basis, but on a societal level: if people don't care, it doesn't matter. Like, it just doesn't seem like there's anything to be distressed about besides our own bank accounts.

[m1469]

m1469, for some reason I am under the impression that we actually think the same thing, we just don't understand each other's arguments. Could you summarize in as few sentences as possible what it is exactly that is bugging you?

Your question originally was: "What is essential about saving classical music [as it currently is]?" It's entirely subjective. Classical music is something that enriches us. If it doesn't enrich enough people (or the right people...), it will not survive. Simple as that. We who care about it enough can try to make more people care, but ultimately I think it's more about money in our pockets. Think about it. If somebody really wants to listen to music, they will be able to do so. Maybe people of San Diego will not be able to go to the opera so easily, but that is a result of their not supported the company.

Obviously what I'm saying can be self-contradictory on an individual basis, but on a societal level: if people don't care, it doesn't matter. Like, it just doesn't seem like there's anything to be distressed about besides our own bank accounts.

For people who care about it, when times are good anyway, of course we just go with the flow of feeling as though it is enriching our lives, end of story.  I would like to know something more detailed than that, in how it does.  Feel free to answer in your own subjective way!  But, I actually suspect you know what I am asking.

If I am fighting to save a music program in a University, do you think I will go to the board and say "save music, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, because music is subjectively enriching our own (not yours though!) lives!!"  Nope, not going to happen.  
 
Gotta run!

[Bob]

What university's music program is going under?  They're not going to just downsize a bit?

[m1469]

Who can open their heart in a way that makes me feel as though my loneliest cave is full of light and love?  Hmmm? Who can open their heart in a way that makes me feel like the sorrow I feel over the loved one I just lost is not going to be the death of me, too?  Or as though in the midst of all of the troubles in the world, there is real and tangible peace?  That there is hope and purpose?  Who can open their heart in a way that is capable of making a homeless person feel like it matters where they sleep at night?   That somebody, anybody, knows they even exist?   Or that some person, trapped in some lowly life, that they can know what it's like to feel free and cherished?

A computer can play all the right notes.  A computer can play at top speeds.  Who is going to be human enough to open doors for other humans? 

I just want to know these things.

[kevin69]

If I am fighting to save a music program in a University, do you think I will go to the board and say "save music, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, because music is subjectively enriching our own (not yours though!) lives!!"  Nope, not going to happen.  

In this case, i'd ask what the purpose of the university is.

If its to provide a focal point, incubator and storehouse for our knowledge and culture(s), then music is clearly a part of that, and many would say an important part. Thats an argument you can win because there are shared values between you and the university.

If its a business that sells education, then i'd try and find a different cause to fight

[timothy42b]

I just want to know these things.

I know I shouldn't do this, but.................one more try.

There are always answers to what, and when, and how, and who.  Science is the most reliable method for answering these, but there are other ways to "know."

But you want "why" answered, and that isn't possible.

Now you get a choice.

You can choose to feel miserable, knowing you will never have a definitive answer to your deepest philosophical "why" questions.

Or you can choose to be liberated, knowing there is no answer imposed on you, and you have unlimited freedom to choose your own answer.  Nobody can prove you wrong.  And in fact, you won't be wrong.    

[andd845]

Uh oh - in this kind of super broad context, and with this sort of deconstruction, nothing's fun or worthwhile. I'm looking at my coffee and currently questioning, why am I drinking it? Do I even like coffee? Who am I trying to impress drinking this coffee? What am I trying to achieve here? What' is the opportunity cost of me drinking it? And the environmental impact!? Nobody will even know that I drank this coffee in 100 years time! In short is coffee, making me happy? Needless to say, my coffee is now cold.

So, I think I'll stick in my own little world and continue playing the piano and what ever classical music I can find. (Fortunately, classical music has been kept alive long enough for me to discover it and enjoy it!)

[timothy42b]

Last night we had a baby visiting at our house.

When I got to hold him, I raced to the computer I have my good stereo speakers on.

I pulled up both horsey songs and the dragon eating the mall song on youtube and bounced him on my knee.  He LOVES classical music, at 6 months or whatever he is.