Anyone here into olympic weight lifting?

[theholygideons]

I'm thinking of building some madass power in my legs and upper body, for the sake of performing better in sports, e.g. tennis. Anyone have any experience with weight lifting and the long term effects it has on playing the piano?

[pianistaw]

I'm on Starting Strength, it's a low volume high intensity strength program.
Squats 3x a week! Awesome for building proper form and strength. It goes like this:

Workout A
Squats 3x5
Bench Press 3x5
Power Clean 5x3 (I've put Barbell Rows 3x5 here instead, don't have a trainer and don't know proper form)

Workout B
Squats 3x5
Military Press 3x5
Deadlift 1x5

This program is great for beginners to get a good strength base.
You add 2,5 lbs on each lift every time you complete the prescribed reps and sets. This is the concept of linear periodization.
Alternate Workout A and Workout B(Week 1 A, B, A Week 2 B, A, B and so on, 3x days a week)

As for the effect on piano playing, it has only once made me feel strain in the wrist, while doing bench press. Could happen while doing military press too. But in the longterm I think it probably does not have much of an effect as long as you're using proper form.

[theholygideons]

I'm on Starting Strength, it's a low volume high intensity strength program.
Squats 3x a week! Awesome for building proper form and strength. It goes like this:

Workout A
Squats 3x5
Bench Press 3x5
Power Clean 5x3 (I've put Barbell Rows 3x5 here instead, don't have a trainer and don't know proper form)

Workout B
Squats 3x5
Military Press 3x5
Deadlift 1x5

This program is great for beginners to get a good strength base.
You add 2,5 lbs on each lift every time you complete the prescribed reps and sets. This is the concept of linear periodization.
Alternate Workout A and Workout B(Week 1 A, B, A Week 2 B, A, B and so on, 3x days a week)

As for the effect on piano playing, it has only once made me feel strain in the wrist, while doing bench press. Could happen while doing military press too. But in the longterm I think it probably does not have much of an effect as long as you're using proper form.

Oh man, that looks intense...
I don't know the proper technique to power cleans either.  Although I'm making decent progress from watching youtube videos. Right now, I can clean 60kg without feeling any pain. I found a pretty useful video tutorial of power cleans that explained all the phases and broke down the whole move into progressions to help learn it. I could link it to you if you want.

I have to do a lot of forearm curls for grip strength, and after each workout, when I play piano it feels like I have to re adapt to the weight of the keys again, which is why I try play piano before I workout.

Nice repertoire by the way. I think more musicians should start doing resistance training. The whole thing about damaging your hands is just a misconception now that I think of it, as long as you're smart about not lifting beyond your capability. 

[iansinclair]

Every  now and then I get an urge to exercise.  When I do, I find the best thing to do is to lie down and take a nap until the urge goes away...

[indianajo]

I cycle around the arm machines at a nearby gym daily in the winter. I do about 14 machines, 25 reps each except rowing 110 reps, so my strength doesn't deteriorate during the winter as it did three years ago.  The various machines isolate the muscles groups and control the weight so you don't have to worry about dropping a weight on your foot. They set up fast, too, so you can keep your heart rate up while going from one to the next.   I don't use leg machines because my knees are so bad from Army service.  I do  25 reps pretty fast to keep my pulse to 100-140 bpm, as bulking up (and losing flexibility) is not my goal.  I end up with 25 minutes on an arm cycling machine for aerobic ability. In the beginning my upper body strength wasn't high enough for the arm cycle machine to run my heart above 98 bpm, but after five weeks I my strength built up to run my heart  120-132 bpm.  I previous years I  used an exercycle daily at home with pushups, situps, toe touches, and pilates arm exercises with a  5 lb weight, but it has gotten to where my knees are too bad to stress my heart with the exercycle.  
Olympic weightlifiting violates the rules for lifting taught by the North American Van Lines course I took before I became a housemover.  (Post Vietnam recession, 1975, the Army kept me from interviewing for a job, then postponed my service when I graduated from college).  That grabbing and jerking techniques with the back bent is totally wrong, if you plan to do have spinal health more than 15 years.  I moved a piano in 2010 age 60 and a couple of 160 kg organ since, so I'd say the NAVL way is the right way.  Back straight and erect,  lift with the legs and gluteal muscles. Always squat to pick up loads, never bend your back.
In the summer when I carry trash cans of tree limbs and wood to dump in the sinkhole, I don't need the gym, but I do lose strength and coordination in my hands out at the rural property.  I'm thinking of buying a trashy looking upright to put in the trailer I stay in so I don't lose so much piano ability when I am hiding from the city ozone.  
When I was young I needed no strength building for piano, but I walked home from band practice 1-2 miles daily with a 25 lb bassoon and 15 lb of schoolbooks.  That was sufficient exercise.  Carrying and playing 20 lb cymbals (we spun them over our heads) while marching, especially marking time, didn't hurt my strength either.  

