Reinforcing 5 with 4 for loudness?

[1piano4joe]

Hi all,

Is this done all the time? Is this "bad technique" to be avoided or is this an indication that your musicality is refined enough to discern the dynamic limitations of the pinkie and thusly, it necessitates a reinforcement by the fourth finger? Does that make sense?

Does the pinkie even have the capacity to play just as loudly as the other fingers? I know mine sure doesn't. Maybe it's the relative lack of mass in that finger?

Consider a right hand crescendo where the pinkie is going to be the highest and loudest note. My piano has more to give and so do I, BUT my poor little pinkie just can't compete with fingers 2,3 and 4 used just previously in the crescendoing passage. So, what to do?

My first option is to crescendo with less musicality. I don't like this option at all. Yet, it does make some sort of logical sense to me. Relatedly...

I don't play a piece fast and then slow down for the hard part. Never, NEVER, EVER, do I do that. I focus on that hard part by spot practicing, looking for a better fingering, hand movement, etc. However, "good" that troublesome spot becomes, determines the upper limit of the performance tempo.

However, it must be apples and oranges because there is something inherently wrong in the analogy. On the other hand, there surely, must be tools, addressing tempo considerations, that are applicable to musicality but this application of logic doesn't seem relevant. What I mean is, is that just because I shouldn't play so fast as to lose control, doesn't mean there should be a restriction on musicality or does it? I'm confused...

Okay, I've pondered it and will now continue with my thoughts.

If I absolutely must (because of context) play the pinkie SOLO, unassisted, then YES, if musicality demands that the pinkie note be loudest than I will not crescendo as strongly, so that it becomes less musical. That would be like slowing down at the hard part, right?

Now that I think about it, not only, does 5 reinforce 4, but in addition, 4 reinforces 5. They both reinforce each other. Musically, this means that 4 & 5 TOGETHER, having a greater total combined mass, as well as strength, should be able to really WOW! a note and the listeners.

The title of this post is not correct, is it? If the 4th finger is playing loudly on the penultimate note (next to the last), then for the ultimate note it is really 5 reinforcing 4. The fourth finger becomes aided with 5. The more accurate post title would then be, "Reinforcing 4 with 5".

So, I play 4 & 5 together, free (release) the VERY IMPORTANT helpful 4 immediately, and continue to hold that incredibly loud singing note with 5. This freeing of 4, holding of 5, in CERTAIN CONTEXTS can allow a continuation of legato in the rest of the passage.

Do I have this right?

Thank you, Joe.

    

 

[brogers70]

I think that before you go for adding 4 to 5, you make sure you are maximizing the sound you can get with 5 alone. So, if we are talking about the right hand, make sure you are not in a position of ulnar deviation and make sure that your elbow is to the right of the note you are playing so that there's a straight line from the elbow to the tip of 5. And make sure your arm weight comes down on 5 (you obviously cannot play every note by lifting and lowering the arm, but you certainly can relax the arm weight on to 5 at the peak of a crescendo.

That, at least is the advice my teacher gave me when I asked the same question a while back.

[j_menz]

So, if we are talking about the right hand, make sure you are not in a position of ulnar deviation and make sure that your elbow is to the right of the note you are playing so that there's a straight line from the elbow to the tip of 5.

Even if that were always desirable (about which I express no opinion, the last thing we need is for another thread to disintegrate into one of those discussions), it is not always possible.  There are pieces that have your hands doing things at opposite ends of the keyboard, and most of us don't have the wingspan such an approach would require.

I sometimes find myself using 4-5 on one note. I have never bothered to decode the circumstances, and it has never been a problem for me.

[nyiregyhazi]

There's a huge factor omitted from consideration. Legato. If you play them together legato is just out the window unless coming from a thumb. So why not use the thumb, or three supported with the thumb- if you're sure that physical legato isn't needed? When you can't join anyway, there are way better options than 45.

I use four with five for the octaves at the end of the black key etude and in many black key octaves. Even Richter does it in the the revolutionary etude. This type of octave is the only place in which it is a normal technique. But if it interferes with legato (in a situation where the octaves are less individually articulated) then I use legato fingering for the upper notes. If it's not legato, 45 is my default for all black key octaves. But in single line melodies, it just makes no sense. It doesn't allow legato and there are better fingers available if you're not playing legato.

[iansinclair]

I knew there was a reason I was an organist...

But.

Now I'm not -- I sort of claim to be a pianist.  May I suggest that the critical ingredient is not how much force you can press the key with -- this isn't a carillon here -- but how fast?  And there really isn't a good reason why, with practice, one can't get very nearly as much speed out of 5 as one can out of 4.  Not that striking the key with two fingers at once might not be needed, once in a while, but in my view really practicing to get 5 up to speed is surely worth the effort.

[nyiregyhazi]

I knew there was a reason I was an organist...

But.

Now I'm not -- I sort of claim to be a pianist.  May I suggest that the critical ingredient is not how much force you can press the key with -- this isn't a carillon here -- but how fast?  And there really isn't a good reason why, with practice, one can't get very nearly as much speed out of 5 as one can out of 4.  Not that striking the key with two fingers at once might not be needed, once in a while, but in my view really practicing to get 5 up to speed is surely worth the effort.

I agree that attention should be paid to 5, but it's interesting that a pianist of Richter's hand size and calibre used this technique. As I recall, he may even have gone all out with a 3 in the mix too. As a technique for voicing ,it gives something totally different. And it stops pianists from snatching at a key with poor timing, in a futile bid to move it faster. It doesn't feel fast at all when you use this technique, which provides a valuable lesson for any fingering- you don't need to strain or necessarily even try to move fast in order to achieve a full rounded tone. Trying to move a key fast is usually a recipe for disaster- with poor snatched timing. There's minimal perception of speed in a healthy transmission of energy.

[czernyragtimepianoplayer]

I'm right handed, so as it turns out naturally my left hand is weaker, and my left hand fingers are also weaker than my right hand....  Particularly my left hand fingers 4 & 5.  So, I often play/ practice/study about half of my routine each day, except Sundays my off day, with H.S., that's "Hands Separately", and that way I can FOCUS my left hand on getting much more FOCUSED development.  I also do the same with my right hand, play it alone, I play BOTH hands alone.  I play my left hand alone be itself to CONCENTRATE & FOCUS and really better be able to hear 'how' my left hand is progressing in strength of sound and quality....  I do the same with my right hand, but mostly with my left.  I use some Hanon, and some Aloys Schmitt Op.16 studies and Hermann Berens Op.89 i'm pretty sure these will help you all out there alot, the thing to do is play both H.S., to FOCUS on each hand SEPARATELY, each finger SEPARATELY, for gaining full control over all 10 fingers in both hands!