What are your thoughts on teaching hand position?

[m1469]

I have recently had a child come to me in her lesson, saying her mother is wondering why I have not taught her a certain way to hold her hands on the keys.  I generally do not teach much, if anything, as it relates to "hand position" as a starter - except for 5-finger positions on the keys.  I do not teach a child to act as if they are holding a ball and to then turn their hand onto the keys and place them in a certain spot on the keys (a certain place in the white zone) as a starting point.  From what I understand, this is an older concept as it is, perhaps not utilized much anymore(?), but one that used to be (or still is?) one of the very starter points in teaching.

Some of my reasons for not going this route:

1.  Unhealthy - It actually tends to teach tension and, from what I observe, most people don't/didn't actually get the ultimately desired affect from thinking this way.  I have observed in pianists this tendency to keep the hands in a certain position that resembles this, and many times they are limited by it and actually suffer from carpal tunnel.

2.  Distracting - My first priority for them is to find a personal love for the sound of the instrument and for music, and to immediately feel a sense of personal connection (through self-confidence) with the activity.  For this, I feel a "skeleton approach" is helpful, where I guide them enough for them to experience an immediate form of "know-how" in a learned way, without standing in the way of their nature with too many formulas at once.

3.  Formulaic - I believe that, while there are physical characteristics of a natural, relaxed hand position, a truly natural hand position as it relates to the piano is a matter of a calm, trusting psyche and a kinesthetic understanding/relationship with (musical) note-groupings - and that I mean very literally.  Groups of notes, not just one, in relation to the whole hand.  

4.  Unnatural - I believe that my point number 3 is only developed over time and only in relation to actually playing music in an intelligently guided way, and can't actually be learned starting with an intellectual concept of a static hand position that is fairly independent of the instrument and musical textures, and which is taught as a first step.

5.  Pushy - It is not a race when it comes to the development of students, and it is important to expect it to take a few years for even basic concepts to come together in a healthy and personally organized way.  I generally believe it is better to take a few years for these concepts to come together healthfully than to push a certain type of perfection on all fronts within the first year.  

[awesom_o]

I find hand position tends to develop beautifully on its own once you start kids on improvisation.

Occasionally, I have to remind younger students to keep their thumbs on the keyboard, or to make a good tone without collapsing the last knuckle joint, but generally my students understand well what to do with their hands, and we can focus more on the music itself.

Overall, I teach music! Not "hand position".

[goldentone]

Some years back, from the influence of a pianist here knowledgeable in the area, I began to be conscious of the integration of my arms and body in playing.  It was not fully developed, but birthed into existence.  In subsequent years there has been interference in that awareness, but that seed should still be there to be developed further when the interference ceases.

I've never, while pursuing my development as a pianist, given thought to hand position in its rudimentary definition.  Your approach as I might say seeks that which naturally bends in the pianist, and would accommodate exactly what the piece calls for.  For pieces of music do not begin roundly in the center of the keyboard in the white zone, but anywhere it is called for.  Nevertheless, there are still fundamentals I need to bring to fruition despite where I have advanced to, and perhaps with the right instruction those can be cured instead of my doing it all by myself as I have without that assurance in all of these years.

I like what you've shared.  I'm comforted by your philosophy on a truly natural hand position, which, then, is a fusion of the universal and the person themself?  When playing there can be much passion that is released in the whole hand, and a calm, trusting psyche, can harness the energy and make for a natural experience where tension might easily prevail.  You'd probably agree that we desire a natural force (because there is a point of harshness that can be crossed as I have heard in pianists before) to be released on the keys above, the keyboard and the pianist in their natural close relation while playing.  
I'm interested if you could expound some more, in your third point especially, which is the center of your points.  I would really appreciate it as it would give me some more meat to work with.  

[m1469]

I've never, while pursuing my development as a pianist, given thought to hand position in its rudimentary definition.

Personally, I have spent a very intensive (if not actually long) amount of time learning how to balance on even just one finger/note, and what that means to the rest of my hand, as well as motion from one finger to another.  And that, with two separate, big goals in mind (and a myriad of smaller ones) - so not just stretched over months, but over some years.  I am betting that I will probably never meet somebody who will do the same under my teaching, at least without forcing it upon them and thereby killing their desire to play (if they stick it out despite hating it, for some reason).