[theholygideons]

Olympic weightlifiting violates the rules for lifting taught by the North American Van Lines course I took before I became a housemover....That grabbing and jerking techniques with the back bent is totally wrong, if you plan to do have spinal health more than 15 years.

It may appear as a jerking and dangerous exercise to your untrained eye, but the movements are very efficient in the way they facilitate the motion of the bar off from the ground. The explosive power consists of the triple extension of the ankles, knees and hip and the back is never meant to be bent forwards. Plus, the first part of any lift primarily uses your legs and hamstrings to get the weight off the ground, which is then followed by the activation of the hips and traps. it's not as much as a jerk as you describe, but more a fluid motion, which is why people with better technique can lift more, than those who have larger muscles.   

[visitor]

It may appear as a jerking and dangerous exercise to your untrained eye, but the movements are very efficient in the way they facilitate the motion of the bar off from the ground. The explosive power consists of the triple extension of the ankles, knees and hip and the back is never meant to be bent forwards. Plus, the first part of any lift primarily uses your legs and hamstrings to get the weight off the ground, which is then followed by the activation of the hips and traps. it's not as much as a jerk as you describe, but more a fluid motion, which is why people with better technique can lift more, than those who have larger muscles.   

+1

Anyone that actually knows anything about o lifting understands the difference between lifting the weight up with your back and arms ( hint....that is how not to do it) vs a true hip hyperextensuon and explosive 'jump' under the bar.  It is one of the most biomechanically efficient ways to do a tremendous amount of work ( ie force x distance ala physics 101).  It is also remarkably safe when performed properly , the same safety profile cannot be assigned to many so called 'less dangerous' movements commonly prescribed by others , I.e smith machine squat etc....

As for deleterious effects on piano playing, only temporarily before the training adaptation kicks in.  At first you be a little sore and stiff, which is normal and transient. Once you are conditioned it's no big deal. I can deadlift w 285lbs -340lbs or so in the afternoon and play just fine later in the evening.

[thalbergmad]

When I was in my 20's, I regularly used to deadlift 600+ and then go for my piano lessons an hour later.

When your body is used to it, it is not a strain.

Now if I attempted anything like that, my knees would shoot across the gym.

Thal

[theholygideons]

When I was in my 20's, I regularly used to deadlift 600+ and then go for my piano lessons an hour later.

When your body is used to it, it is not a strain.

Now if I attempted anything like that, my knees would shoot across the gym.

Thal

Oh Thalberg..., lifter of 600+ weights, capable of the softest melodies. No wonder why ladies throw themselves at you.

[thalbergmad]

No wonder why ladies throw themselves at you.

Trouble is, they bounce off. I am a slightly different shape than I was 20 years ago.

Thal

[timothy42b]

Alternate Workout A and Workout B(Week 1 A, B, A Week 2 B, A, B and so on, 3x days a week)

3 days a week?

There is no way you can do high intensity 3 days a week and continue to make progress.

You need much more rest. 

You need to progress to 2 days a week, then 1 day. 

At least.

Some people are making good progress on one workout every 3 weeks. 

[j_menz]

3 days a week?

There is no way you can do high intensity 3 days a week and continue to make progress.

You need much more rest. 

You need to progress to 2 days a week, then 1 day. 

At least.

Some people are making good progress on one workout every 3 weeks. 

I use that less is more philosophy.  It's remarkable what once a century can achieve. 

[theholygideons]

3 days a week?

There is no way you can do high intensity 3 days a week and continue to make progress.

You need much more rest. 

You need to progress to 2 days a week, then 1 day. 

At least.

Some people are making good progress on one workout every 3 weeks. 

I agree. If you changed one of those days to cardiovascular training or plyometrics that would help in alleviating your workload, and contribute to a more all-rounded physiology, or else, how are you going to turn all that raw force into speed or power? 

