Fingering in Prokofiev Toccata:

[nanabush]

Hey guys!

I have a two week break from school, and I decided I was going to work through the fingerings in a few spots in this piece.  Comfort-wise, it's really a matter of just practicing slowly to adapt, because this is a very awkward piece...

I have two questions though, about two spots that I'm working at:

I looked through some different editions, can't find one with bar lines, but they all have the same page numbers...

So bear with me:  on page 3, the 4th system.  The RH has the sustained 8th note G#'s with the third going underneath.  This passage comes up in different keys over the next page.

My question here is what fingers to use for the thirds.  I tried dividing it across 4 fingers, and use the pinky for the G#.. So I could do like 42-31 42-31.... but I found that really nasty at too fast a tempo.  I resorted to just mashing 31-21 for the first two groups, and then just using 21 for all the subsequent thirds... it gives a more percussive effect, and I found keeping a loose wrist action made it pretty easy.

So I just want peoples' thoughts here.  Essentially a double thirds passage with a sustained (I'm assuming) pinky over top.  Should I be just using 2 and 1, or should I use a more legato fingering.

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My next question:  in the part right after, on page 4, third system down, the forte with both hands at the extremes of the keyboard... 

Left Hand:  I'm using the pinky for the C scale in the bass.  But for the chromatic passage, I'm only using 1 and 2.  Any alternatives?  It's a little weird, but it's starting to work.


Right Hand:  I'm also only using the pinky for the eighth notes up top.  For the double third passage:

|| 3-2-2-3-4-3-2-2 || 3-4-3-2-3-2-3-2 ||
|| 1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1 || 1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 ||

Or do people sometimes spam 1 and 2 for all the thirds?  I'm wondering if I should be taking a legato approach to this part (the fingering I put above fits really well for me), or if it just be more percussive and staccato for the thirds?

Thanks!  Sorry if these questions are a little specific, I just have a lot of time on my hands for the next two weeks 

[j_menz]

I've never played this, so you probably should bear that in mind, but no-one else has chimed in.

Seems to me it's not legato, so there's no real need to sweat the thirds. There may even be an advantage in doubling up on the fingers. 2-1 seems fine.

For your second passage, only advice is to work out what you want to do (percussive/legato wise) first. Then apply the fingering as needed. IMO, it's not legato, but see above for credibility on that one.

[birba]

You're going to have to give measure numbers.  My edition doesn't follow,yours, evidently.  I have the forberg jurgenson falling to pieces.   I did recognize the part with the hands at the extreme end of the keyboard.  My fingering differs slightly:

32223222 32323223
11111111 11111111

I would find that 4 combination you have very awkward.
                         2
On page three fourth system i,have no double thirds.  Unless you are referring to the thumb alternating third motif.  Which isn't difficult.

[liszt1022]

OP means
this edition, 4th page, second system, third measure.
https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/d9/IMSLP152199-PMLP03208-Prokofiev_-_Toccata__op._11.pdf

I would probably

2222
1111

my way through most of that.

[birba]

I see.  2-1 for all the thirds?!  I could never do that.  I use basically 3-1 2-1 for each  pair of thirds except for the first few.  There's a slur over the pair of thirds that is the intended effect.

[liszt1022]

Listen to this guy /\

I haven't played it myself.

[nanabush]

Thanks for the suggestions!

https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/d9/IMSLP152199-PMLP03208-Prokofiev_-_Toccata__op._11.pdf

Following this edition (linked from an earlier poster), the other section I am talking about is on the fourth page, second system, last measure.  Here, I found out a pretty comfy way of playing it, and it is no longer causing issues. 

I am actually finding more issues on the 3rd page, 4th/5th systems.  The 'phrasing' of the RH seems a 16th beat out of sync with the left hand, and my fingering is sound, but the damn coordination is tricky when I up the tempo lol!  This is where the LH mirrors what the RH does [in a sense] on P.4 system 2-3.

For the 'big' part with the hands at the extreme of the keyboard, I don't think 1-2 is feasible all the way down... in fact it does not work at all in the small elaboration where the pinky plays each 16th beat (in the very end of this section, P.6 system 3 measure 2...).  I'm finding my 1-4 fingering actually fits well when the pinky plays on the 1/8th beats, but again in this nasty section on P.6 , I find I have to rearrange my fingering to accommodate the faster pinky notes, so I'm thinking of redoing the fingering altogether.  To be honest, I had NO CLUE the pinky played that material until I actually looked at the score, and reached that part of the piece... even in recordings, it never dawned on me that that section came up (again, P.6, system 3, measure 2 and 3).

So there are still many more issues to come, but I thank everyone for their input on this [VERY] specific question, and thanks Birba for an alternative to the fingering.  I'm going to try this out and see how it goes.

===

Any tips on the F# recap of this section?  I'm thinking of jumping to this part and laying down some basic practice, but it's a little freaky at the moment haha!  (P.11, system 4 measure 2 in the edition I linked).

Thanks again guys!  This piece is pretty daunting, but it is just so damn fun to work at