I'm interested if you could expound some more, in your third point especially,

Hopefully I will be capable of expounding, more or less, for the rest of my life, under circumstances that reach beyond my sleepless nights and routine professional days.  Until then, I will say it is of course related to a childhood perception of the keys and linked through the years to current day.  It is linked to sound perception and tonality, as well.  Not quite all in one piece just yet!

[goldentone]

It's true you may never have a student proper who is willing to submit to the intensity of the awareness and knowledge you seek, but that doesn't mean you are without a compeer who may wish to overlap with you, at least to an extent, in a mutual way.

I am curious as to what your two big goals are if you wish to share them.  I'd like to say more, so I may be back later.

[go12_3]

I think hand positions has to be done naturally in a progressive way, depending upon the student's age and perceptions.  I feel the basic hand position is important, which is the middle C, however, it may be beneficial for the student to experience not just the Middle C hand position, but an octave higher or lower.  Make it interesting and enjoyable for the student.  Children gets bored quickly and so moving the hand position to octaves up or down, creates a more interesting aspect of hand position.  Then do the G hand position, and so forth.  It all depends upon the student's ability and perception.

[seanrb]

I strongly agree with the original poster here. Grasping invisible balls, bubbles, etc. leads to tense fingers and wrists. This leads to inflexibility in the hand, I think. A "natural" hand position is truly the way our hand exists when at our side while standing or casually walking. If I have a student with unusual issues regarding hand position, I will have them stand up with their arms at their side, then tell them to sit down without bothering their arms or hands, and then I simply place their hand on the keys. This is an exercise that has the potential to enlighten you and the student to all sorts of tension issues that may be hiding if you find that their various joints don't move easily when you try to place their hands at the keyboard.

[cometear]

Occasionally, I have to remind younger students to keep their thumbs on the keyboard

Did I read this wrong? Keep their thumbs on the keyboard?

I think. A "natural" hand position is truly the way our hand exists when at our side while standing or casually walking. If I have a student with unusual issues regarding hand position, I will have them stand up with their arms at their side, then tell them to sit down without bothering their arms or hands, and then I simply place their hand on the keys.

This is exactly what I do.

[hardy_practice]

You might want to turn the stool sideways so the arms can hang while the student is seated.   

[awesom_o]

Did I read this wrong? Keep their thumbs on the keyboard?

No, you read correctly!

Many of my youngest students like to play with their thumbs quite far away from the keyboard, which tends to compromise the natural shape of the hand.

[cometear]

No, you read correctly!

Many of my youngest students like to play with their thumbs quite far away from the keyboard, which tends to compromise the natural shape of the hand.

Could you not have their thumbs off the keys and their fingers on the outside of the white keys to have the natural shape? Then when they play black keys, the thumb would come forward.

[timothy42b]

3.  Formulaic - I believe that, while there are physical characteristics of a natural, relaxed hand position, a truly natural hand position as it relates to the piano is a matter of a calm, trusting psyche and a kinesthetic understanding/relationship with (musical) note-groupings - and that I mean very literally.  Groups of notes, not just one, in relation to the whole hand.  
  

This seems like three ideas to me.

One is whether to prescribe a hand shape at all.  I tend to think that may be a good idea.  I'm not sure a beginner always lucks into a usable one.

The next is whether the commonly prescribed "grip the ball" is overly tense and rigid and needs to be replaced with a more modern understanding.  This sounds logical but I'd defer to your experience on that one.

The third is that all students have the same learning style, and your focus on the psyche, with the implications of an "inner tennis" oriented approach, will work for everybody.  I would disagree with this.  I think learning styles are almost hard wired, and a one size fits all approach, even as general as this one, is doomed to failure for the students that don't match. 

[m1469]

This seems like three ideas to me.

One is whether to prescribe a hand shape at all.  I tend to think that may be a good idea.  I'm not sure a beginner always lucks into a usable one.

The next is whether the commonly prescribed "grip the ball" is overly tense and rigid and needs to be replaced with a more modern understanding.  This sounds logical but I'd defer to your experience on that one.

The third is that all students have the same learning style, and your focus on the psyche, with the implications of an "inner tennis" oriented approach, will work for everybody.  I would disagree with this.  I think learning styles are almost hard wired, and a one size fits all approach, even as general as this one, is doomed to failure for the students that don't match.  