[visitor]

I agree. If you changed one of those days to cardiovascular training or plyometrics that would help in alleviating your workload, and contribute to a more all-rounded physiology, or else, how are you going to turn all that raw force into speed or power? 

Like a lot of things, it depends. I used to be a strength coach in a previous life (that is people actually paid me to help sort all this stuff out for them). Too many moving parts to just arbitrarily advise one set of parameters blindly.  What's the age of the trainee (chronological age), NUTRITION, what' their training age, what's their general body type (meso, endo, ecto morph), how are they wired (neurological efficiency or deficiencies), endocrine status (specifically test, thyroid, and cortisol among others), insulin sensitivity, lifestyle (stress), vitamin D levels, and sleep (i.e. ideally 9+ undisturbed every night)...

All of these factor into ones recovery capacity. You can work as much as your ability to recuperate from that work allows you too. Also, after that, programming, not just frequency, but total load, amount of eccentric work specifically, all need to be taken in to account as well. And many people that say they can't train hard more often are not under recovered so much as they have a lack of something mentioned above (almost always starts with not enough sleep, and not eating enough, and enough of the right foods, and less of the wrong types)

i.e. straight o lifting is heavily neuro based and almost exclusively concentric in nature, there is less soft tissue trauma from this phase of muscular force development than the eccentric phase (this is what will make you feel 'sore' more often and the former).  If you are focused on o lifts and appropriate auxillary exercises, you can do those almost every day (I squat and/or o lift 4-6 days a week consecutively in a loading phase, with a 2nd workout most of those days later in the day that focuses on mobility and body weight movements).  You can go hard and heavy for periods of time to build work capacity, then unload (i like to take every 3rd to 5th week either completely off or just back it off to about half volume before starting over).

You can train your ability to handle more work if you do it intelligently (hint most don't).  Also, sometimes people say, and they are right sometimes that 'less is more', however the majority of the time, more is really more.

If you job was a garbage man, picking up heavy trash cans all day , every day, you would be sore, and tired all the time, at first, but you wouldn't not go to work because your intensity should only be 1-3 days per week. Eventually, you would recover and adapt to the demands you are placing on your body (you would sleep more, eat more, work mobility and passive recovery activities more...). The body is remarkably complex, but very simple to operate.

If you really want to get good, get a good coach, and don't fall for the trap of I'll coach my self, my old coach used to say, he that coaches himself, has a fool for a coach.

*same could be said of the many so called 'self taught pianists', he that teaches himself piano, has a fool for a piano teacher....
-V

[timothy42b]

It may seem complicated but it doesn't have to be, for those of us who will never compete at olympic levels.

By the way, to me the thread title is misleading.  The Olympic lifts are the snatch and the clean-and-jerk, neither of which is that useful to those of us who lift for fitness and core strength.  We benefit from compound multijoint movements like power clean, squat, dead, but probably can skip snatch, overhead squat, other movements with more risk. 

At any rate, when you start you make rapid beginner progess, then slower steady progress.

Then progress stalls for most people.  I know people who've been doing "ymca lifting," going to the gym and doing the same 120 pounds on the bench, for literally decades. 

There's no reason for that.  If you aren't stronger every workout, either you didn't work out hard enough or you didn't rest long enough. 

When progress stalls, many people are inclined to add work.  Most of us should add rest days instead. 

Most of us find adding an extra day of rest between workouts gets us progressing again, for a while.  Eventually we'll need two extra days rest.

Basic rule:  if you're making progress, don't change a winning strategy.  If you stop progressing do something different, and err on the side of doing less. 

Personally I like single progression because it fits my psychology better, I don't know if there's any reason it works better or worse.  Do you know the difference?  In double progression you pick a weight that you can do for example 8 reps.  You stay on that weight until you get 12 reps, then add enough weight to bring you back to 8, rinse, repeat. You change both number of reps and amount of weight.   I pick a weight I can do 10 reps, and add a tiny bit of weight each time.  (I have 1/4 pound plates).  I always stay the same on reps and always add weight.     

[ryankmfdm]

 Starting Strength is pretty epic, but for purposes of actual program design, Practical Programming for Strength Training (same authors) is the best resource on the subject I've ever seen.

[ryankmfdm]

There's no reason for that.  If you aren't stronger every workout, either you didn't work out hard enough or you didn't rest long enough. 

