Broken Octaves in Scherzo Trio of Beethoven Opus 28

[brogers70]

I've been learning the Pastorale sonata. I thought the technical killer would be the piu allegro quasi presto on the final page, but what's driving me nuts is the trio of the scherzo. The left hand broken octaves and other accompaniment figures cause my hand to tense up badly.

I've tried a lot of approaches. Many of them are meant to get me to relax and not to be used in exaggerated form in the end.

1. Playing broken octaves with a forearm rotation and my fingers close to the keys.
2. Lifting my elbow and sort of shaking my hand with a loose wrist to get the broken octaves. My teacher does it this way and it works very well for her, but I can't make it happen.
3. Keeping my hand in a closed position and moving from the lower to the higher octave with my arm (obviously not meant to be used at speed).
4. Practicing as unbroken octaves, using wrist octaves. Then playing the octaves as eighth notes, but not broken, then adjusting the position of my fingers so that the octaves are broken (but not keeping the fingers absolutely rigid).
5. Thinking about something else and trying to just let go and play fast as though it were easy.
6. Playing the trio as if it were an adagio and aiming for perfect relaxation.

None of these seems to do the trick for me. The rest of the sonata is not giving me any really hard problems. So any suggestions on how to handle the LH in the trio would be appreciated.

[faulty_damper]

I take it that if you were to look from the side, the hand is straight with forearm?  If so, that's the problem.  You'll need an octave arch with the hand so raise the wrist higher.  Now the hand looks bent downward from the side.  The 1-5 and 1-4 now has a higher arch which can support themselves with much less muscle.

[brogers70]

Hmm. I'm skeptical, because my teacher is always warning me against the tension that comes from creating a bend at the wrist like that. But there's no harm in experimenting a little. I'll see if it helps. Thanks.

[awesom_o]

Why not practice scales in broken octaves in all key signatures?

That should sort you out pretty fast!

I recommend you do not consciously raise the wrist for this type of passage, although you will encounter different schools of thought on this subject.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hmm. I'm skeptical, because my teacher is always warning me against the tension that comes from creating a bend at the wrist like that. But there's no harm in experimenting a little. I'll see if it helps. Thanks.

I agree entirely. If raising the wrist opens the arch, it may help. If it's doesn't, it may make things worse. I recommend double rotation here- not to generate key movement but to learn to stand well on each finger in an extreme arch like rubinstein.

If you rock on the thumb, watch if your arch is open. If not rocking straight back onto a squashed 5th is disaster. Carry on rocking further toward the thumb and watch your fifth finger knuckle get elevated (by opening space between thumb and palm). Keep the finger touching the key though. The fifth will stand tall and open on the key. At this point you can rock onto it with security. If you want to rock however, you must first properly rock AWAY from the finger before rocking onto it. Rocking is hopeless if you're already squashed before you start it. I have to be overwhelmingly disciplined in my use of the 5th finger or I just slump pathetically on to it. You can't rock efficiently onto a 5th that is not already standing. Do the same process on the thumb too-where you open the thumb away from the palm first before rocking into it. Don't let the thumb come toward the palm but keep it open by pointing down. When you get used to being truly open, you can also get away flatter positions. But starting squashed and then rocking is truly disastrous.

[faulty_damper]

Hmm. I'm skeptical, because my teacher is always warning me against the tension that comes from creating a bend at the wrist like that. But there's no harm in experimenting a little. I'll see if it helps. Thanks.

So I was correct in assuming the hand and forearm were aligned.  There's no harm in bending at the wrist at all.  Your fingers will naturally straighten as you bend the hand lower.

[nyiregyhazi]

So I was correct in assuming the hand and forearm were aligned.  There's no harm in bending at the wrist at all.  Your fingers will naturally straighten as you bend the hand lower.

I'd be interested to know the source of the idea that Liszt is playing broken octaves there. If you're seriously thinking that a single snapshot of an instant in time (portrayed artistically rather than photo-realistically) from an unknown musical context is supposed to be meaningful to this very specific type of passage, you really must be kidding. Surely you can make your point with a contextually relevant video of someone using the technique as you describe?
.

[faulty_damper]

I really think you got lost in the context.  That painting is an illustration of why having high wrists is not wrong, nor will it create tension.  As well, since my solution to the difficulty of the broken octaves was to raise the wrists, I thought it was apt.

And did you know, based on the OPs descriptions of his trouble, how he actually played the broken octaves?  No, you didn't.

[nyiregyhazi]

I really think you got lost in the context.  That painting is an illustration of why having high wrists is not wrong, nor will it create tension.  As well, since my solution to the difficulty of the broken octaves was to raise the wrists, I thought it was apt.

And did you know, based on the OPs descriptions of his trouble, how he actually played the broken octaves?  No, you didn't.

A very poor illustration. For all we know, he might have been rolling his wrist over to phrase off the last note of an entire phrase that had been played with an extremely low wrist. Even Horowitz could be pictured in such a position if you chose the right frame. If you want make a good argument for your case, the very least you can do is to attempt to apply objective scrutiny to your argument before trying to portray something so flimsy and circumstantial as being important evidence. The photo would only be meaningful if anyone said having a high wrist at any instant in time is wrong. If you feel strongly about this you can at least find a contextual video that shows a sustained high wrist being used effectively. how hard can it really be to find a piece of meaningful evidence for it?

[brogers70]

Why not practice scales in broken octaves in all key signatures?

That should sort you out pretty fast!

I recommend you do not consciously raise the wrist for this type of passage, although you will encounter different schools of thought on this subject.

What frustrates me is that I already do practice broken octave scales in all keys, and it hasn't sorted me out. For some reason I find this passage a lot harder than plain vanilla broken octave scales. I'm not sure why. There are a few jumps, and I may be getting tense around them, but I've sure spent a lot of time working on relaxing for those little jumps. I like the advice about working on the arch, and I'll try to do that without ending up with a high, tense wrist.

[awesom_o]

What frustrates me is that I already do practice broken octave scales in all keys, and it hasn't sorted me out.

Perhaps you haven't been practicing them very effectively, then!

Have you tried practicing the passage without the broken octave, but instead playing only the bass note of the broken octave OR the top note?

[nyiregyhazi]

Perhaps you haven't been practicing them very effectively, then!

Have you tried practicing the passage without the broken octave, but instead playing only the bass note of the broken octave OR the top note?

Well, that was exactly what he was saying. He doesn't know how to make them work right. Drilling in many keys doesn't work until the basic technique is there. I didn't make any notable progress on these kinds of figuration until I learned how to truly stand on both fingers without any knuckle droop. The classic mistake (and the one I made) was to put rotation before opening actions. Rotating is good, but only if you know how to both start from an open position and generate more finger action than rotational action. I didn't get off the ground until these issues were clear. A finger that is getting squashed rather than opening out is simply too cumbersome. Unfortunately, a great many who focus mostly on rotation cause destructive squashing and dropping of the arch. It's like walking around in a squatting position all day instead of standing upright.

[faulty_damper]

I like the advice about working on the arch, and I'll try to do that without ending up with a high, tense wrist.

You can't have the arch without the high wrist. You'll notice that simply holding the wrist higher will result in far less muscle tension in the fingers and you'll have to balance the angle of the wrist with the attack.

[nyiregyhazi]

You can't have the arch without the high wrist. You'll notice that simply holding the wrist higher will result in far less muscle tension in the fingers and you'll have to balance the angle of the wrist with the attack.

? That's simply nonsense. It's disproven by footage of numerous pianists. You can have an arch with aligned wrists low wrists or high wrists. Have you watched much on youtube?

[brogers70]

Thanks guys. You've given me some things to play with.