So are you basically saying that some individuals benefit from and find the most natural-for-them technique with specific instruction on how to hold their hand on the keys?

[timothy42b]

So are you basically saying that some individuals benefit from and find the most natural-for-them technique with specific instruction on how to hold their hand on the keys?

Yes, precisely. 

[m1469]

Yes, precisely.  

I do agree.  There is still something more which calls to me though, and that is the ideal or ultimate result.  No matter what, I think the ideal result is "supposed" to be something which is highly individual and very organic and so I am always looking for what that is from the very first moment, and I want for that to lead everything.  My mind has changed slightly though on this, or has had the chance to reflect more since I started this topic, as a result of having the opportunity to communicate the ideas outside of myself and my teaching studio.  

My philosophy as a voice teacher is more and more that I am not there to truly instill anything into anybody that they do not already and innately have within them.  My job is to get false ideas and manifestations of those ideas out of the way; to strip down the garbage that attaches itself to us, and thereby allow a voice to resonate as freely as possible, and as it is perfectly built to do.  I think there is very much the same thing when it comes to piano playing (and probably any instrument, or any activity that we do in life).  Sometimes what seems like instruction, sometimes what seems like a new skill that is being learned and practiced, is actually just false ideas being eradicated to expose a truer version of oneself, a self which has truly been there all along.

[dinulip]

Contrary to most -- if not all posters here, I start teaching the right hand position right from Day 1, regardless of the student's age.  And contrary to what is being said repeatedly on this thread, my students are not tense when they play.  I just do not understand all the big fuss everyone makes about when and how to teach the right 'hand position'!  I just do it very early on, making sure that the student does not develop bad habits that would be extremely difficult to eliminate later on.

Despite my straight forward approach to teaching hand position, most of my students remain enthusiastic and eager to learn.  They do not develop carpal tunnel, and play in a natural and relaxed way.  

Only those who do not practise daily (and they are very few) never learn how to place their hand properly on the keyboard within the first year.  I am not too sorry when they quit, as I figure music was not their true calling.

[keypeg]

Contrary to most -- if not all posters here, I start teaching the right hand position right from Day 1, regardless of the student's age

Can you define what you teach in terms of "right hand position" (I assume right = correct rather than the opposite of left)?  What else might go together with this (relaxation, the rest of the body) if you teach it?  If you mean the "round holding ball" type of thing, what about the music that goes with the teaching?  I mean: 5 finger position on white keys gives one shape, black keys already varies it, and expanding to a 6th, 7th, or octave expanse wants changes in hand shape.

[Bob]

Relaxed, curved/holding a bubble.  No fallen arches.

Stuff on black keys.  C five finger pos.  G, etc.  And then it dissolves away.


Just make the parent happy.  Tell her you cover hand position in the lessons.  And tell her her kid has a naturally good hand position, so you don't need to focus on it much.  You could also throw in 'everyone has differently shaped hands,' 'kids are still growing,' etc.

[toomuchpolitics]

I don't like to talk about curled fingers.  I find it to be confusing for students and parents alike, and can lead to a lot of tension and rigidity.  From the first lesson, I talk about joint stability, and I don't stop talking about it until it's firmly ingrained in the student. Here's a video I made on the topic.

[m1469]

Thanks for posting this, toomuchpolitics.  While I understand the concepts and I do not necessarily disagree with them (I can see that what you are talking about comes from diligent study and thorough and committed application), it's still really difficult for me to watch, I am finding.  I myself have been my own most diligent student when it comes to pretty much everything musical that I would ever imagine teaching, so I have spent quite a bit of energy and attention in dealing with details of my fingers and hands and body (in my own ways), and I have no plan of stopping at what I have already learned thus far.  It is strangely very difficult for me to want to imagine somebody trying to fully shape my hand positions for me throughout my life though, and my own resistance about this tends to make me not want to tell my students in too much detail how they need to be holding their own hands - granted this is a possible downfall on my part, I realize.