You can't always get stronger every workout. Usually people who've just started powerlifting for the first six to nine months or so can, but then you eventually need to start thinking about getting stronger on a weekly or even monthly basis.

[timothy42b]

Usually people who've just started powerlifting for the first six to nine months or so can, but then you eventually need to start thinking about getting stronger on a weekly or even monthly basis.

How is that possible?  Stay the same strength exactly, and after a month suddenly jump?  Drug free?

Or were you making small strength gains, but not enough to add another plate to the bar?  Think about getting some 1/4 pound microplates. 

And did it take a month because you didn't rest enough?  Maybe you could have done it in a week, or even........the next workout.

[theholygideons]

If you really want to get good, get a good coach, and don't fall for the trap of I'll coach my self, my old coach used to say, he that coaches himself, has a fool for a coach.

*same could be said of the many so called 'self taught pianists', he that teaches himself piano, has a fool for a piano teacher....
-V

Not that that's impossible, . Getting a coach is pretty expensive... I'm not exactly doing it to compete, but to add another component to my fitness.

What's your take on doing a upper body, lower body split, for 4 days in a row weekly, ABAB? I'm seeing a plateau in the number of reps I can do for pullups.

[ryankmfdm]

How is that possible?  Stay the same strength exactly, and after a month suddenly jump?  Drug free?

Or were you making small strength gains, but not enough to add another plate to the bar?  Think about getting some 1/4 pound microplates. 

And did it take a month because you didn't rest enough?  Maybe you could have done it in a week, or even........the next workout.

Rippetoe and Kilgore use a classification system for a powerlifter's level of experience: novice, intermediate, advanced, and elite. The definition of being a novice is that, with the proper programming, you can increase your strength from one workout to the next (e.g., if you could hit the bench press on Monday for 3 x 5 @ 205#, then for 3 x 5 on Friday--not the next workout day, which should be Wednesday, but the next day on which you work bench press--@ 206#, then you're by definition a novice). At the intermediate level and upward, more complex programming is necessary. For instance, at the intermediate level, the stress accumulated at the end of one workout isn't enough to spur adaptation. At that level, it requires the accumulation of a week's worth of stress. It's generally accepted that at the advanced level that timeframe moves up to a month.

 Something most people don't realize is that, when you first begin powerlifting, most of the adaptation is neuromuscular. The most frustrating thing about powerlifting is that the more advanced you become, the slower you make gains, and the smaller those gains become. That's why it's absolutely essential to program intelligently, IMO, so as to avoid frustration.

[thalbergmad]

The most frustrating thing about powerlifting is that the more advanced you become, the slower you make gains, and the smaller those gains become.

This is indeed a great truth. If memory serves, it took me about the same time to get from 150kg to 280kg deadlifts as it did to get from 280kg to 300kg.

Thal

[timothy42b]

This is indeed a great truth. If memory serves, it took me about the same time to get from 150kg to 280kg deadlifts as it did to get from 280kg to 300kg.

Thal

Did you by any chance have the same number of rest days between workouts when you were lifting 280 kg as when you were lifting 150 kg? 

Not that rest is the ONLY solution;  there's also nuances of correct form, diet, sleep, etc.  But it stands to reason when you're doing twice the workout, there's a good chance your muscles need longer to recover. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Did you by any chance have the same number of rest days between workouts when you were lifting 280 kg as when you were lifting 150 kg? 

Not that rest is the ONLY solution;  there's also nuances of correct form, diet, sleep, etc.  But it stands to reason when you're doing twice the workout, there's a good chance your muscles need longer to recover. 

By that logic, those who are literally competing in the Olympics should not be training more than once a week, if that. Sorry, but you've taken a titbit of truth and extrapolated via dubious logic to the point of turning it into nonsense. There are a lot of issues, but the idea that the best do LESS than three workouts per week is primarily founded on misunderstandings and urban myths. Some people do pretty well off limited workouts, but neither the strongest weightlifters nor those who have bodies like Arnie got there from a less is more outlook.

Sorry, but although some people do over train, the only thing that says that two workouts per week will give you the body of a Greek God is Internet myths.

[ryankmfdm]

By that logic, those who are literally competing in the Olympics should not be training more than once a week, if that. Sorry, but you've taken a titbit of truth and extrapolated via dubious logic to the point of turning it into nonsense. There are a lot of issues, but the idea that the best do LESS than three workouts per week is primarily founded on misunderstandings and urban myths. Some people do pretty well off limited workouts, but neither the strongest weightlifters nor those who have bodies like Arnie got there from a less is more outlook.

Sorry, but although some people do over train, the only thing that says that two workouts per week will give you the body of a Greek God is Internet myths.

Indeed. Tim, if you're looking for the next step once you've gotten all you can outta simple linear progression, I'd look into the Texas Method or one of Bill Starr's workouts.

[thalbergmad]

Did you by any chance have the same number of rest days between workouts when you were lifting 280 kg as when you were lifting 150 kg? 

Yes, as although my workouts were more punishing when I was capable of heavier weights, by that time my recovery times were down. I did however, reduce the length of my workouts, as just about everyone in the gym at that time was roughly following Mentzer.

Thal

[timothy42b]

Yes, as although my workouts were more punishing when I was capable of heavier weights, by that time my recovery times were down. I did however, reduce the length of my workouts, as just about everyone in the gym at that time was roughly following Mentzer.

Thal

Oh, you're a Mentzner fan.

So am I, despite the hype.  Then you're well aware of overtraining and the different strategies to avoid it. 

I remember an article of his where he claimed most of his personal students got stronger with a three week layoff.  That started me reading more about it, and I became intrigued with the HIT approach.

Like most of us my age I started with Starr's The Strong Shall Survive and Hatfield/s Power, but the field has progressed since then.

I do believe in keeping very accurate training logs and actually using them to revise your own workout schedules.

The Cisco and Little stuff is interesting, too. 

Now in my 60s much of this is academic for me;  my goals are very different.   

[visitor]

Not that that's impossible, . Getting a coach is pretty expensive... I'm not exactly doing it to compete, but to add another component to my fitness.

What's your take on doing a upper body, lower body split, for 4 days in a row weekly, ABAB? I'm seeing a plateau in the number of reps I can do for pullups.

again, the question always needs to be premised on " who are you, what is your current status, what are your primary goals''.
Beyond that, to try and give you a general answer, for a client, it's alright. For me personally, I hate splits, I think for most people they are silly (they work very well for the right physique athlete though, ala true bodybuilding, but many people do not have the genetics, time, know-how, and of course phamraceuticals to make very practical use of them).

I like to work darn near everything, every change I get. The body works remarkably when when t reated as whole. Compartmentalizing the training does not translate as well to real work strength and performance application, and into favorably body recomposition (building lean mass and lowering body fat, ala 'get jacked'). 

You need to define your primary goal and attack that with focus. If you really want to get good at pull ups (i.e. can insert anything for that statement and still be true). Just treat pull ups as a strength skill. It is what I do, I treat strength as a skill that much be practiced, and as such, I practice it a lot, intensely, and frequently. 

If you want to get better at pull ups, focus on pull ups, do more of them. 

Read Pavel's take on it , dude is a strength genius, I have applied his stuff to other and myself with remarkable results:
example (for more buy his books from Dragon Door Publications)
http://www.leanandmuscular.org/greasing-the-groove.php

good luck.
-V

[goldentone]

As for deleterious effects on piano playing, only temporarily before the training adaptation kicks in.  At first you be a little sore and stiff, which is normal and transient. Once you are conditioned it's no big deal. I can deadlift w 285lbs -340lbs or so in the afternoon and play just fine later in the evening.

I don't do deadlifts for my weightlifting routine, which isn't olympic, but I am impressed.  Even a little scared maybe of that ability.  Maybe I should consider including it.

I bet you are a good improviser.  Welcome to the forum.

[visitor]

I don't do deadlifts for my weightlifting routine, which isn't olympic, but I am impressed.  Even a little scared maybe of that ability.  Maybe I should consider including it.

I bet you are a good improviser.  Welcome to the forum.

Thanks goldentone :-).

I can improv well on the gym floor, at the keyboard i need more work lol

Key to working up deadlifts (which is and should be a foundational movement most folks strength program is to work up slowly and use a variety of grips but Heavier loads is 2x or more of you body weight an alternated grip as in one hand supinate and one hand pronated I find allows for maximal loading with least unnecessary stress on your grip)

Most people if the train and practice the movement should be able to work up to at least a one rep max of "el duble" catchy name I use for anything you achieve at twice your body weight .

Glad to be here.  Just visiting of couse

[goldentone]

You are funny, Visitor.  That gym improv could really give one a rush.