Part of what is challenging for me regarding this is that, in reality, a person -any person- can never actually fully teach another individual the entirety of what hand position is all about.  There are some basic, straightfoward, and perhaps even "simple" aspects of it, some guidelines which are/can be correct, but there is absolutely no amount of information-passing that will actually cause a student to really feel an active and reactive, supportive and supple, hand - in direct relation with sound and keys and musical image and the rest of one's body.  There is no way to fully describe it in words - it is impossible, but also very personal.  And this personal relationship also happens to be a necessary element of playing for personal reasons - which, in the end, is all we have!

So in explanations about hand positions, all a person can ever truly give another is parts of the story and pointers about areas to explore.  And, I guess I believe that a person is either going to want to explore hand position or they are not, and it's going to really need to end up being something that they personally *want* to explore.  

My own desire to explore led me to concrete ideas (some shared in some form from other people), so in that respect I do feel it's important that concrete ideas exist in the world because they are a platform to explore from.  I can't say I'd want to be without that and I am extremely grateful for finding concepts I needed to find.  What I have a difficult time with, though, is seeing a concept about hand position (even one that includes many correct ideas) be explained as though it actually is the totality of what hand position means, and for individuals to get stuck there for the rest of their lives.  As far as I can tell, if a person's hand position and understanding of it doesn't change, grow, and develop throughout one's entire life alongside musical advancement, there will be limits placed upon a person's ability directly because of that, and sometimes even physical problems caused by it.  I have seen it with my own eyes more than once and it's a shame.

[m1469]

To take one point, for example, a "raised" bridge at the first joint is not actually, truly raised.  It's not lifted, and the height at which we sit on the bench (as well as other factors) comes into play on this, too, even just in the way our hand appears to be on the keys.  But, when the first joint is supportive so that the fingers can hang, it is actually a result of the hand being in a natural, resting position (which is what I actually see in your own hand when you talk about it being "raised").  It is possible for it to be thought of as "raised" though, as though we must somehow cause it to go there, and suddenly, one wrong step along those lines, and we have more challenges to deal with.  Not to mention that it's eventually important to not think we must keep our hands in that precise position at all times, and it's very easy to fall into thinking that we should!  I realize that part of the problem is simply in trying to verbalize concepts that can't be perfectly verbalized, but that's part of the reason I resist verbalizing them!

[hardy_practice]

I don't like to talk about curled fingers.  I find it to be confusing for students and parents alike, and can lead to a lot of tension and rigidity.  From the first lesson, I talk about joint stability, and I don't stop talking about it until it's firmly ingrained in the student. Here's a video I made on the topic.

"The bridge...very important it's held in the right position"  I'm afraid once 'holding' is brought into it I have to switch off.  Holding is tension.  Also, you'd go on about joint stability with a sprinter?  A footballer?

[nyiregyhazi]

To take one point, for example, a "raised" bridge at the first joint is not actually, truly raised.  It's not lifted, and the height at which we sit on the bench (as well as other factors) comes into play on this, too, even just in the way our hand appears to be on the keys.  But, when the first joint is supportive so that the fingers can hang, it is actually a result of the hand being in a natural, resting position (which is what I actually see in your own hand when you talk about it being "raised").  It is possible for it to be thought of as "raised" though, as though we must somehow cause it to go there, and suddenly, one wrong step along those lines, and we have more challenges to deal with.  Not to mention that it's eventually important to not think we must keep our hands in that precise position at all times, and it's very easy to fall into thinking that we should!  I realize that part of the problem is simply in trying to verbalize concepts that can't be perfectly verbalized, but that's part of the reason I resist verbalizing them!

Raising makes perfect sense. Don't forget that keys push back at fingers. So if the finger isn't felt to be trying to grow (in balance with how the key is trying to push back and squash it), then the only way it can be keep the key down is being generically locked instead. In fact, pretending the position can occur with zero effort is one of the most likely causes of tension. Remove the growing action and you have no choice but to fixate everything to maintain it. A lot of people who think they are relaxed do exactly this kind of locking up. When you're trying to grow the knuckle up and away, that will both keep the key down and connect the arm with a lower effort (as long as you're not pressing down through it from the arm).

I strongly suggest collapsing your knuckles against the keys and practising lightening up from the arm enough to push the hand open again. You can practise this both against a cluster to start with and against the surface of keys which are not depressed, as you grow more sensitive to the opening action. It's very much a raising. The moment it stops being that, everything will begin collapsing down.